Navigating Business Worlds: Struggles of Scientists & Engineers

[Ivan Seeking]

I hate money!

Obviously I want to have a lot of it so I'm no better than anyone else, but I hate the games that go with making money. A salesman once told me that it is the pursuit of wealth, and not wealth itself, that addicts people. I would certainly argue that point. But maybe this is the dinstiction between people like me who make money because we need it, and those who truly enjoy the money game. I know people who thrive on the very climate - tension in a room, mental chess games designed to deceive - that makes me most miserable. They seem to flourish in a world of mind games and insincerity.

The other side is the perspective change that dollar signs induce. There is a truism in the business world: If you want to lose a friend, go into business together. Not absolute of course but generally true. I know it first hand. And now I see it with customers. There is a customer that I have bent over backwards to give a good deal on a large job. Jobs usually get very political [money], and often someone has their job on the line if things go badly. I learned long ago that I need to be sensitive to this, but also that no matter how good of a deal I make someone, and no matter how far above and beyond the call of duty I may go, the very next day they will ***** and moan if I come out an hour or two ahead for a change. They will stab you in the back and never give it a second thought. There is certainly no such thing as gratitude in the business world.

When I first went into business doing consulting/programming/engineering, a very successful salesman that I know lectured me about engineers and the business world. As a rule, scientists and engineers make really lousy business people. We are too focused on solving the problem and not making the money. He told me how he has watched guys like me come and go for decades, and most fail because they can't stop being engineers - the surgery was a success but the patient died sort of thing.

Somehow I manage to get through it all without losing my mind, but in this way I'm not really the sort of person who should be in business. I don't like the games and BS. It drives me nuts! And in many or most ways I hate the pursuit of wealth. But I love my work, and more importantly, I hate bosses even more than greed.

 

[brewnog]

The thing that gets me is that you can't make any real money in our profession doing the fundamental engineering tasks; concept, design, development, manufacturing, service etc. To get a higher salary you have to go into a management role of one form or another where you become disconnected from the technical work; as a result the real engineers who are the fundamental product makers are totally undervalued. Alternatively, have the balls and nous to go it alone and work for yourself, but this isn't without its risks.

The other thing which I get frustrated with is that nowadays, business is so fiercely cost-oriented, that you a vast amount of creativity is taken away from you as an engineer. As a result of all this I'm wondering about becoming a black belt...

 

[wolram]

I hate money!

Obviously I want to have a lot of it so I'm no better than anyone else, but I hate the games that go with making money. A salesman once told me that it is the pursuit of wealth, and not wealth itself, that addicts people. I would certainly argue that point. But maybe this is the dinstiction between people like me who make money because we need it, and those who truly enjoy the money game. I know people who thrive on the very climate - tension in a room, mental chess games designed to deceive - that makes me most miserable. They seem to flourish in a world of mind games and insincerity.

The other side is the perspective change that dollar signs induce. There is a truism in the business world: If you want to lose a friend, go into business together. Not absolute of course but generally true. I know it first hand. And now I see it with customers. There is a customer that I have bent over backwards to give a good deal on a large job. Jobs usually get very political [money], and often someone has their job on the line if things go badly. I learned long ago that I need to be sensitive to this, but also that no matter how good of a deal I make someone, and no matter how far above and beyond the call of duty I may go, the very next day they will ***** and moan if I come out an hour or two ahead for a change. They will stab you in the back and never give it a second thought. There is certainly no such thing as gratitude in the business world.

When I first went into business doing consulting/programming/engineering, a very successful salesman that I know lectured me about engineers and the business world. As a rule, scientists and engineers make really lousy business people. We are too focused on solving the problem and not making the money. He told me how he has watched guys like me come and go for decades, and most fail because they can't stop being engineers - the surgery was a success but the patient died sort of thing.

Somehow I manage to get through it all without losing my mind, but in this way I'm not really the sort of person who should be in business. I don't like the games and BS. It drives me nuts! And in many or most ways I hate the pursuit of wealth. But I love my work, and more importantly, I hate bosses even more than greed.

Way to go Ivan, the Bs do not understand us, and i do not even want to try to understand (them) snake/ish low life sons of-----------------

 

[kyleb]

There are many honest businessmen, but honesty rarely gets anyone very far in the business world.

 

[Astronuc]

Money, get away.
Get a good job with good pay and youre okay.
Money, its a gas.
Grab that cash with both hands and make a stash.
New car, caviar, four star daydream,
Think Ill buy me a football team.

Money, get back.
Im all right jack keep your hands off of my stack.
Money, its a hit.
Dont give me that do goody good bull****.
Im in the high-fidelity first class traveling set
And I think I need a lear jet.

