Named unit for momentum

[Vanadium 50]

Got an email today proposing naming the unit of momentum for Emmy Noether. It would be either the noether or the emmynoether: some people feel it is important to emphasize her gender.

My understanding is it would not be SI, but US-only. Rereading the enail, it might not even be MKSA; I suppose it could even be CGS,

 

[fresh_42]

My understanding is it would not be SI, but US-only.

Sounds like the invitation to yet another joke about American units.

​

So the car crashed with almost 42 ke or 42 kE? Poor Emmy will forever be associated with crashes of cars, trains, and airplanes. But a Newton is a Noether per second is funny in a way.

 

[Vanadium 50]

One might reflect on the irony that the people who proposed this likley consider themselves "anti-inperialist: bu are implicitly arging "you're all just going to have to do it our way.:

I'd argue that if you think this is a good idea, get it into SI.

 

[fresh_42]

One might reflect on the irony that the people who proposed this likley consider themselves "anti-inperialist: bu are implicitly arging "you're all just going to have to do it our way.:

I'd argue that if you think this is a good idea, get it into SI.

I suggest naming a unit for torque instead. This would at least resolve the absurdity of torque and work having the same unit. Why not introduce a Noether to be something meaningful?

 

[martinbn]

I personally think it is a good idea. Especially if emmynoether is not meant to emphasize her gender but to avoid a confusion with her father.

Why would it not be a SI unit? It could be defined as: 1Noether = 1kg1m/1s

offtopic: Sometimes I think that I am the only one who is not american and does not live in america but likes the imperial system more than the metric.

offtopic: All this reminds me of the anecdote. After the professor finishes the proof of Noether's theorem, a student says "I understand all this, but I have one question. How does this imply that there is no aether?"

 

[Vanadium 50]

Why would it not be a SI unit?

Because the plan, at least the one that crossed my desk, is not to go through that international body (ISO? BIPM?) but to just start doing it.

 

[Vanadium 50]

If the US can call it the em, unoether, why can't the UK call it the princessdi? Or maybe the queenvictoria, who was after all a patron of science. Canada can call it the timhorton.

This is why I think an end run around SI is a bad idea.

 

[Frabjous]

Got an email today proposng

The list of acceptable sources keeps expanding.

Ignoring the question of who, what is the utility of creating a unit of momentum? It seems more like stamp collecting.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I think the rationale is sociology, not physics.

 

[Baluncore]

Starting this April, it could be claimed that the physicist, Emmy Noether, is celebrated by the Emmy Awards.

Television, and the image orthicon tube, are not really in a position to defend themselves, indeed they might benefit from the association and the publicity.

 

[martinbn]

Starting this April, it could be claimed that the physicist, Emmy Noether, is celebrated by the Emmy Awards.

Definitely not! She was a mathematician not a physicist.

 

[fresh_42]

Definitely not! She was a mathematician not a physicist.

... and therefore, we have Noetherian rings!

 

[Baluncore]

Definitely not! She was a mathematician not a physicist.

How many non-physicists have given their names to physical units?
Was Newton a mathematician or a physicist?
Was Maxwell a mathematician or a physicist?

 

[martinbn]

How many non-physicists have given their names to physical units?
Was Newton a mathematician or a physicist?
Was Maxwell a mathematician or a physicist?

You said "the physicist Emmy Noether. I was correcting that.

 

[martinbn]

... and therefore, we have Noetherian rings!

And modules, and spaces.

 

[fresh_42]

How many non-physicists have given their names to physical units?

Gauß.
Pascal.
Does the Hamilton operator count?

Was Newton a mathematician or a physicist?

A sheep farmer (Lord of the Manor), but his son was an astrologist and alchemist.

Was Maxwell a mathematician or a physicist?

A physicist.

It should be noted that the distinction between physicists and mathematicians is a child of modern times, i.e., the twentieth century, and the consequence of a continued specialization in each. Scientists had been generalists up to then. They didn't care what they were called. Was Fermat a lawyer? Were Leibniz and Descartes philosophers? Some of them even studied religion, e.g., Newton.

 

[Baluncore]

You said "the physicist Emmy Noether. I was correcting that.

So why is she being recommended for a unit of momentum?

 

[Frabjous]

It should be noted that the distinction between physicists and mathematicians is a child of modern times, i.e., the twentieth century, and the consequence of a continued specialization in each. Scientists had been generalists up to then. They didn't care what they were called. Was Fermat a lawyer? Were Leibniz and Descartes philosophers? Some of them even studied religion.

Many would be quickly banned from PF for their personal theories, pseudoscience and philosophical/religious discussions.

 

[martinbn]

So why is she being recommended for a unit of momentum?

You don't get it. She is not a physicist. That was my only point. Do you disagree?

 

[fresh_42]

You don't get it. She is not a physicist. That was my only point. Do you disagree?

And if so, may we speak about Lie, Cartan, and Killing?

 

[Nugatory]

Many would be quickly banned from PF for their personal theories, pseudoscience and philosophical/religious discussions.

