My girlfriend, her family, and human dysfunctionality in general

[ee1978]

I've always had an interest in physical sciences. As my username implies, I have a degree (two, actually) in Electrical Engineering. Several years ago, I browsed some of the threads here, but haven't been back, until encountering PF again today. I've had a girlfriend for the past 18 1/2 months, and we've been having a lot of quarrels lately, so I was using Google to gain some insight into female psychology in particular and human psychology in general. I found https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=82221" thread today after doing a search on how social skills are valued.

The thread is from 2005, and is about nerdyness and Asperger's Syndrome. I have some of the traits of AS, and some people have told me that I may have a very mild form of AS, so after reading that thread, I realized that I have a lot in common with many of the posters here. I tend to be picky when it comes to socializing, as I only click with a small percentage of the population. From reading that thread, it would seem that a lot of other posters here could say the same thing. I have met her nuclear family and her extended family several times. She has an uncle who has a doctorate in Physics, and I have tended to converse with him during the larger events, such as her sister's wedding last May. A few months ago, my girlfriend told me that her parents don't like me, because I haven't talked with them enough, due to my tendency to find the person with whom I have the most in common during social events. They have formed a very negative opinion of me, having assumed various bad things about me. As a consequence, my girlfriend was told that I'm not welcome at any more family events.

On the other hand, her family seems to love her sister's husband. He doesn't have any education beyond high school (not that this is necessarily horrible, in and of itself, but I'll come back to that later), is fairly social and talkative, and comes off as not very profound. He was working as an airplane mechanic for several years, but quit that job because it was too stressful (he had a back injury in the Navy several years ago), in favor of an easier job at a regional airport that is actually close to my girlfriend's parents' house. That lasted for about two months (during which time he was living in his in-laws' house without his wife being there, something that I find to be quite odd), and for various reasons, he quit that, and is now unemployed, with my girlfriend's sister supporting him (she has a master's degree). Right now, they're all at my girlfriend's parents' house for Easter weekend.

I'm not religious at all, so I don't mind being alone on Easter, but I do mind being excluded from my girlfriend's life when her sister's husband is not. We give each other plenty of space, generally only seeing each other on weekends. It's the principle here that really irks me. The parents love the sister's husband, because he's social, and perhaps because he was a Navy swimmer, and those are things that the dysfunctional human herd worships, even though such things have not given us our dominance of this planet. We all know what has given us this dominance. Yet, apparently, the sister's husband's lack of education, mediocre intelligence, and current deadbeat status are less of a black mark against him than my moderate social skills (which are much better than they used to be) are a black mark against me. The irony is that her nuclear family is anything but dysfunctional: all four of them are well-educated (my girlfriend is an economist, and is nerdy, like I am, but more on that later). But, I think that they are all, in varying degrees, dysfunctional as individuals, in large part due to their bigotry (yes, bigotry, because if prejudice against homosexuals-who cannot help being the way they are-constitutes bigotry, then prejudice against introverts, nerds, AS people, etc. for their neurological dispositions is bigotry too, especially in light of all that we have done for civilization).

My girlfriend feels caught in the middle. On the one hand, she thinks that her parents are being too harsh. On the other hand, she has criticized me because she doesn't think that I put forth enough effort in getting to know her parents. As I said earlier, she is nerdy like I am, but she is also much more social than I am. I suspect this is because her two X chromosomes provide a counteracting influence. I have tried to explain to her my thoughts on this topic. I have told her that social skills are moderately important, and that my notion of social skills entails basic civility and politeness, along with the ability to carry on a conversation with one person, or with a small group, and does not necessarily require simultaneously schmoozing with thirty-seven people with one arm tied behind one's back, like some bartender or politician. I have told her that social skills may have been a necessary yet insufficient condition for the development of civilization, as wolves and other social mammals obviously lack civilization, and that, clearly, the key ingredients to civilization are those that people like us provide.* However, she has continued to criticize me for allegedly not having made enough of an effort to impress her parents.

In light of all of this, I'd like to leave you with a few questions. First, can female nerds ever genuinely understand male nerds, in light of their female nature probably pulling them in the direction opposite to the direction that their nerd nature pulls them? Second, do you agree that humanity suffers from significant dysfunctionality, with its over-valuing of things like social skills and its under-valuing of things like creativity, ingenuity, and intelligence, as salient examples of that dysfunctionality? Third, do you think that the world would be a better place if everyone was like us?

*"If the world was left to you socialites, nothing would get done and we would still be in caves talking to each other."

Temple Grandin

 

[rootX]

. I've had a girlfriend for the past 18 1/2 months, and we've been having a lot of quarrels lately, so I was using Google to gain some insight into female psychology in particular and human psychology in general.