Money, its a crime.
Share it fairly but don't take a slice of my pie.
Money, so they say
Is the root of all evil today.
But if you ask for a raise its no surprise that theyre
Giving none away.

Pink Floyd - Dark Side of the Moon (1973)

 

[Zantra]

The thing that gets me is that you can't make any real money in our profession doing the fundamental engineering tasks; concept, design, development, manufacturing, service etc. To get a higher salary you have to go into a management role of one form or another where you become disconnected from the technical work; as a result the real engineers who are the fundamental product makers are totally undervalued. Alternatively, have the balls and nous to go it alone and work for yourself, but this isn't without its risks.

The other thing which I get frustrated with is that nowadays, business is so fiercely cost-oriented, that you a vast amount of creativity is taken away from you as an engineer. As a result of all this I'm wondering about becoming a black belt...

In technical fields it's been my experience that most managers of technical people are clueless about the technical side either because they came from a non technical background or because they lost touch with the technical side.

I hate management myself, but there's the risks and lack of insurance and that type of thing. Plus you HAVE to be a good salesman to make it work. And not everyone can wear multiple hats like that.

Ivan, sounds like you have a case of the grass is greener, because I'd love to be in your shoes with no boss and no clock to punch

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Don't get me wrong: I consider myself to be very lucky. But it does come with a big price as well.

Anyway, I didn't mean this to be about me so much as people like us who venture out as I have. I find the business world to be much like an alien landscape governed by a physics not known to me.

 

[brewnog]

I'm trying to organise myself a placement in sales at a different facility; that way I get some customer interface experience, but will also have to deal with a product I don't really know. Will report back if I get anywhere with that one, could have some pretty valuable lessons in it for me.

 

[turbo]

Ivan is right - being out on your own can be empowering, but you've got to watch the money side of the business, because your customers will be. They don't know your specialty, which is why the hire you, but they do know their own business, and their own bottom line comes first. This complicates things. I worked as a technical/training consultant for years (mostly in boiler operation, steam systems, turbine-generator operation and power distribution) and no matter how nice you are, there is somebody in every mill that is going to try to yank your chain because they perceive that you are on their turf, and there is somebody at some level of management in almost every mill that is going to try to gain financial advantage at your expense, whether it be by demanding services not contracted for (project creep) or other means.

An exception: While reviewing computer logic diagrams for the computerization of a large power boiler at a mill in Alabama, I found over a dozen errors, some of which would have been extremely dangerous or fatal to operators if the boiler had been brought on-line with the controls configured that way. I explained the problems to the chief engineer, and we met with the mill manager that afternoon and went to the programming company's location in Mobile the next day for a priority meeting. As I brought up each problem, the project director would say "Oh, we already found that and fixed it.", "That was just an error in the print - the logic will be configured properly", and crap like that. Even though they had already "fixed" all these problems, his assistants were making notes like mad all through the meeting and they had to have photocopies made of all my revised logic diagrams and notes. Already fixed? Yeah, right. The mill's chief engineer just sat back grinning like a possum watching them squirm. That project, and the computerization of the second power boiler the next year were probably the only projects in large mills when I didn't have any bean-counters or mid-level-types with aspirations breathing down my neck. The mill manager made sure that I was given all the leeway and resources I needed to do the job right, and I was answerable to him and his chief engineer only. I could have probably signed on permanently, but two 4-week stints in central Alabama (mid-July to mid-August) convinced me that Maine is a nice place, winters included.

Another little problem is that the government is ill-equipped to deal with self-employed professionals, and they use the same big sticks that they use on large engineering firms, consulting groups, etc. One mill in south Georgia offered me a multi-year contract that was essentially part-time but payed so well that I could have lived comfortably off that one contract. The hitch is that every contractor had to provide proof of worker's comp insurance. I had to take out a worker's comp policy on myself in order to provide the proof, and as soon as I did, the state (reasonably) assumed that I had employees and the department of taxation kept threatening me because I was not paying unemployment insurance or withholding taxes from these "employees". I sent letters explaining the situation, but the threats continued unabated until the project was completed a couple of years later.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

...and no matter how nice you are, there is somebody in every mill that is going to try to yank your chain because they perceive that you are on their turf, and there is somebody at some level of management in almost every mill that is going to try to gain financial advantage at your expense, whether it be by demanding services not contracted for (project creep) or other means...

So true! And with the small companies it seems that the number 2 person is always the problem. They are usually over-worked, under-paid, and suffering from ego problems because they think they should be number 1. But I have had guys turn on me for reasons that I never did understand. I have no idea how I was a threat to them. I dropped one of my largest customers when I caught a guy sabotaging my work - can't afford the liablity with that sort of thing going on. And I thought we were pretty good friends... I still have no idea what happened.

