One more reason why I hate American Cars

[Sorry!]

That is a good idea in practice. Hell I have a car that I can and do all of the mechanical work on it with a good wrench set, some screw drivers, a basic multi meter, a grease gun, a timing light, shop manual, and a torque wrench.

But for this to happen I need to give up things like ABS, traction control, air bag systems, power/performance with any form of good fuel economy, not messing with a choke, messing with the carb and timing it almost every 6 months, and less emissions.

Yes their might be a bunch of tecno crud my 07 Prius, but it is a hell of a lot better in many aspects then my 65 Cuda.

Beat me to it apparently.

You know, getitright, you can still buy one of those classics and work on it yourself... no one is going to stop you... they didn't just poof into the air when the next model came out... and at least while I was looking to buy my first car most of them were hell of a lot cheaper than newer models.

I do agree with the OP that it is UNETHICAL for GM to shut down private dealerships just to open their own. It would be like McDonalds shutting down a franchise, which has been pumping money to the company for years, for no good reason just to open another one in the same spot.

 

[Argentum Vulpes]

They shouldn't get paid that amount. There is a point where you get paid too much for your own good.

So what is that point where you start getting payed too much for your own good? Who decides at what point you start getting payed too much for your own good?

Also if someone want to be flown by a helicopter to work every day just think of pilot, ground crew, maintenance, and other people that have a job, because some greedy rich person wants to spend his money.

On a side note no poor person has ever given me a job that has payed the bills or put a roof over my head, I've only gotten jobs from poor people that have gotten me lunch, and maybe dinner for that day. This class war-fair BS is just that BS.

 

[getitright]

I have a classic as does Argentum so I don't complain without some action on my part.

 

[Sorry!]

So what is that point where you start getting payed too much for your own good? Who decides at what point you start getting payed too much for your own good?

Also if someone want to be flown by a helicopter to work every day just think of pilot, ground crew, maintenance, and other people that have a job, because some greedy rich person wants to spend his money.

On a side note no poor person has ever given me a job that has payed the bills or put a roof over my head, I've only gotten jobs from poor people that have gotten me lunch, and maybe dinner for that day. This class war-fair BS is just that BS.

This is why I support communism.

 

[Argentum Vulpes]

I bet you feel a lot better driving that Plymouth Barracuda than the Prius? Huh? Is ther a 340 in that?

It only takes a harness and computer to diagnose your car but it adds to the stuff you have to get to keep it up.

No I feel a hell of a lot better driving my Prius, it is safer, a hell of a lot more stable, and I don't have to mess with it constantly. Yes my Prius is easy to find problems on, the only problem that I have had is that there is been no problem with it. Oil changes and tire rotations, man that is really hard. It will go into the dealer here for a new timing belt because of the stuff that has to come off, but this car is easy to maintain.

Yes my Cuda has a Commando V8 under the hood, and some upgrades to it to eak more power out of it.

 

[Cyrus]

So what is that point where you start getting payed too much for your own good? Who decides at what point you start getting payed too much for your own good?

Also if someone want to be flown by a helicopter to work every day just think of pilot, ground crew, maintenance, and other people that have a job, because some greedy rich person wants to spend his money.

On a side note no poor person has ever given me a job that has payed the bills or put a roof over my head, I've only gotten jobs from poor people that have gotten me lunch, and maybe dinner for that day. This class war-fair BS is just that BS.

Yeah, all 5 of them are getting paid. Great stimulus to the economy - sorry that's a crock of BS.

Maybe you missed my point there buddy. A CEO shouldn't be paid enough to fly a helicopter to work every day when his company is in the toilet and screwing people who have dealerships in the process.

I'm not pushing any sort of communist viewpoints, and I'm certainly not going to sit here and argue with you about how much is too much to get paid - I really don't care and that's not the point of this thread.

 

[Argentum Vulpes]

This is why I support communism.

And it worked out so good for the USSR. Cuba, Laos, Vietnam and North Korea are doing great, and if China is communist then Lenin and Marx could be new power source. A country where 70% of national output is private, is not communist.

 

[Argentum Vulpes]

Yeah, all 5 of them are getting paid. Great stimulus to the economy - sorry that's a crock of BS.

Maybe you missed my point there buddy. A CEO shouldn't be paid enough to fly a helicopter to work every day when his company is in the toilet and screwing people who have dealerships in the process.

OK if a company is in the toilet then the CEO should be sent packing, or the company should go tits up. All of these economic bail outs were a crock of BS to start with.

