Nostradamus & LHC: Debunking Myths & Contradictions

[chinatruth]

hello I am a guy from China, and I am interested in LHC.

At first I was convinced that the experiment in LHC would not produce any danger, but when I saw the passage below I was still terrified and afraid of it.

http://bigsciencenews.blogspot.com/2008/05/nostradamus-and-lhc.html

Can anyone point out contradictions in this passage, which could make me feel better!~

In this prediction he said that an earthquake would happened in May, You know, in Wenchuan, China, so I was terrified and nervous~

thanks!

 

[vanesch]

http://bigsciencenews.blogspot.com/2008/05/nostradamus-and-lhc.html

OMG

Those idiots from CERN must have overlooked Nostradamus - that makes their safety analysis totally incomplete

 

[Vanadium 50]

An Earthquake in May?

Since Nostradamus, there have been about 60,000 6.0+ earthquakes. Amazingly, a full 5000 of them occurred in May! Clearly the LHC is dangerous.

Sadly, this isn't the worst argument I've heard.

 

[Clairefucious]

Worried about the LHC? Check out the LHC rap:
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=j50ZssEojtM

Also, Nostradamus (and other 'prophets') were such prolific writers of vague predictions that you can find a prediction for almost any event. They also tend to concentrate on disasters quite a lot, because that's what gets attention.

 

[chinatruth]

An Earthquake in May?

Since Nostradamus, there have been about 60,000 6.0+ earthquakes. Amazingly, a full 5000 of them occurred in May! Clearly the LHC is dangerous.

Sadly, this isn't the worst argument I've heard.

Then what's the worst argument you've heard?...

 

[Almanzo]

Nostradamus predicted that the world would continue to exist until the end of the present millennium. Therefore, if one is to take his predictions seriously, one may assume we have still a thousand years to start a colony elsewhere.

Perhaps he should be taken seriously, as he seems to have correctly predicted some of the occurrences in France and Britain up to the start of the nineteenth century. (The Great Fireof London, the Reformation, the beheading of the British king, the French revolution, the interception of the fleeing French king at Varennes, the rise of Napoleon, and, possibly the use of hot air balloons.) He also predicted that Britain would rule the world for 300 years. But his predictions seem to peter out after 1850, or thereabouts. In spite of modern interpretations, there is nothing to suggest that Nostradamus predicted the industrial revolution, the World Wars, the holocaust, Communism, space travel, or nuclear bombs. Though there are a few quatrains which might be construed as predicting climate change. And most of his quatrains cannot definitely linked to anything.

There are nearly twenty quatrains by Nostradamus mentioning or alluding to Geneva, but most seem to have to do with the Reformation (John Calvin ruled Geneva for a while), or possibly with the League of Nations.

I wonder, however, whether it might be unhealthy to live in Geneva, if a continuous spray of submicroscopic black holes is being produced nearby. If so, Nostradamus' urging the inhabitants to flee the city would make sense. And it would suggest that Earth is not going to be destroyed anytime soon; why flee an unhealthy city if the world is going to end next week or even next year?

It occurs to me that a submicroscopic black hole passing through an atom would either swallow nothing at all, or the nucleus as a whole, or one of the electrons. It would thereby acquire a charge, which would quickly be neutralised by its attracting the rest of the mutilated atom. But its trail through the human body might be surrounded by several secondary ionisation events. Thousands of these trails might pass through an inhabitant of Geneva on any given day. And a very few of these black holes might return to Geneva after completing a few orbits through the Earth. These returning black holes would be much more dangerous than the original submicroscopic ones. Think of something bacterium sized but with the mass of a supertanker and the speed of an orbiting satelite passing through one's body. If it sheds only a tiny fraction of its momentum, it might give one's body the speed of a car. If it passes through one's head, it might break one's neck, or even decapitate one outright. That is quite apart from the damage done by its tidal forces (which might rupture blood vessels and shatter bones) and by swallowing matter outright (which would probably still be negligible).

So it makes sense for Nostradamus to advise people to hurriedly leave Geneva. If black holes are in fact being produced; I would advise to shun all regions along 46 North and South Latitude.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Chinatruth, I am a little puzzled as to what you're trying to accomplish here. You just quoted three paragraphs for a one line reply, and the one line has nothing to do with the point made in the quote. You've argued the LHC is dangerous based on Nostradamus, from Chinese earthquakes, from ill-informed comments your teacher made: in short, you're jumping around from position to position so fast I can't keep up with you.