That's not an especially illuminating hypothetical, because if they had been born in this era they would have followed a very different path into the world of physics.

 

[fresh_42]

That's not an especially illuminating hypothetical, because if they had been born in this era they would have followed a very different path into the world of physics.

Yes, but this is not necessarily true for their philosophical and religious treatises.

In the 1690s, Newton wrote a number of religious tracts dealing with the literal and symbolic interpretation of the Bible.

(Wikipedia)

 

[Vanadium 50]

Well, when Newton comes here, we can ban him.

 

[fresh_42]

Well, when Newton comes here, we can ban him.

Time for a séance?

 

[Frabjous]

That's not an especially illuminating hypothetical, because if they had been born in this era they would have followed a very different path into the world of physics.

Given his interest in alchemy, I can see Newton being interested in low energy nuclear reactions.

 

[fresh_42]

Given his interest in alchemy, I can see Newton being interested in low energy nuclear reactions.

And they had only 15 elements at his time, P included (1669).

 

[robphy]

Got an email today proposing naming the unit of momentum for Emmy Noether. It would be either the noether or the emmynoether: some people feel it is important to emphasize her gender.

My understanding is it would not be SI, but US-only. Rereading the enail, it might not even be MKSA; I suppose it could even be CGS,

https://pubs.aip.org/aapt/ajp/artic...is-time-to-honor-Emmy-Noether-with-a-momentum
American Journal of Physics
Volume 92, Issue 9
September 2024

LETTERS TO THE EDITOR| September 01 2024

It is time to honor Emmy Noether with a momentum unit​

Geoff Nunes, Jr.

Am. J. Phys. 92, 647 (2024)
https://doi.org/10.1119/5.0229624

I have been teaching physics, on and off, for 30 years now, and every time I get to momentum and start writing “kg m/s” for the unit, my students ask if there is some official unit they can use instead. And every time, I have to inform them that, sadly, there is not.

The International System of Units contains seven base units and 22 derived units. Of these units, 17 are named in honor of people, every one of whom is a man. It seems to me that momentum offers the perfect opportunity to admit a woman to that club. For several years, I have been declaring that, in my class, one kg m/s is equal to one Noether, in honor of Emmy Noether, whose theorem shows, among other things, that space translation symmetry results in conservation of momentum.

Formal adoption of this new unit by the Bureau International des Poids et Mesures may take a while. I propose that we teachers start the process from the grassroots. Let us adopt the Noether in our own classrooms and abbreviate it Nr (which is shorter—what my students want—and which will honor Emmy Noether's contributions to physics—what is long overdue).

REFERENCES​

1. BIPM, The International System of Units, 9th ed. ( Bureau International des Poids et Mesures, Sèvres, France, 2019).
2. E. Noether, “ Invariante Variationsprobleme,” Nachr. Ges. Wiss. Göttingen, Math.-Phys. Kl. 1918, 235–257 (1918).

---

So, with the suggested symbol: $1 {\rm\ Nr} = 1 {\rm\ N\cdot s}$.

 

[fresh_42]

And here is the link to what caused the debate:
E. Noether, “ Invariante Variationsprobleme,” Nachr. Ges. Wiss. Göttingen, Math.-Phys. Kl. 1918, 235–257 (1918).

 

[robphy]

...
The International System of Units contains seven base units and 22 derived units. Of these units, 17 are named in honor of people, every one of whom is a man.

So, this isn't just another unit.

 

[fresh_42]

At least we have Mt and Cm.

 

[fresh_42]

Btw., I propose to call $\dfrac{s^2}{kg\cdot m}$ a Meitner:

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/collection-of-science-jokes-p2.847743/page-8#post-5717287

 

[Orthoceras]

In 1888, a committee of the British Association proposed "bole" as the name for the unit of momentum. (link)

 

[fresh_42]

In 1888, a committee of the British Association proposed "bole" as the name for the unit of momentum. (link)

Bole is (was?) already in use, so it's not really an alternative.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bole_(Einheit)

 

[Orthoceras]

That unit name is unknown in the English wikipedia. I am not sure I would trust the statement in the German wikipedia. It does not seem likely that the British Association in 1888 was unaware of a unit name conflict. In contrast, they said the uncouthness of some of these terms was put forward as a reason for their adoption, as their unfamiliarity would compel closer attention ands lead to their being easily remembered.
link

 

[fresh_42]

I am not sure I would trust the statement in the German wikipedia.

I cannot see why someone would invent this. Criticizing the source is cheap, but that doesn't make it wrong.

They say that Bole was used in Denmark https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bol where it was written Bol and in the neighboring German region for farmland, and in Scottland for volume: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firlot where they wrote it Boll. A bole measured grain in England: https://www.sizes.com/units/bole.htm

However, you can doubt every source on the internet I ever could mention.

But they noted their references

A Dictionary of Obsolete and Provincial English.
London: Henry G. Bohn, 1857.
Page 233.

and also that it was proposed for momentum:

Latimer Clark.
A Dictionary of Metric and Other Useful Measures.
London: E & F.N. Spon, 1891.