I have told her that social skills may have been a necessary yet insufficient condition for the development of civilization, as wolves and other social mammals obviously lack civilization, and that, clearly, the key ingredients to civilization are those that people like us provide.* However, she has continued to criticize me for allegedly not having made enough of an effort to impress her parents.

I suspect this is because her two X chromosomes provide a counteracting influence.

I think your approach here is extremely wrong!

You don't need to have high education to have a smooth relationship however social skills are essential.

 

[lisab]

Root is right, social skills are important. I wouldn't discount them as less useful than technical skills. For example, they're clearly important in families, which evolutionarily speaking were pretty damned important.

But I recognize the disconnect you having with your the family, and to a lesser extent your girlfriend. I think it's going to take effort from both sides to find common ground here. IMO, it's wrong for the family to ban you for no reason other than a personality quirk.

Despite their lack of sensitivity, you have to do your part too, to work on this. You're going to have to find tools to deal with them. Perhaps things like talking with them one-on-one in quieter settings, or finding ways to help them (fixing their computers, e.g.).

I'm not an Aspie so I'm not a good source of ideas for you, I'm afraid. But there are many Aspie forums, I'm sure they have ideas and tools for how to deal with NTs. (Btw I'm not diagnosing you as Aspie, nor them as NT.)

Welcome (back) to PF!

 

[ee1978]

I think your approach here is extremely wrong!

You don't need to have high education to have a smooth relationship however social skills are essential.

Do they deserve as much emphasis as they are receiving?

I think that education is essential, but some of the people who harp on social skills being essential don't seem to give a flying copulation about education being treated as essential. And yes, I'm aware of the saying that two wrongs don't make a right.

Root is right, social skills are important. I wouldn't discount them as less useful than technical skills. For example, they're clearly important in families, which evolutionarily speaking were pretty damned important.

But I recognize the disconnect you having with your the family, and to a lesser extent your girlfriend. I think it's going to take effort from both sides to find common ground here. IMO, it's wrong for the family to ban you for no reason other than a personality quirk.

Despite their lack of sensitivity, you have to do your part too, to work on this. You're going to have to find tools to deal with them. Perhaps things like talking with them one-on-one in quieter settings, or finding ways to help them (fixing their computers, e.g.).

I'm not an Aspie so I'm not a good source of ideas for you, I'm afraid. But there are many Aspie forums, I'm sure they have ideas and tools for how to deal with NTs. (Btw I'm not diagnosing you as Aspie, nor them as NT.)

Welcome (back) to PF!

Thanks for the welcome.

I've never been diagnosed with AS. I just have some of the diagnostic traits. I'm not even convinced that AS is a valid concept, a possibility that was raised in the thread that I linked to in the OP. The possibility raised in that thread, that the AS concept may be nothing more than a malicious attempt to demoralize people with certain traits, intrigues me.

Families were, and are, important to wolves, too. I don't envy wolves. My girlfriend has told me that eventually they will cave, if she and I stay together, because if we stay together, we'll have children, and they'll be forced (by their emotions) to set their bigotry against me aside.

What do you think about the three questions at the end of the OP?

 

[lisab]

First, can female nerds ever genuinely understand male nerds, in light of their female nature probably pulling them in the direction opposite to the direction that their nerd nature pulls them?

OK let me be clear, we're just talking nerds and not Aspies. Yes, I think female nerds and even non-nerds can understand male nerds. See, I don't see being a nerd and having social skills mutually exclusive.

Second, do you agree that humanity suffers from significant dysfunctionality, with its over-valuing of things like social skills and its under-valuing of things like creativity, ingenuity, and intelligence, as salient examples of that dysfunctionality?

From an evolutionary perspective, no I don't agree. Look at us humans, we're everywhere, the planet is crawling with us...over 6.5 billion of us ! Success as a species...we're doing it right.

Third, do you think that the world would be a better place if everyone was like us?

Interesting question. Wasn't there a Twilight Zone where some guy wished that everyone were like him, and it came true? As I recall it didn't end well for him.

But do really like the idea of everyone being more accepting of science, and despite that Twilight Zone episode I do think we'd be better off if there were more scientists (just not *everyone*).

 

[ee1978]

OK let me be clear, we're just talking nerds and not Aspies. Yes, I think female nerds and even non-nerds can understand male nerds. See, I don't see being a nerd and having social skills mutually exclusive.

The idea was put forth, in that thread, that that which is referred to as "AS" may be synonymous with "nerdy".

From an evolutionary perspective, no I don't agree. Look at us humans, we're everywhere, the planet is crawling with us...over 6.5 billion of us ! Success as a species...we're doing it right.

What is your opinion, from the perspective of where we could be now if we weren't plagued by certain things, as opposed to from a perspective of mere survival?

Carl Sagan speculated on where we'd be if mysticism didn't displace early science in ancient Greece. That's the first example that came to mind.