I firmly believe you take a risk and get burned by that risk then you take responsibility for that burn. Conversely if you take a risk and get a huge payday because of that risk then you should not be screwed by high taxes or be demonized because of it. We live in a supposed capitalist society, could we please go back to living in that system.

 

[Cyrus]

OK if a company is in the toilet then the CEO should be sent packing, or the company should go tits up. All of these economic bail outs were a crock of BS to start with.

I firmly believe you take a risk and get burned by that risk then you take responsibility for that burn. Conversely if you take a risk and get a huge payday because of that risk then you should not be screwed by high taxes or be demonized because of it. We live in a supposed capitalist society, could we please go back to living in that system.

I have no problem with a person getting paid top dollar so long as their company is highly successful. I do have a problem when they are breaking the backs of small business owners (dealerships here) so they can swoop in later and reopen locations on their own, when those very dealerships are what prevented them from going belly up a lot sooner.

 

[russ_watters]

I do agree with the OP that it is UNETHICAL for GM to shut down private dealerships just to open their own. It would be like McDonalds shutting down a franchise, which has been pumping money to the company for years, for no good reason just to open another one in the same spot.

You and Cyrus are both only asserting this without substantiating it. Tell me why it is unethical! Just because it doesn't 'feel' right to you doesn't mean it is unethical.

I'll even give you a possibility to get you going: perhaps you think that it is unethical because it is unfair to break a contract. But if that is what you believe, you'll have to argue that in the context of a bankrupcy, where contracts can be legally voided if a judge says it is ok. That makes your McDonald's example invalid: McDonald's is not in bankrupcy, so it would be illegal to void their contracts with their franchises. In a bankrupcy, people get hurt and the judge decides how to deal with the situation in a way that hurts the least people the least amount. Ie, a judge decides what is fair.

 

[turbo]

Ethical or not, Chrysler has put many dealers in a bind. One dealership in particular stepped up to the plate and bought extra Jeeps when Chrysler begged them to take on more inventory. Then they got a letter saying that their franchise agreement is canceled and that Chrysler will not buy back any of the inventory. Chrysler also refuses to buy back any parts or specialty tools. The company offered to help the dealers sell inventory to dealerships that will remain open, but the "help" would require the dealers to take a loss of about $2500-3500 per unit. Dealers are trying to dump inventory, because after the termination of their franchise, they can no longer sell the Jeeps as "new".

http://www.mainebiz.biz/news44648.html

 

[rootX]

OK if a company is in the toilet then the CEO should be sent packing, or the company should go tits up. All of these economic bail outs were a crock of BS to start with.

Car companies did not create this recession.

Bail out is not to help those guys but just a way to increase Government spending so that you can make up for the reduced consumer spending IMO.

All these problem are short terms so if these companies acted irresponsible now they are seeing the consequences. But this is not the end of world or these things would continue forever.

I don't think there are any ethics in how these companies should run. But, I believe most unethical methods of making profits are non-sustainable (you can't cheat/do whatever you please in the long term).

 

[Sorry!]

And it worked out so good for the USSR. Cuba, Laos, Vietnam and North Korea are doing great, and if China is communist then Lenin and Marx could be new power source. A country where 70% of national output is private, is not communist.

Well when arguing against communism it would be helpful to not use fascist states as examples against it. Anyways this is off topic start a new thread if you want to continue discussing communism.


russ:
It would be agreed that somethings ethical would be the greatest amount of good. To me it would require the greatest amount of good to humanity as a whole. Stepping on little people to get there is ok as long as the total outcome is greater good for greater people. In this situation I don't see that ever happening and they MORE than stepped on the little guy. They got the dealerships to help them out and completely raped them. In my opinion this is self gratification for a dying company...

 

[FredGarvin]

The move is in an effort to save tens or possibly hundreds of thousands of jobs. Compare that to the much lower number of jobs being affected by the dealerships being closed.

The dealerships sure are being betrayed as the victims here. While I feel sorry for the people, car dealers are one step above strip mall developers in my book. The entire way the US dealerships have been run desperately needs to be changed. IMO this is a first step. Just like any other "revolution" it's not a nice step, but necessary.

 

[turbo]

Some dealers got hit hard, some not as bad. There is a very large Chrysler dealer in the area who lost his GMC truck franchise. There is a much larger GMC dealer within easy driving distance, so that was probably a no-brainer, and the dealer who lost his GMC line will regroup, since Chrysler is the bulk of his inventory and they kept him on. Chrysler targeted several smaller franchises here that ONLY sold Jeeps, so unless they can afford to buy another franchise or switch to used vehicles, they are out of luck.