While I hesitate to use the word "troll", it would be easier to have a discussion if you didn't flit around like this.

 

[chinatruth]

Chinatruth, I am a little puzzled as to what you're trying to accomplish here. You just quoted three paragraphs for a one line reply, and the one line has nothing to do with the point made in the quote. You've argued the LHC is dangerous based on Nostradamus, from Chinese earthquakes, from ill-informed comments your teacher made: in short, you're jumping around from position to position so fast I can't keep up with you.

While I hesitate to use the word "troll", it would be easier to have a discussion if you didn't flit around like this.

I was just obsessed by this experiment and I found here unconsciously a few days ago. I just want to learn more about this experiment from what you've said, which may also make me at ease.

 

[Almanzo]

I continue wondering why Nortradamus would urge the inhabitants of Geneva to flee from their city, if they cannot also flee from their planet. In an earlier post I suggested that the initial black holes, spraying from the installation, might already be harmful to human beings, in spite of their being probably very tiny. Their tiny initial size would, so to speak, be compensated for by their large number.

But the more I think about these initial holes, the less likely it seems that they could harm the human body. In later stages, when they would become harmful, they would either have escaped from Earth, or be orbiting deep inside it, perhaps occasionally emerging along the latitude of Geneva (and the same latitude in the Southern Hemisphere) but not especially in Geneva itself.

Only in the very last stage, where they are massive enough to disturb each others orbits, would they emerge in great numbers, evaporating, so to speak, from a cloud inside the Earth, which would be akin to a globular cluster of stars. Geneva would not be singled out for such emergences.

Perhaps the answer concerns Nostradamus, instead of the holes. Suppose that Nostradamus did see the future; how did he see it? Not by astronomical or astrological calculations. Yes, he could of course predict astronomical events, like the eclipse of 1999. And if astrology really "works", he could predict prosperity or adversity in the lives of people, provided he knew their birthplace and birthdate. One might even envision him plotting the fate of nations, such as the U.S.A., whose birth might be taken as the moment that the Declaration of Independence was signed. But though he might predict the murder of a president, say, astrology could not tell him the name of the president, or the name of his murderer, or any of the details found in his quatrains. Such details could only come from visions.

How do these visions come to him? Is he seeing the future through a disembodied eye, which he can send to where and when he wants? Or is he, rather, seeing the future through the eyes and minds of its inhabitants, learning something of what they have come to know?

If the latter, it probably matters how many of these future minds are in agreement. He might have seen the death of the current king, because it was nearby, and the Great Fire of Londen, because it was to be experienced by many Londoners. He might have seen the French Revolution, and the rise of Napoleon, because these are still being taught in the schools and talked about during many subsequent centuries.

But he might not have properly understood the modern world. And also, he may have been misled by movies and television. Perhaps that's why his predictions seem to peter out after the nineteenth century. He may have "seen", not what really was, but what existed in the popular mind. He may have "seen", for example, the resurrection of Dracula, because of the many Dracula movies seen by mothern minds.

Perhaps, there is, or will be, a popular belief that the LHC will make -- makes -- has made -- it very dangerous to live in Geneva. Nostradamus may have picked up this belief, and written his quatrain accordingly. In that case, Geneva might be in no more danger than the rest of the planet, or even in no danger at all.

 

[vanesch]

I continue wondering why Nortradamus would urge the inhabitants of Geneva to flee from their city, if they cannot also flee from their planet.

Right

Maybe because Nostradamus was just making stuff up ? Or because he would know that the prices of housings there would become prohibitively expensive ?

 

[peter0302]

In other news:

Maybe because Nostradamus was just making stuff up ? Or because he would know that the prices of housings there would become prohibitively expensive ?

Yeah but "contrary positive ray" in Geneva is pretty hard to come up with by mere chance. The 15th century French would have had no notion of "contrary positive" and certainly not when it came to "ray" (the only word they had for ray was light).

But at least it means that only Geneva will be destroyed.

 

[Almanzo]

The problem with "supernatural" claims, such as prognostication, is that there is so much fraud going around. And the problem with Nostradamus, specifically, is that his quatrains are so unclear. Thus he opens himself to the suspicion of fraud. A fraudster would be unclear on purpose, in order to avoid being exposed by a contradiction between his claims and the reality. A fraudulent medium would not say: "Your deceased aunt wants to say something." for fear of the reply "All my aunts are alive and well." or "I don't have any aunts." A fraudulent prophet, for a similar reason, would not say "President Reagan is going to die in office." but rather "President Reagan will be in great peril of his life." or "A president in the next decades is going to die in office."

