Observability and existence and uniqueness

[Aerostd]

Homework Statement

I have set up this problem for myself.

Let P be a system of the form

x' = Ax + Bu
y = Cx + Du

The definition of a "state" is:

"x(t) is a state for a system P if knowledge of x at some initial time t_{0} and the input u(t), t \geq t_{0} is sufficient to uniquely determine y(t) for t \geq t_{0}."

Let us consider only the free response (input 0). My understanding is that if x(t) is a state, then each selection of x_{0} will yield a unique y(t).

Now here is one definition for observability:

"A system P is observable if and only if the initial state x_{0} can be determined uniquely from its zero-input response over a finite time interval."

The thing that has been bothering me is this. If a system in unobservable, then that means that we can find two different initial conditions that give the same free response. Does that mean that if a system is unobservable, the existence and uniqueness conditions are violated? And if so, does that not mean that the x(t) we chose are not even states by definition?

Homework Equations

Here is an example. Suppose i have mass spring damper system.

x'' = -(c/m)x' - (k/m)x

We define our state variables as:

x_{1} = x
x_{2} = x'

Then,

x'_{1} = x_{2}
x'_{2} = x'_{1} = x'' = -(c/m)x_{2} - (k/m)x_{1}

Let my output be

y = x_{1}+x_{2};

Now, just for argument, suppose i define a third state variable

x_{3} = height of a random bouncing ball far away from the mass spring damper system.

My "state" is now x = [x_{1} x_{2} x_{3}]^{T}.

The Attempt at a Solution

I think it is safe to say that x_{3} will never appear in the output. The initial condition vector [1 1 10]^{T} and [1 1 20]^{T} will give the same free response. I know x_{3} is unobservable. I also think that since two different initial conditions give me the same output, therefore by definition, my choice of the state is not even a state since i do not get a unique output for two different initial conditions.
I think i am wrong. But i don't know where.

 

[CEL]

Homework Statement

I have set up this problem for myself.

Let P be a system of the form

x' = Ax + Bu
y = Cx + Du

The definition of a "state" is:

"x(t) is a state for a system P if knowledge of x at some initial time t_{0} and the input u(t), t \geq t_{0} is sufficient to uniquely determine y(t) for t \geq t_{0}."

Let us consider only the free response (input 0). My understanding is that if x(t) is a state, then each selection of x_{0} will yield a unique y(t).

Now here is one definition for observability:

"A system P is observable if and only if the initial state x_{0} can be determined uniquely from its zero-input response over a finite time interval."

The thing that has been bothering me is this. If a system in unobservable, then that means that we can find two different initial conditions that give the same free response. Does that mean that if a system is unobservable, the existence and uniqueness conditions are violated? And if so, does that not mean that the x(t) we chose are not even states by definition?

Homework Equations

Here is an example. Suppose i have mass spring damper system.

x'' = -(c/m)x' - (k/m)x

We define our state variables as:

x_{1} = x
x_{2} = x'

Then,

x'_{1} = x_{2}
x'_{2} = x'_{1} = x'' = -(c/m)x_{2} - (k/m)x_{1}

Let my output be

y = x_{1}+x_{2};

Now, just for argument, suppose i define a third state variable

x_{3} = height of a random bouncing ball far away from the mass spring damper system.

My "state" is now x = [x_{1} x_{2} x_{3}]^{T}.

The Attempt at a Solution

I think it is safe to say that x_{3} will never appear in the output. The initial condition vector [1 1 10]^{T} and [1 1 20]^{T} will give the same free response. I know x_{3} is unobservable. I also think that since two different initial conditions give me the same output, therefore by definition, my choice of the state is not even a state since i do not get a unique output for two different initial conditions.



I think i am wrong. But i don't know where.

For x_{3} to be a state variable of your system, you must write the dynamic equations describing its behavior.
In this case, knowing the initial state and the input (0 for the ball), you can determine the output y of the system. You can also know the state (value of the 3 variables) any time in the future.
What you can't do is to determine the initial state from observation of the output.

 

[Aerostd]

For x_{3} to be a state variable of your system, you must write the dynamic equations describing its behavior.
In this case, knowing the initial state and the input (0 for the ball), you can determine the output y of the system. You can also know the state (value of the 3 variables) any time in the future.
What you can't do is to determine the initial state from observation of the output.

My question is that if two different initial conditions give you the same free response, doesn't that violate the definition of a state?

 

[CEL]

My question is that if two different initial conditions give you the same free response, doesn't that violate the definition of a state?

No. Read again the definition.
Think of a parallel RC circuit and take the voltage and current on the capacitor as state variables.
If you charge the capacitor with any voltage, the state at t = infinity will be current and voltage both equal to zero.

 

[DeeNos]

I would like to clarify the concepts of observability and existence and uniqueness in the context of the given problem.

Firstly, observability refers to the ability to determine the initial state of a system from its output over a finite time interval. In other words, if we have complete knowledge of the system's output and input over a certain time period, we should be able to uniquely determine the initial state of the system. This is important in the analysis and control of systems, as it allows us to predict and control the behavior of the system.

On the other hand, existence and uniqueness refer to the conditions under which a solution to a system of equations or a problem exists and is unique. In the given problem, the existence and uniqueness condition is that for a state to be a state, it should be able to uniquely determine the output for a given input and initial time. This means that if we have two different states that give the same output for a given input and initial time, then neither of those states can be considered as a valid state.

In the example given, the third state variable x_{3} is not relevant to the output y and therefore does not affect the observability of the system. However, the two different initial conditions [1 1 10]^{T} and [1 1 20]^{T} do not violate the existence and uniqueness condition, as they still give the same output for a given input and initial time. Therefore, both of these can be considered as valid states.

In summary, observability and existence and uniqueness are two different concepts and should not be confused with each other. A system may be unobservable, but that does not necessarily mean that the existence and uniqueness conditions are violated. It is important to consider both of these conditions separately when analyzing a system.