The Hight family in Skowhegan appears not to be affected at all, except by the dissolution of Pontiac. If you want to buy a new car in this part of the county, you will buy from them, whether it's GM, Ford, Chrysler, Jeep... the single exception in Saab-the only dealership/franchise that they have not scooped up.

 

[Proton Soup]

The woman Senator was from Maine. She was said something like 80%(?) of cars in Maine are from GM, so why is GM closing down all the dealers there.

It's because eventually GM wants to replace the private dealerships with dealerships owned by GM itself, and not by a small business owner.

funny, I've never thought of car dealerships as small business. they seem to be big businesses that rake in a lot of dough.

i seriously doubt many of the dealership owners will be hurt by this. if they're not already independently wealthy with enough to retire on, shame on them. a bunch of salesmen may be in dire straits, though, but the owners? around here, it's been common for a while to see dealerships that carry several brands. they could always just rebrand and sell Kia Souls or something else if they really want to be in business so badly.

 

[Kenneth Mann]

The discussion I see here reflects much of the attitudes held, by many people in America, concerning US automakers. There was a great article in the Washington Post a couple of years ago that asserts that, no matter how they may try, American automakers do not get an even break from the American people. I also recall a similar thread in this forum a couple of years ago that expressed considerable disdain toward the autos made in America. Just to look at some of Cyrus' assertions i shall try to make my point:

Not only are they ugly and break down, they screwed their own dealerships left and right!

1. Looks are subjective. Personally, I don't care for the styling for most GM products (I think Cadillac styles are OK), but I find Chrysler products have very attractive styles, though I wouldn't pick their products - - - purely personal.
2. Do they really break down more? JD Power surveys don't reflect that. The last one had (1) Buick, (2) Jaguar, (3) Lexus, (4) Toyota, (5) Mercury (6) Acura, etc. The beloved Honda was rated number ten, and BMW and Mercedes fell at numbers 18 and 19 respectively. To be sure, Consumer Reports finds totally different results, but the rap on them is that their rating is done by amateurs (their subscribers). The magazine allows them to decide what is major and minor, and rates car reliability accordingly. Note that the one major cost item faced by most owners under 100,000 miles is replacement of the timing belt. The catch here is the practice by Honda of calling this a "tuneup item", thus this $850.00 tuneup item escapes scrutiny, and those amateur reviewers always find Honda the most reliable. In essence US cars for the last twenty years have been as reliable as Asian ones, and more reliable than most European ones. Does anyone notice that in Honda ads they never claim to be the most reliable; they just leave it to us to jump to that conclusion.
3. How many dealers will there be if the manuffacturers go under? The paring down of dealers simply reflects the fact that the manufacturers will be producing fewer cars.

Why anyone would every buy an American car again boggles my mind.

This is simply one person's bias against US cars.

The shut down dealerships and ruined those buissness owners lives without a care. Just for that, I'll never, ever buy a GM car as long as I live.

It's more an act of desperation than lack of care.

I was listening to WTOP radio and the interviewed people saying "American car companies need to stop making ugly Junk" and ..."American car companies need to wake up and make reliable cars like Honda or Toyota".

Again, this simply reflects attitudes toward the American car companies.

Why are we bailing these car companies out? Just let them die!

And when we do, all the hundreds of thousands of parts makers, service companies, auto workers and all those in the towns who run stores, restaurants, real estate, local banks, local government services, etc., etc. will also go under. And if you believe that a nation that is already running on debt rather that its manufacture of products, can shift prosperously to even more debt, maybe you should think longer.

The question, then, is "Why do Americans show such disdain for its own auto makers?" To me, the answer lies in what I call the "forty years of the great screw job." Between 1935 and 1975, the US auto companies deliberately made cars of shoddy quality. It was not that they couldn't build reliable products, they chose not to do so. (They would deny it.) Rumor has it that during the depression people stopped buying cars (duh). The auto company leaders supposedly swore that they would never allow this to happen again, so as it goes, those arrogant ba----ds thereafter made the cars to break-down and thus force the people back into the showrooms. (They were the only sources available to the buyers then.) As the story goes, this practice continued until the mid-seventies, when they were ambushed by the Japanese, who decided (correctly) that their chances lay in making cars more reliable. Once the shock wore off, the US companies realized that they had no choice but to improve quality, which, contrary to perception, they knew exactly how to do (it's not rocket science). By the mid-eighties, they had caught up, but the people ignored that as the have continued to do. The US car-makers forgot the "Johnson and Johnson principle", which basically states that, "if a company does something wrong, or otherwise has a problem - - - it must come clean about it." Those companies are required to confess publicly what they did, apologize for it, and make pact to never let it happen again. The US auto-makers have never done this, and thus have never been let off the hook. To this respect, these CEOs are either too arrogant, too stupid, or they've been listening to their lawyers for too long,rather than their PR people. Until they do apologize, don'e expect their fortunes to improve greatly. This is unfortunate. (Microsoft should think about this also. If and when the people get the chance, they'll dump on them in the same way.)

