Mountian climbing in Dec, surprise, surprise

[FredGarvin]

It varies quite a lot between aircraft. For Herks it's around $5,000 an hour, but for Buff's it's about 10 times that.

That's why I said that was dollars per OUR flight hours. Not anyone else's.

Not true, my friend! I previously mentioned the "real-world training," and that training can prove invaluable later on, particular during combat conditions, when the people who're being rescued are our own soldiers, or downed airmen. These "idiots" are actually a golden opportunity. The military actually pays big bucks to create real world scenarios for our various forces to hone their skills for combat. When you're job is rescuing people, all rescues are considered valuable training of the kind you'll never find in a classroom.

As I said, rescuers live for this. It's what they do.

I know - I am one of them.

Yeah. And if you had a family and kids waiting for you to get home, that relied on you, you would/SHOULD have second and third thoughts about putting your neck on the line to rescue someone that put themselves in that bad position. If it is a freak accident like a fall or something along those lines that no one could have foreseen, then more power to them and go get them.

I used to do this quite a bit on Mt. Ranier in WA. The only people I call idiots in this are the people who NEED the rescuing, especially after what can be termed as negligence or bravado on their part. I am well aware of what we did for training and what was done for real. The big difference in training is that it is controlled. Also, there are many times where people who are not trained use these for an excuse for training and bad things happen. The UH-60 video on Mt. Hood Ivan posted is a perfect example.

Pushing a boat crew to get the most they can, IMO, is not the same as some climbers ignoring warnings of weather or avalanche just so they can get to the top of a mountain for a pretty view. There are people's livelihoods at stake in the former.

 

[FredGarvin]

2. The negative impact on the public opinion of these kinds of adventures, and those who do them, that is caused by the 'idiots' who are clearly unprepared or incompetent. Dick Cheney as a hunter, the insane pile up on Mt. Everest detailed by Krakauer, etc.

I always love bringing up JFK Jr. too.

These damage their respective sports and make it more likely that silly regulations (like the recent legislation -- thankfully repealed -- in Maryland requiring all boaters to have PFD's on at all times above deck, even at anchor), are passed that are ineffectual, unfundable, unenforceable, endlessly bureaucratic, and needlessly freedom limiting.

I agree that they do sometimes end up in the stupid territory legislation wise. That being said, I could probably find more times where it has done good more than it has been silly. In my state, it took a whole lot of people getting killed and injured because of young kids driving jet skis. Finally they put out a law that one has to be 16 (IIRC). Granted, how enforceable is it? Eh...50-50 if you ask me. But it did do a lot of good in weeding out the people who did take it seriously.

 

[Pattonias]

You have really missed the point sorry, it is not the rescuers that I have trouble with, it is the fools who take unnecessary risks for no good reason. Why should these supposedly experienced mountain climbers climb in December when it is well known that the weather at the mountain tops is highly unpredictable and can change in just a few minutes. On top of that these guys had the bothered to look at the weather could have known that we were going to see a change for the worse. Well now they are all dead (or very likely) yet the brave volunteers are out there risking their lives. That is what I object to.

As for sea rescue if those in need of help are fishermen doing their life's work I have no trouble with helping them. On the other hand if it is some landlubber that wants to take his 12' open boat with an outboard motor out just see the 30' waves, I say let Davy Jones have him, and give him a Darwin award.

Perhaps if these guys realized that when they leave the pavement that there is no help to bring them home they would either not leave the pavement or at the very least be prepared to get themselves back if trouble strikes.

Rescue efforts are not cheap, they consume taxpayers money just because some fool wants to have fun. Not on my watch.

I agree. Their should be a waiver signed before setting foot on the mountain in dangerous weather. The rescuers should not have to risk their lives because you thought it would be fun to climb the mountain during the riskier part of the year. Once the weather clears up then the rescue will commence, but not while the same elements that trapped you on the mountain are hampering and endangering your rescuers who are coming up after you.

I would equate this to a Deep-Forest-Bon-Fire club. If they have their deep forest bonfire during the hot/dry summer months they would be charged with arson when they burn down the forest. The weight of responsibility for the fire is on the fire starter. The weight of recovery is on the state and the firefighters who have to try and stop the fire.
(This is a hypothetical club, I'm pretty sure there is no deep-forest-bon-fire club.)