Interesting question. Wasn't there a Twilight Zone where some guy wished that everyone were like him, and it came true? As I recall it didn't end well for him.

But do really like the idea of everyone being more accepting of science, and despite that Twilight Zone episode I do think we'd be better off if there were more scientists (just not *everyone*).

Fair enough.

I would like to add my thoughts on the importance that even some nerdy people give to social skills. To me, it appears to be giving into a form of mob rule when people (especially nerdy people) indicate that social skills are important, ipso facto, because that is what society demands. The message seems to be "Do as the majority wants you to do. Conformity is the key.", which conjures up images of lynch mobs and people being burned at the stake. Do you understand why I detest the idea of treating something as great just because the mob demands that I should?

A lot of people who are obsessed with social skills are scum: certain politicians, psychopaths who harangue those with fewer social skills, etc. Why should one want to be associated, even indirectly, with such riff raff? To me, that seems like appeasement: "Be as 'normal' and as social as you can be so that you can fit in with pompous, self-serving liars and mean-spirited jerks."

 

[cristo]

If you want an honest opinion, I think you are focussing far too much on education and "degrees" when you are describing these people (for example why does it matter if this other guy left education after high school?). If you do this in real life, you will come off as incredibly pompous, especially if you go around saying things like "[he] comes off as not very profound". You must have been doing this quite a bit to have been banned from her family's social events.

As for the importance of social skills, you need to get over your gripes and start talking to people. Social skills are very important in all walks of life -- even if you plan on staying in the academic world!

 

[Andre]

You bring up interesting points, ee1978, albeit that the multitude of subjects is somewhat confusing. Trying to summarize:

Maybe I am aspie or maybe only a nerd?

Are nerd and aspie equivalent?

Can nerds/aspies of different genders understand each other?

Why is there a prevalence of social skills?

Where would the human society have been, if it wasn't plagued by certain things (maybe things like herd instinct, groupthink, moral panic, decision taking by fear rather than rationality, rivalry etc)

I have some ideas about all of these, but going into detail in any specific would maybe obscure the thread.

As for your interaction with those parents, I know what you are talking about and indeed there is not a lot of choice, try to overcome your feelings and force yourself to do social. I managed to do that and even had a career in a place where social skills were predominant. However, I never felt comfortable.

Anyway I may just be rather introvert, while some aspie-like symptoms I had in my childhood seemed to have vanished.

 

[Lichdar]

I think you're a lot more focused on what you think is right and wrong than actually resolving the issue to your satisfaction(a harmonious relationship with your SO's others). I'm not disputing your arguments, which are in many cases compelling, but ultimately, social skills are a necessity and being defensive about it won't help.

One could also argue that consuming of meat is both unethical and inefficient and that it can be argued to directly contribute to human starvation - this doesn't change a single damn thing about the fact that people are still going to eat steaks and if you run around complaining about people who do to, you will rapidly become very unpopular.

Remember this in the end:

"The True Gentleman is the man whose conduct proceeds from good will and an acute sense of propriety, and whose self-control is equal to all emergencies; who does not make the poor man conscious of his poverty, the obscure man of his obscurity, or any man of his inferiority or deformity...a man with whom honor is sacred and virtue safe."

You may indeed be better or superior; but it is still crass to call attention to that fact.

 

[ee1978]

If you want an honest opinion, I think you are focussing far too much on education and "degrees" when you are describing these people (for example why does it matter if this other guy left education after high school?). If you do this in real life, you will come off as incredibly pompous, especially if you go around saying things like "[he] comes off as not very profound". You must have been doing this quite a bit to have been banned from her family's social events.

I have only focused on education and degrees because of their regressive attitudes.

As for the importance of social skills, you need to get over your gripes and start talking to people.

I do talk to people when I have a specific, practical goal in mind. In recent years, when I've been single, I would go places and strike up conversations with women, despite me being horrible with such things when I was younger. I have used social skills in job interviews. I have been told that I am quite good at mimicing the herd when I need to be.

Why should I practice mimicry with possible future in-laws?

Social skills are very important in all walks of life -- even if you plan on staying in the academic world!

Are social skills the most important aspect of human civilization? Do social skills trump education? Social skills are treated as if they tower over everything else in importance. If that really is the case, then how are we better off than wolves?

 

[ee1978]

You bring up interesting points, ee1978, albeit that the multitude of subjects is somewhat confusing. Trying to summarize:

Maybe I am aspie or maybe only a nerd?

Are nerd and aspie equivalent?

Can nerds/aspies of different genders understand each other?

Why is there a prevalence of social skills?

That is a reasonably accurate summary. I will add "Is humanity dysfunctional for placing so much emphasis on social skills, to the detriment of other human abilities?"

Where would the human society have been, if it wasn't plagued by certain things (maybe things like herd instinct, groupthink, moral panic, decision taking by fear rather than rationality, rivalry etc)

Exactly. Clearly, humanity's social traits have been a source of much misery. Religion is but one example.