But there have been a few exceptions, and I have definitely gotten breaks and come into good opportunities because of the nice people met along the way. I should never say never...but exeptions have been rare. Most places are fairly reasonable, but never let down your gaurd; that's for sure.

 

[Mk]

One of the top ten rules of the mafia: Never loan money to a friend or you'll end up havin' ter whack 'em.

 

[Pengwuino]

Makes you wonder what management feels about engineers... i can already see the roots of what i would bet they complain about.

 

[kant]

I hate money!

Obviously I want to have a lot of it so I'm no better than anyone else, but I hate the games that go with making money. A salesman once told me that it is the pursuit of wealth, and not wealth itself, that addicts people. I would certainly argue that point. But maybe this is the dinstiction between people like me who make money because we need it, and those who truly enjoy the money game. I know people who thrive on the very climate - tension in a room, mental chess games designed to deceive - that makes me most miserable. They seem to flourish in a world of mind games and insincerity.

The other side is the perspective change that dollar signs induce. There is a truism in the business world: If you want to lose a friend, go into business together. Not absolute of course but generally true. I know it first hand. And now I see it with customers. There is a customer that I have bent over backwards to give a good deal on a large job. Jobs usually get very political [money], and often someone has their job on the line if things go badly. I learned long ago that I need to be sensitive to this, but also that no matter how good of a deal I make someone, and no matter how far above and beyond the call of duty I may go, the very next day they will ***** and moan if I come out an hour or two ahead for a change. They will stab you in the back and never give it a second thought. There is certainly no such thing as gratitude in the business world.

When I first went into business doing consulting/programming/engineering, a very successful salesman that I know lectured me about engineers and the business world. As a rule, scientists and engineers make really lousy business people. We are too focused on solving the problem and not making the money. He told me how he has watched guys like me come and go for decades, and most fail because they can't stop being engineers - the surgery was a success but the patient died sort of thing.

Somehow I manage to get through it all without losing my mind, but in this way I'm not really the sort of person who should be in business. I don't like the games and BS. It drives me nuts! And in many or most ways I hate the pursuit of wealth. But I love my work, and more importantly, I hate bosses even more than greed.

the world is a jungle(I don t mean it as a matophor). Are you really tell me that you never manipulate people to advance your own interest? of course you do. It is an integral part of the social structure of our specie `s evolution.

 

[Integral]

Ivan,
There is a 2 word rebuttal to nearly every thing you said.

Hewlett Packard


2 College friends with Engineering degrees go into business together and make history.

I think much of what you say is reality, even the inheritors of the Hewlett Packard philosophy have lost sight of what made that company unique in its day.

 

[newp175]

This whole money race is depressing in my opinion. The only reason the middle class people search for it is to pay the rising taxes and debts for the cars/homes/oil and to buy new shining junk. I would feel free if I didnt have need of any of those.

 

[Pengwuino]

This whole money race is depressing in my opinion. The only reason the middle class people search for it is to pay the rising taxes and debts for the cars/homes/oil and to buy new shining junk. I would feel free if I didnt have need of any of those.

So why do you need them?

 

[newp175]

I dont. Think about it.

 

[Zantra]

money's like air.. It's only important if you don't have any. At least to some people.

I think the backstabbing and toe-stepping isn't limited to just one facet of business. People would usually sell their own mother to further their own careers no matter where they are in the food chain. It's a pretty universal trait. People who are otherwise upstanding individuals turn into satan's spawn when money becomes involved. It is the nature of things. People tend to make money their central focus because of what money brings them.

It's funny if you think about it: paper money doesn't actually have any worth or value except what society places on it. We could decide tomorrow that money is worthlesss and bottlecaps are the new method of exchage. Then you'd see people getting robbed and killed over bottlecaps.
We're all rats in the maze chasing the imaginary cheese- does it ultimately mean anything?

 

[newp175]

... People tend to make money their central focus because of what money brings them.

... and what it brings is more attachment to the 10^9 ways those above you have to rob you, abuse you and then demand your gratitude. Though I believe he is saying only a small part of the truth, some Chomskyists here may agree with this. It really is ''Render to Caesar what is Caesar's''
whether you like it or not.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Are you really tell me that you never manipulate people to advance your own interest? of course you do. It is an integral part of the social structure of our specie `s evolution.

No, I don't; at least not knowingly or intentionally.

Believe it or not, it is possible to get by without being a crook using your friends. Sure, I've done things I regret, but I never intentionally screw people.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I hate money!

Obviously I want to have a lot of it so I'm no better than anyone else, but I hate the games that go with making money. A salesman once told me that it is the pursuit of wealth, and not wealth itself, that addicts people. I would certainly argue that point. But maybe this is the dinstiction between people like me who make money because we need it, and those who truly enjoy the money game. I know people who thrive on the very climate - tension in a room, mental chess games designed to deceive - that makes me most miserable. They seem to flourish in a world of mind games and insincerity.