 

[Sorry!]

I agree. Their should be a waiver signed before setting foot on the mountain in dangerous weather. The rescuers should not have to risk their lives because you thought it would be fun to climb the mountain during the riskier part of the year. Once the weather clears up then the rescue will commence, but not while the same elements that trapped you on the mountain are hampering and endangering your rescuers who are coming up after you.

I would equate this to a Deep-Forest-Bon-Fire club. If they have their deep forest bonfire during the hot/dry summer months they would be charged with arson when they burn down the forest. The weight of responsibility for the fire is on the fire starter. The weight of recovery is on the state and the firefighters who have to try and stop the fire.
(This is a hypothetical club, I'm pretty sure there is no deep-forest-bon-fire club.)

I am quite sure that the rescuers do not head out into situations which will immediately pose a danger to them... like going out into a blizzard. They of course wait until after. However some volunteer rescuers may travel off into a blizzard to rescue the people. As has already been pointed out several times in this thread though this is their choice, they want to go give help to the stupid people.

 

[mugaliens]

Their should be a waiver signed before setting foot on the mountain in dangerous weather. The rescuers should not have to risk their lives because you thought it would be fun to climb the mountain during the riskier part of the year. Once the weather clears up then the rescue will commence, but not while the same elements that trapped you on the mountain are hampering and endangering your rescuers who are coming up after you.

Half a million people will climb a 14-er in 2010. Perhaps three times that many will hike somewhere above 10,000 in Colorado's backcountry, which is very large, spread out, and easily accessible from hundreds of roads.

Any attempt to implement such a program will cost sums of money vastly greater than the cost of funding the few rescues which are required.

Many, in their own hubris, continue to use the word "stupid" instead of more appropriate terms, such as "ill-prepared," "inexperienced," "over-extended," and even "ignorant." The latter, while being the least polite, doesn't dispair another's intellect, but remains a serious statement about their lack of knowledge.

One reviewer of the book, "Colorado 14er Disasters: Victims of the Game," said something very pertinant about a fellow reviewer's comment he disparagingly entitled "Morons in the Mountains." I'm sharing it with you, here:

"I have to take issue with the reviewer below who titled his review, "Morons in the Mountains" I'm sure most people, including the experts, who have spent time on the 14ers or other high Colorado peaks, have made errors or have had at least one close call. Taking risks is part of the nature of climbing. It's very easy to do Monday morning quarterbacking when climbing accidents are involved. No doubt, hubris and human error are the primary causes of climbing accidents, and this cautionary book may well help 14er enthusiasts avoid disastrous situations. But let's not reduce tragic deaths in the mountains to the Darwin Awards. Imagine how a family member or friend of one of the victims feels, reading your clever title."​

Or, for that matter, disparaging adjectives like "stupid."

 

[Integral]

Were I the dictator there would be no winter rescue, you go in, you get yourself out. They should be required to carry a beacon for spring time body recovery.

I am quoting my OP just to point out that I. as dictator of world did not consider the feelings of the rescuers. It is not that I wish to rob the rescuers of opportunities for daring do it is that I wish to discourage trips into the wilderness in the harsh weather seasons. In most mountainous areas weather can develop and change very rapidly creating life threatening conditions which no amount of preparation can guarantee survival. The knowledge that someone will come and haul you out in the event of difficulties ENCOURAGES recreational adventurers to attempt poorly considered expeditions.

Simple rule, No rescues. Go in, do what you want, get yourself out.

BTW, I am a native Oregonian who spent his teenage years hiking and camping in the woods and mountains of Southern Oregon. So I am not blind to the draw of the wilderness, I just think people ought to use their heads for more then a hat holder.

 

[drankin]

If I were a mountain climber type, I would do what I could to rescue them without getting myself killed. No matter how stupid they might be. It's easy to call them stupid when they fail. But how many people have done the same and been less equipt? How many have done the same thing and came down just fine?

One solution for society "bearing the financial burden" of rescueing stranded hikers that got in over their head is to NOT have a socially funded rescue service. I mean what's the point of funding one? And then to complain about the cost when they actually do their job? Makes no sense to me.

 

[Pattonias]

Well, as of yesterday, they have called off the search. They found the body of one of the companions and the other two are presumed dead. It's a very sad thing. I do appreciate the efforts of the rescuers regardless of what happened.