I have some ideas about all of these, but going into detail in any specific would maybe obscure the thread.

I won't mind.

As for your interaction with those parents, I know what you are talking about and indeed there is not a lot of choice, try to overcome your feelings and force yourself to do social. I managed to do that and even had a career in a place where social skills were predominant. However, I never felt comfortable.

It's hard for me to muster the motivation to mimic a "normal" person. It feels like I'm betraying myself when I do it, so there has to be a very good reason for me to do it. My girlfriend's parents are not

1) offering me employment, nor

2) offering sex (I am heterosexual, so that leaves the dad out, and the mom is quite good-looking, but even if she was offering me sex, and I lacked ethics, I still wouldn't do it because I am reasonably sure that it would get back to my girlfriend), nor

3) anything else of value

So why should I do something that I find to be very tiring and humiliating when I don't have a very good reason to do so?

Anyway I may just be rather introvert, while some aspie-like symptoms I had in my childhood seemed to have vanished.

I can say the same.

 

[ee1978]

I think you're a lot more focused on what you think is right and wrong than actually resolving the issue to your satisfaction(a harmonious relationship with your SO's others). I'm not disputing your arguments, which are in many cases compelling, but ultimately, social skills are a necessity and being defensive about it won't help.

If the world is less than ideal, it should be changed. Other injustices, such as the treatment of homosexuals, have been at least partly remedied.

One could also argue that consuming of meat is both unethical and inefficient and that it can be argued to directly contribute to human starvation - this doesn't change a single damn thing about the fact that people are still going to eat steaks and if you run around complaining about people who do to, you will rapidly become very unpopular.

Heterosexuals who advocated for homosexuals' rights to be respected and for them to be treated well, were very unpopular a few decades ago.

Remember this in the end:

"The True Gentleman is the man whose conduct proceeds from good will and an acute sense of propriety, and whose self-control is equal to all emergencies; who does not make the poor man conscious of his poverty, the obscure man of his obscurity, or any man of his inferiority or deformity...a man with whom honor is sacred and virtue safe."

You may indeed be better or superior; but it is still crass to call attention to that fact.

I brought my education and intelligence into this because if my moderate social skills are horrible, then, to any sane people, the sister's husband's current deadbeat status should be ultra-horrible.

Is that clear enough?

 

[Mentallic]

Are social skills the most important aspect of human civilization? Do social skills trump education? Social skills are treated as if they tower over everything else in importance. If that really is the case, then how are we better off than wolves?

No, but it helps to build a bridge between you and her family. You need a connection in some way, and since that connection isn't going to be through academics, there is only but one other way.
Would you enjoy it if an athlete only ever spoke about sports to you, and belittled you at every turn because you weren't as good as him? In his world, sporting would be the most important trait, and for good reason too in its own right - cavemen needed to be fit and strong to hunt efficiently.

Anyway, you're not taking the right approach here. Good social skills are necessary to be popular amongst the group, but some social skills will get you by (and by this I mean the ability to act appropriately in each setting, which you've failed to do with her family). Don't frown upon it, just accept it.

2) offering sex (I am heterosexual, so that leaves the dad out, and the mom is quite good-looking, but even if she was offering me sex, and I lacked ethics, I still wouldn't do it because I am reasonably sure that it would get back to my girlfriend),
...
So why should I do something that I find to be very tiring and humiliating when I don't have a very good reason to do so?

lol a very unappealing attitude right there.
So being on your girlfriend's family's good side isn't a good enough reason to not act like a snob around them? Are you here to get advice or just to complain about them?

 

[cobalt124]

Welcome to PF. You have come to a good place for advice, but you are showing signs of not wanting to listen to it. So my first piece of advice is to take heed of what has been posted here so far. It is sound advice. My advice you can take or leave. From my own personal experience, you approach will not work. You will not be able to intellectualise your way through this, its relationships, its different. Like it or not, we need social skills to get on with people, talking is the thing we all have in common. The advice given in this thread previously is good advice.

So why should I do something that I find to be very tiring and humiliating when I don't have a very good reason to do so?

Why humiliating? And would not a very good reason to do so be for your girlfriends sake?

 

[Antiphon]

You left out The really important information to the issue.

1). How much money do you make? ( don't give a number, but is it more than $70k which would fit your two degrees, or is it less than $40 k which would make it hard for you to give her a future?)

2) how old are you and how old is she?

3) When do you plan to propose? It's been 18 months and her parents may think you can't commit.

4) Sometimes a jovial mechanic who makes his family happy is a better mate than a brainy engineer who stresses his family out. Which are you and which is he? (by your family I mean your girlfriend, their daughter.)