But one can be unclear without being fraudulent. Why was Nostradamus so unclear? He himself gives the answer: Clear predictions, clearly fulfilled would gain him the attentions of the Inquisition, and open him to suspicions of witchcraft. Better to be suspected of fraud, than of witchcraft.

Yet I feel that he might have avoided being decoded by the Inquisition, and yet become clear by hindsight, while predicting events that would only come true when he would be safely in his grave. Consider the following quatrains, which he never wrote:

Feu se couchant dans l'abîme de matière
Sera déchaîné par sagesse D'UNE PIERRE
Dévastation sur une ville entière
Grandes royaumes tournés aux cimétières

Personne créature, personne si célère
Que se surpasse la vitesse de lumière
Ahi, Chrysanthème, Aigle, Ourse et Dragon
Seront des témoins du tonneau MEGATON.

Nobody in the sixteenth century could have made head or tail of it. Yet, nowadays, it would have been clear enough to raise him above all suspicion of fraud.

 

[james77]

The problem with "supernatural" claims, such as prognostication, is that there is so much fraud going around. And the problem with Nostradamus, specifically, is that his quatrains are so unclear. Thus he opens himself to the suspicion of fraud. A fraudster would be unclear on purpose, in order to avoid being exposed by a contradiction between his claims and the reality. A fraudulent medium would not say: "Your deceased aunt wants to say something." for fear of the reply "All my aunts are alive and well." or "I don't have any aunts." A fraudulent prophet, for a similar reason, would not say "President Reagan is going to die in office." but rather "President Reagan will be in great peril of his life." or "A president in the next decades is going to die in office."

There are really only 3 decisive factors that can come in play with regard to the accuracy of all such predictions (1) Time or how it's perceived (we for example don't perceive time in the same way the citizens of Plato's Athens did) (2) Place or Space (again this concept has changed drastically in the last 2000 years, ancient mathematicians certainly didn’t have any conception of infinite space like what we now know and work with) and (3) Language, How could we talk about realistically for example, the year 2525 and the possible events that may occur then, if we don't actually posses the language now to be able to talk about the types of changes, and the resultant experiences in how the world will be perceived by a given citizen, living in a certain place or space, in the year 2525; unless we could now somehow experience across the intervening periods of time and space that separate these two epochs, something of their world in advance? I suppose it's not dissimilar to Wittengenstein's talking Lion, who might indeed be able to talk to us, but we wouldn’t have a clue what he’s saying, because we, by virtue of being human beings are permanently excluded from the experience and the accompanying “Lion-Language” that makes up this particular world. Likewise any future human world and the predictions one could make about it will always suffer from a similar type of experience deficit, unless of course part of the human mind can indeed operate outside of normal empirical time restraints.

 

[vanesch]

I moved the posts related to Nostradamus' prediction concerning the LHC (well...) here...

(probably I missed some posts)

 

[vanesch]

Feu se couchant dans l'abîme de matière
Sera déchaîné par sagesse D'UNE PIERRE
Dévastation sur une ville entière
Grandes royaumes tournés aux cimétières

Personne créature, personne si célère
Que se surpasse la vitesse de lumière
Ahi, Chrysanthème, Aigle, Ourse et Dragon
Seront des témoins du tonneau MEGATON.

Nobody in the sixteenth century could have made head or tail of it. Yet, nowadays, it would have been clear enough to raise him above all suspicion of fraud.

There hasn't been any asteroid impact destroying any city as far as I know

 

[peter0302]

Doesn't anyone want to ponder a guess as to what he possibly could have meant by a "l'contre raypoz" destroying everything?

I mean, sure he might have been pulling it out of his butt, but even if it's a coincidence it's still pretty cool.

 

[Almanzo]

There hasn't been any asteroid impact destroying any city as far as I know

Multi-quote still doesn't work.

I did not think of asteroid impacts, but of nuclear bombs. Perhaps I should translate:

Fire which is sleeping in the abyss of matter,
Will be unchained by the ingenuity of ONE STONE
Devastation to an entire city
Great kingdoms turned into cemeteries.