I believe you once said you were raised Catholic. I was too, and share your problem with playing the money game in most situations. Catholics are taught by people who've taken a vow of poverty that wealth and the persuit of wealth are distractions essentially destructive to your soul. Ever since my Catholic youth, being raised by nuns, I can't help but view people who pursue money at all costs as soul-less.

 

[kyleb]

Catholics are taught by people who've taken a vow of poverty that wealth and the persuit of wealth are distractions essentially destructive to your soul.

They just teach that to scare you into paying your tithe so they can cover even more of the Vatican in gold.
I'm sorry, I just couldn't resist that setup.

 

[kant]

No, I don't; at least not knowingly or intentionally.

Believe it or not, it is possible to get by without being a crook using your friends. Sure, I've done things I regret, but I never intentionally screw people.

You miss the point. The point is that human by nature are constantly trying to advance their own social standing by whatever mean possible. Under some research from some university i can t remember. Under a ten minute discussion between two university student, approximatly 30% of what each student say about themselves to one another are a lie.

 

[Mollet1955]

how u knowit a lie ?
theres no lie in society, everyone is trueful
what did u decide to do then, after relizing they were lying ? that's more important

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

If you have no money, you will start to miss meals. That's certainly something worth worrying about. So tell me. How much have you worried and how many meals have you missed for lack of money?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I believe you once said you were raised Catholic. I was too, and share your problem with playing the money game in most situations. Catholics are taught by people who've taken a vow of poverty that wealth and the persuit of wealth are distractions essentially destructive to your soul. Ever since my Catholic youth, being raised by nuns, I can't help but view people who pursue money at all costs as soul-less.

Wow! Although I have met people who strike me as being soul-less [tares], I never thought about it quite like that. And coupled with that I have parents who have a WWII/depression frame of reference.

But I think it goes deeper than Catholicism. Consider the myth of Washington and his apple tree, for example. And wasn't it Honest Abe who walked a mile to return a penny, or something like that...? Or maybe those were just stories for the poor people.

 

[Pengwuino]

Wow when was this thread getting new posts?

 

[Pengwuino]

I dont. Think about it.

You implied you did need them. Thinking done for the week.

No, I don't; at least not knowingly or intentionally.

You probably do. I think MOST people think they don't do it but in actuality do. The problem lies with the effect of manipulation and how we view it i think. I think many of us won't realize we are manipulating someone if we feel like we are doing something good for them. I think we also disguise manipulation under the ideas of "convincing someone" or "debating". If you aren't in it just because you get a rush out of yelling at someone or aren't feeding your own ego, what you're effectively doing is trying to manipulate someones views to better suit or match your own.

Maybe the term "manipulation" is never fully realized to mean what it actually does mean.

As for the whole money issue, i feel its something good to have but like all other things, it becomes a problem if you start actively sacrificing other good things for it. Thankfully most people have a sense of ethics and have a half way decent moral grounding which they don't turn to as a sacrificial lamb in order to earn more money.

 

[Wishbone]

The fact is whether you like it or not, some people make a ton of money, and have fun making it, spending it, using it, and not giving it away. Are they soulless? Of course not. I also do not think you should criticize them too much as you might be one of them if given the opportunity.

Also, its not good to call them soulless simply because they make more moeny than you. I know rich people who as much more noble, and moral than poor people. You can be both. A lot of hatred for rich people is born out of jealousy. Its kinda rediculous

 

[Ivan Seeking]

You probably do.

Look, in one case we're talking about a guy who electrified an operator platform with 110VAC in an effort to make me look bad. Luckily I caught him red-handed right in front of the project manager. [I'm pretty sure that he has ruined a few careers - people I know]. We're talking about people who will take everything you own if given a chance. They will threaten you with law suits, withhold payment until sued or threatened, or take your work and give it to your competitors. They will try to trick you into working for free, they will intentionally lie about the job and pretend to not know what they full well do know. They will even cut corners where doing so puts peoples lives at risk... just to name a few specific examples off the top of my head. We're not talking subtle here.

Whenever I answer the phone, I have to be careful about every word that I say. I learned long ago that there's no such thing as "friends" in business.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Wow! Although I have met people who strike me as being soul-less [tares], I never thought about it quite like that. And coupled with that I have parents who have a WWII/depression frame of reference.

But I think it goes deeper than Catholicism. Consider the myth of Washington and his apple tree, for example. And wasn't it Honest Abe who walked a mile to return a penny, or something like that...? Or maybe those were just stories for the poor people.

And Ben Franklin's "A penny saved is a penny earned." There was a definite Thrift is better than wealth meme, that was going around in our childhood that isn't circulating nearly as much today. The credit card has changed everyone's thinking.