 

[Lichdar]

They are potentially offering respect, which evidently you seek as part of your logical belief toward "fairness" in how much they value your sister-in-law's ex versus you and your respective values to society. If you didn't then you shouldn't even care - assuming that could not fit into the company of apes because you did not exhibit proper behavior, you most likely would not care. Since you do care and you have extended this analogy to the entire human race, then it may be helpful for you to understand from their perspective.

In marketing, they always teach you to consider the product that you are selling from your customer's perspective. In this case, you are selling 'yourself', your personality and attitude; what is the compelling benefit that they would gain from 'spending time' with you? It is a simple question of time expenditure versus reward here.

Maybe someone who makes them happy and laugh would be of much higher value than someone who condemns them for their values and makes them uncomfortable?

 

[ee1978]

No, but it helps to build a bridge between you and her family. You need a connection in some way, and since that connection isn't going to be through academics, there is only but one other way.

Eventually, if she and I stay together, they will be forced, by their own emotional need to see their grandchildren, to overcome their bigotry against me.

The oppressive, backward, dysfunctional majority has had their way for long enough. I refuse to play their game unless their is a damned good reason (sex with someone new when I'm single, employment when I graduated from college, etc.).

Read what you and others are telling me to do! It's like telling a homosexual to eschew his lisp, dress like "normal" people, stop having sex with other men and only have sex with people of the opposite gender from now on, etc. If society has progressed to the point where it no longer expects them to conform, why does it still expect us to conform?

Would you enjoy it if an athlete only ever spoke about sports to you, and belittled you at every turn because you weren't as good as him? In his world, sporting would be the most important trait, and for good reason too in its own right -

I wouldn't care, because in principle, I could be a better athlete than him with sufficiently advanced technology, something that we have given the world.

cavemen needed to be fit and strong to hunt efficiently.

What relevance does that have to today?

Anyway, you're not taking the right approach here. Good social skills are necessary to be popular amongst the group, but some social skills will get you by (and by this I mean the ability to act appropriately in each setting, which you've failed to do with her family). Don't frown upon it, just accept it.

If you read the entire OP, then you saw where I stated that I do think that social skills have their place, and that my notion of good social skills entails politeness and civility, but not necessarily acting like a politician.

lol a very unappealing attitude right there.
So being on your girlfriend's family's good side isn't a good enough reason to not act like a snob around them?

They're the ones who have chosen to not be on my good side by not accepting me. I'm not demanding that they become like me, but they're doing just that with me, so how can I be deemed to be in the wrong, by any stretch of the imagination?

I have conversed with my girlfriend's uncle, the physicist, because I naturally gravitate towards people with whom I have the most in common, during social events. It is not my natural inclination to pretend to be something that I'm not, unless, as I said, their is a damned good reason for me to do so.

Are you here to get advice or just to complain about them?

I am here to discuss this particular situation and how it pertains to humanity in general.

 

[ee1978]

Welcome to PF.

Thanks.

You have come to a good place for advice, but you are showing signs of not wanting to listen to it.

Just as a homosexual with self-respect would not dream of acting heterosexual just to make troglodyte bigots happy, unless he had a damned good reason, such as his immediate physical safety.

So my first piece of advice is to take heed of what has been posted here so far. It is sound advice. My advice you can take or leave. From my own personal experience, you approach will not work. You will not be able to intellectualise your way through this, its relationships, its different. Like it or not, we need social skills to get on with people, talking is the thing we all have in common. The advice given in this thread previously is good advice.

She promised me that her parents' opinions will not influence her decision to stay with me and eventually marry, if that's what we both want. Therefore, they are going to have to give up their bigotry if she and I marry (or else forget about interacting with the grandchildren, which, of course, they won't do).

Why humiliating?

It's humiliating to conform to the ways of people who passionately hate you. That should not require further explanation.

And would not a very good reason to do so be for your girlfriends sake?

See above. She already accepts me and will not let their opinions interfere with our relationship.

 

[Antiphon]

You may have to accept the fact that you don't have what it takes to pull off this relationship.

See a shrink. They can help you overcome your obvious denial and give you exercises to help you fit in better socially.

From what I can see here, her parents have the right attitude. I wouldn't want you dating my daughter either.

You need to man up already and seek the professional help you need instead of seeking validation under the guise of cerebral discourse.

 

[ee1978]

You left out The really important information to the issue.

1). How much money do you make? ( don't give a number, but is it more than $70k which would fit your two degrees, or is it less than $40 k which would make it hard for you to give her a future?)

> 70k

2) how old are you and how old is she?

I turned 33 earlier this year. She will turn 29 in a couple of months.

3) When do you plan to propose? It's been 18 months and her parents may think you can't commit.

If things go well between now and then, I may propose in the summer or fall of 2012.

4) Sometimes a jovial mechanic who makes his family happy is a better mate than a brainy engineer who stresses his family out.