No creature, nobody so swift
As to surpass the speed of light
Alas, Chrysanthemum, Eagle, Bear and Dragon
Will witness the vessel of MEGATON

You missed several quotes about Nostradamus, indeed an entire discussion of his possible prediction concerning the LHC. Please restore things as they were, or no newcomer will understand this any more.

 

[vanesch]

Multi-quote still doesn't work.

I did not think of asteroid impacts, but of nuclear bombs. Perhaps I should translate:

I know. I was applying "mauvaise foi", hence the

 

[vanesch]

You missed several quotes about Nostradamus, indeed an entire discussion of his possible prediction concerning the LHC. Please restore things as they were, or no newcomer will understand this any more.

Ok, I did more extensive thread surgery, I hope it is ok now. I didn't move orion1's posts, as I didn't want to disrupt the discussion in the other thread.

 

[Orion1]

Feu se couchant dans l'abîme de matière
Sera déchaîné par sagesse D'UNE PIERRE
Dévastation sur une ville entière
Grandes royaumes tournés aux cimétières

Personne créature, personne si célère
Que se surpasse la vitesse de lumière
Ahi, Chrysanthème, Aigle, Ourse et Dragon
Seront des témoins du tonneau MEGATON.

I translated this quatrain from Babelfish and Google, who wrote this quatrain?

Fire lying down in the matter damages will be unchained by wisdom and a stone Devastation on a whole city, Large kingdoms turned to the cemeteries nobody creature (nothing living survives), nobody is famous that the speed of light is exceeded with him, Chrysanthemum, Eagle, Bear and Dragon will be witnesses of barrel MEGATON.

This quatrain seem to match the description of nuclear weapons very well, 'Fire lying down in the matter' (nuclear fission), 'damages will be unchained by wisdom' (a fission chain reaction) and a stone (a critical mass), 'Devastation on a whole city, Large kingdoms turned to the cemeteries' (Nagasaki, Hiroshima), nobody is famous that the speed of light is exceeded with him (Einstein, General Relativity), 'barrel MEGATON', (a Megaton thermonuclear device barrel sized warhead). 'Chrysanthemum, Eagle, Bear and Dragon will be witnesses' (Japan, United States, Russia and China - national symbols)

 

[vanesch]

who wrote this quatrain?

Wasn't it our own PF-Nostradamus, Almanzo ?

 

[Math Jeans]

Nostradamus predicted that the world would continue to exist until the end of the present millennium. Therefore, if one is to take his predictions seriously, one may assume we have still a thousand years to start a colony elsewhere.

Actually, Notradamus predicted the end in September of 1999.

 

[tribdog]

When the LHC ends up not destroying the world does science get any brownie points? Does the fact that one more end of the world prophecy has been proven unfounded count for anything? Someone should start keeping score.

 

[Math Jeans]

When the LHC ends up not destroying the world does science get any brownie points? Does the fact that one more end of the world prophecy has been proven unfounded count for anything? Someone should start keeping score.

Let's start now: Humanity - 1 Fate - 0

 

[peter0302]

Consider the following quatrains, which he never wrote:

...

Nobody in the sixteenth century could have made head or tail of it. Yet, nowadays, it would have been clear enough to raise him above all suspicion of fraud.

Fine - but he DID write the quatrain about the anti-positive ray. No one could've made heads or tails of that in the 16th century either, especially since the contraction he used (raypoz) is not even a word in French, but does appear to be a contraction of two french words (positive and light).

Did he predict anything? I doubt it. But I really would love to know what he had in mind when writing that.

 

[LowlyPion]

Which again is the passage about the Higgs?

 

[Art]

Fine - but he DID write the quatrain about the anti-positive ray. No one could've made heads or tails of that in the 16th century either, especially since the contraction he used (raypoz) is not even a word in French, but does appear to be a contraction of two french words (positive and light).

Did he predict anything? I doubt it. But I really would love to know what he had in mind when writing that.

He probably never wrote it. It seems there are numerous versions of his works in circulation some redrawn from earlier iterations and some translated from one language to another and then another; so as with chinese whispers no two are the same and none of them probably bear any resemblance to the original.

Following on from that as the interpretations of these passages are often dependent on a turn of phrase or a slight nuance to get a match with real life events it makes the whole thing worthless IMO.

 

[Evo]

Now we're even discussing make believe Nostradamus quotes? Sorry, this thread violates our guidelines.