He's not a mechanic any longer. I think that his lack of income, if it hasn't already, will stress the sister out fairly soon.

Which are you and which is he? (by your family I mean your girlfriend, their daughter.)

He's a dumbass. I'm a hardworking, intelligent man, who is kind to everyone, unless given reason to be otherwise, who is loyal to friends, who puts maximum effort into communicating effectively, and who is patient, considerate, thoughtful, and loving when in a relationship. I don't see why you'd think that a "brainy engineer" like me would stress his family out.

 

[Lichdar]

You have made your choice in relation to her family; rather than just making value judgments and seeking be validified by peers, I think you should simply accept that there are consequences associated with your choice. I also believe that you are not operating in an efficient manner if you sought to change them or even to demonstrate your value as a human being to them.

I'm slightly worried that you have stated openly that you are 'kind and intelligent' when your way of expressing it, at least over text, does not seem to immediately convey that. Your method of communicating is clearly not effective, as effectivity can be measured by the results. I'm an arrogant and judgmental bastard with a diagnosed antisocial personality disorder; at least I'm aware of it.

 

[ee1978]

You may have to accept the fact that you don't have what it takes to pull off this relationship.

I have so far, and she has stated that her parents will have no effect on whether or not we marry.

See a shrink.

No.

They can help you overcome your obvious denial

My denial of what?

and give you exercises to help you fit in better socially.

Read more carefully. I have stated, numerous times, that I can fit in socially perfectly well (after years of practice, and tips from a cousin who is a psychologist), but that it is emotionally costly for me, so I only do it sparingly, when I have a very good reason to do so.

From what I can see here, her parents have the right attitude.

Hating someone for not simultaneously schmoozing with a large number of people is unreasonable, to say the least.

I talked with her uncle quite a bit. If that's not good enough, then tough ****.

I wouldn't want you dating my daughter either.

I wouldn't want to date your daughter, unless she takes after her mother, with her mother being a hell of a lot different than you are.

You need to man up already and seek the professional help you need instead of seeking validation under the guise of cerebral discourse.

You need to man up and stop being a bigot.

I dare you to go to some gay pride event and try to sell your conformity excrement sandwich there.

 

[ee1978]

You have made your choice in relation to her family; rather than just making value judgments and seeking be validified by peers, I think you should simply accept that there are consequences associated with your choice.

I have accepted that there will be consequences associated with my choice. If and when we have children, they will lose a lot of face.

I also believe that you are not operating in an efficient manner if you sought to change them or even to demonstrate your value as a human being to them.

Isn't it axiomatic that being human gives me value? Arguably, history's worst tyrants and similar types may not have such value because of very bad deeds that they have committed, but that's another discusion for another day. I haven't done anything remotely close to murder or any of the other things generally considered to strip a human of his or her value.

I'm slightly worried that you have stated openly that you are 'kind and intelligent' when your way of expressing it, at least over text, does not seem to immediately convey that.

Yes, I am angry. Kind people can become angry when provoked.

Your method of communicating is clearly not effective, as effectivity can be measured by the results. I'm an arrogant and judgmental bastard with a diagnosed antisocial personality disorder; at least I'm aware of it.

I'm still with her, so apparently it's effective enough.

 

[Lichdar]

I'm still with her, so apparently it's effective enough.

A lot of abusive jerkwads also have loyal girlfriends, so that argument toward effectivity is minimal. You clearly have the ability to communicate with one or a few people; this, however, does not logically extend to all people by the merits of deductive reasoning.

I have to admit that your almost singular obsession with homosexuality is slightly frightening as well; as an average hetrosexual male, I would find that your anger to a bit beyond what I would expect. I am a person of color and I respond to racism with snideness and sarcasm; if bigotry is ignorance, then there's not much to be accomplished by squabbling with the ignorant.

I do think that you have communication issues and you will benefit from speaking with a therapist. Introspection, also, is always a good thing.

 

[JDStupi]

I can understand your sentiments, but I have a number of observations. First, if you're so intelligent why can't you make this decision yourself? Jean Paul Sartre spoke of how even in seeking advice individuals tend to turn to those people who they feel may very well give them the advice they want. A group of "intelligent" physicists would seemingly be a group who would agree with your anti-social tendencies and give you the advice you want to hear, now that they aren't you are arguing tooth and nail.

Second observation, as everybody else said you are placing value judgements, and you said "How am I not, of course I value being human" well being human doesn't mean being intellligent. Your just unhappy because you feel as though your traits are superior and under-appreciated and would rather a world in which you could be the majority. I see more than a little Will to Power in your actions.

You have to be intelligent enough to realize that not everybody can be as intelligent as you, just as not everybody can be as good at sports or music as the next guy. You also have to realize that before your anything your a human being first, and there is much more to being human than being "intelligent" and "successfull". You rally against "the herd", but all I see is a social deviant who wants the same goals and has the same values as society, but dislikes his under appreciation. You are saing that you are "successfull" and "smart" and "hard-working", you sound like a your trying to "sell yourself".

As un-intelligent as your sister-in-laws husband may be, he may be much more profound than you are. How so? Because again profundity can be a matter of experience, and living, rather than intellectualizing. What if he offers his family hard work and love? Those are some of the most profound things you can offer somebody in a personal relationship. And here you are bitching that he's not worthy of their affections. Your not interested in equality, stop fronting. Your interested in getting your way, if he was the one outcasted you would say "good he's un intelligent etc etc".

Stop pretending to be important or better, stop saying "society shouldn't expect me to do x or y" ...Listen, I hate acting fake, I hate that society is interested in stupid banal crap. So often I just solve the problem, by telling the truth.

That is my piece of advice that you can use, tell the truth. Tell the parents that you aren't good at talking to people and you are sometimes not interested in what people have to say, and it may be your own fault, and you apologize for offending them, but it is something that is a part of you. Just say what's up. You don't like social BS, then tell the truth and keep it real and if that doesn't work, whatever. Keep in mind when I say "tell the truth" I don't mean be a douche and snub the parents and claim your superiority, I mean tell them that you aren't good at socializing.

 

[Mentallic]

That is my piece of advice that you can use, tell the truth. Tell the parents that you aren't good at talking to people and you are sometimes not interested in what people have to say, and it may be your own fault, and you apologize for offending them, but it is something that is a part of you. Just say what's up. You don't like social BS, then tell the truth and keep it real and if that doesn't work, whatever. Keep in mind when I say "tell the truth" I don't mean be a douche and snub the parents and claim your superiority, I mean tell them that you aren't good at socializing.

Mmm... I don't know about this part. A lot of people instinctively connect the dots in such a way as to say that any type of disorder which hinders your ability to act normal is seen as being a retard. You wouldn't want that at all.

 

[ee1978]

A lot of abusive jerkwads also have loyal girlfriends, so that argument toward effectivity is minimal.

That does not constitute evidence that I'm abusive.

You clearly have the ability to communicate with one or a few people; this, however, does not logically extend to all people by the merits of deductive reasoning.

I have the ability to communicate with most people if I am sufficiently motivated.

I have to admit that your almost singular obsession with homosexuality is slightly frightening as well;

It is a logical comparison. Homosexual rights have grown by leaps and bounds lately. Homosexual rights are a perfect analogue for rights for other oppressed groups, such as introverts, allegedly "AS" people, etc.

as an average hetrosexual male, I would find that your anger to a bit beyond what I would expect. I am a person of color and I respond to racism with snideness and sarcasm; if bigotry is ignorance, then there's not much to be accomplished by squabbling with the ignorant.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but anti-person of color bigots have little to no significant power over your life, correct? The same can't be said for the types of people that I refer to in the OP.

I do think that you have communication issues and you will benefit from speaking with a therapist.

Please elaborate.

Introspection, also, is always a good thing.

I have always been introspective.

 

[ee1978]

I can understand your sentiments, but I have a number of observations. First, if you're so intelligent why can't you make this decision yourself?

I simply want discussion.

Jean Paul Sartre spoke of how even in seeking advice individuals tend to turn to those people who they feel may very well give them the advice they want. A group of "intelligent" physicists would seemingly be a group who would agree with your anti-social tendencies and give you the advice you want to hear, now that they aren't you are arguing tooth and nail.

See immediately above.

Second observation, as everybody else said you are placing value judgements, and you said "How am I not, of course I value being human" well being human doesn't mean being intellligent. Your just unhappy because you feel as though your traits are superior and under-appreciated and would rather a world in which you could be the majority. I see more than a little Will to Power in your actions.

I most certainly did not type the sentence that you put in quotes. Check this thread.

You have to be intelligent enough to realize that not everybody can be as intelligent as you, just as not everybody can be as good at sports or music as the next guy. You also have to realize that before your anything your a human being first, and there is much more to being human than being "intelligent" and "successfull". You rally against "the herd", but all I see is a social deviant who wants the same goals and has the same values as society, but dislikes his under appreciation. You are saing that you are "successfull" and "smart" and "hard-working", you sound like a your trying to "sell yourself".

I do see the world as less than ideal, and I don't see anything particularly wrong with expressing that opinion. Do you?

As un-intelligent as your sister-in-laws husband may be, he may be much more profound than you are. How so? Because again profundity can be a matter of experience, and living, rather than intellectualizing. What if he offers his family hard work and love? Those are some of the most profound things you can offer somebody in a personal relationship. And here you are bitching that he's not worthy of their affections. Your not interested in equality, stop fronting. Your interested in getting your way, if he was the one outcasted you would say "good he's un intelligent etc etc".

I never indicated that I want anyone to be mistreated. That's not at all incompatible with being angry at those who mistreat others.

Stop pretending to be important or better, stop saying "society shouldn't expect me to do x or y" ...Listen, I hate acting fake, I hate that society is interested in stupid banal crap. So often I just solve the problem, by telling the truth.

That is my piece of advice that you can use, tell the truth. Tell the parents that you aren't good at talking to people and you are sometimes not interested in what people have to say, and it may be your own fault, and you apologize for offending them, but it is something that is a part of you. Just say what's up. You don't like social BS, then tell the truth and keep it real and if that doesn't work, whatever. Keep in mind when I say "tell the truth" I don't mean be a douche and snub the parents and claim your superiority, I mean tell them that you aren't good at socializing.

See above. They will eventually be forced by circumstances to be more reasonable.

 

[ee1978]

Mmm... I don't know about this part. A lot of people instinctively connect the dots in such a way as to say that any type of disorder which hinders your ability to act normal is seen as being a retard. You wouldn't want that at all.

First, anyone who associates a person of high intelligence with retardation, is a retard.

Second, "any type of disorder which hinders your ability to act normal" looks like a tautology.

 

[DaveC426913]

I'm having some trouble figuring out exactly what's being done to whom.

I brought my education and intelligence into this because if my moderate social skills are horrible, then, to any sane people, the sister's husband's current deadbeat status should be ultra-horrible.

Is that clear enough?

No, it's not clear enough. You seem to have conflated two independent concepts in that one sentence. How does education and intelligence versus not having a job equate with social skills?

It should be fairly obvious that her and her parents regard social skills as an important facet of a person whereas education or income less so.


Also, can you go over the bigotry aspect again? I missed it. How are they bigoted? Something about Aspies and nerds? They stated they dislike them as a group?

You need to man up and stop being a bigot. I dare you to go to some gay pride event and try to sell your conformity excrement sandwich there.

Wait. That's twice you've attempted to parallel your situation with that of gays. Why do you feel your argument is not strong enough to stand on its own without erecting a strawman?

 

[Lichdar]

That does not constitute evidence that I'm abusive.

It doesn't; it consitutes evidence that your metric is invalid.

I have the ability to communicate with most people if I am sufficiently motivated.

Res ipsa loquitur. Either you do not value communication with your family in law or you are incapable. It seems that it is the former.

It is a logical comparison. Homosexual rights have grown by leaps and bounds lately. Homosexual rights are a perfect analogue for rights for other oppressed groups, such as introverts, allegedly "AS" people, etc.

Illogical analogue of sexual orientation choice to mental disability.

I have a disability that prevents me from emphathizing with others in a normal fashion, causes me to lie regularly, increases my tendency to manipulate and virtually removes my ability to see how things such as human life ought to have instrinsic value. I believe it makes me more capable than most; I still do not go around announcing it to others.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but anti-person of color bigots have little to no significant power over your life, correct?

Are you kidding?

Please elaborate.

A therapist will assist you in developing strategies to more effectively communicate with others in a way, and perhaps expose you to different methods of thinking. You seem strongly convinced that yours is the only appropriate one; as you can see from resistance even here in your peer group, it is not so.

I have always been introspective.

If you say so. You do not seem to admit to any error but slams almost everyone else.

 

[cristo]

First, anyone who associates a person of high intelligence with retardation, is a retard.

It's likely this pompous attitude that her parents dislike.

 

[Mentallic]

First, anyone who associates a person of high intelligence with retardation, is a retard.

I'm not talking about high intelligence, I'm speaking of the fact that JDStupi was suggesting you tell them about your social inadequacies. This could be seen as retardation.

Second, "any type of disorder which hinders your ability to act normal" looks like a tautology.

Not all disorders make people seem different. Mental (extending to physical disorder) and social disorders are the most obvious which people conclude as being a retard.

 

[Femme_physics]

I'm sorry but this is very annoying to me. Are they paying you for service that you have to be extra nice to them? wtf?

On the one hand, she thinks that her parents are being too harsh.

And what about THEM trying to get to know you better? Why is it always you having to do the work? Why is it that you can't be the "harsh" one and judge them like they judge you? What gave them the courtroom and gavel?

And besides, if my parents didn't like my bf I'd tell them to deal with it. He's my bf and I love him. Their damn problem.

As far as that guy they worship, why do you give a damn? I hope you'd stop grovelling for what people you don't even respect like.

 

[Mentallic]

And what about THEM trying to get to know you better? Why is it always you having to do the work? Why is it that you can't be the "harsh" one and judge them like they judge you? What gave them the courtroom and gavel?

No one has to like anyone here, but in order to make things work for his relationship with THEIR daughter, it is probably a good idea he tried to do something about it.