 

[Cyrus]

nd when we do, all the hundreds of thousands of parts makers, service companies, auto workers and all those in the towns who run stores, restaurants, real estate, local banks, local government services, etc., etc. will also go under. And if you believe that a nation that is already running on debt rather that its manufacture of products, can shift prosperously to even more debt, maybe you should think longer.

I don't agree that all the OEM manufacturers will go under just because the big 3 go away. Those parts still need to be made for the cars that are out on the road today. The problem is that these companies are *too* big to begin with. They basically have a hold on our economy. Since these companies are being bailed out (its not a matter of 'if' anymore), they need (in my mind) to be broken apart into small companies so that if they fail, we don't have to bail them out and we can just kick them to the curb.

The Cadillac STS is a nice American car, and probably the only one I'd consider buying. The rest of them are so damn ugly I wouldn't waste my money. The same goes for Nissan. I find 99.9% of their cars as ugly.

 

[Argentum Vulpes]

Car companies did not create this recession.

Bail out is not to help those guys but just a way to increase Government spending so that you can make up for the reduced consumer spending IMO.

All these problem are short terms so if these companies acted irresponsible now they are seeing the consequences. But this is not the end of world or these things would continue forever.

I don't think there are any ethics in how these companies should run. But, I believe most unethical methods of making profits are non-sustainable (you can't cheat/do whatever you please in the long term).

No the car companies shot them selfs in the foot when they did not respond to the changing market. Yes a land yacht was ok when gas was under a buck, when the energy crisis hit the big three sat on there duffs and continued business as usual and lost a market share to the Japanese and European manufactures. Also the big three have done dumb things like bad management, bad engineering, and ugly cars.

GMC with the Delta 88 diesel, take a gasoline 350, upgrade some parts, and run it as a diesel. No wonder the engine broke quickly. The designs of the Aztec, and the PT Cruiser.

Ford had the Pinto, yes we have herd all of the jokes. The new design of the T bird was ridiculous.

Chrysler has been in this position before. This is the second round of taking government money to save there rear ends. In 1979/80 they got 1.5 billion from the taxpayers. Yes they paid it back but looks like lesson not learned. As for designs the Prowler had some things right but had too much plastic on it for what it was.

Well when arguing against communism it would be helpful to not use fascist states as examples against it. Anyways this is off topic start a new thread if you want to continue discussing communism...

I just have such a big problem with this statement I need to address it, then I'll drop it. If I could find a communist state out there currently that wasn't fascist I'd of mentioned it. Other then the USSR every state that I mentioned are the only communist sates left, the rest of them (like the former USSR) have gone to some other form of government.

 

[Kenneth Mann]

I don't agree that all the OEM manufacturers will go under just because the big 3 go away. Those parts still need to be made for the cars that are out on the road today. The problem is that these companies are *too* big to begin with. They basically have a hold on our economy. Since these companies are being bailed out (its not a matter of 'if' anymore), they need (in my mind) to be broken apart into small companies so that if they fail, we don't have to bail them out and we can just kick them to the curb.

If you think that the parts companies will be able or willing to supply more than a small few of the parts of existing cars, I will submit that this is an illusion. This has been a problem for as long as cars have been made. The government had make laws (years ago) which require that manufacturers furnish replacement parts for cars for several years after purchase. If the manufacturers vanish and the government doesn't take over the task of providing for the replacement parts, most won't be provided. You can figure that what would be provided would be only those that the aftermarket provides now - - - the more specialized items would simply be too expensive to fabricate and stock - - - that is known from experience.

I agree that small companies would be preferable in case they go under - - - but their products would be far more expensive for several reasons - - - it simply costs a lot to build cars this way. (If you remember the DeLorean or the Bricklin you would be able to see this.) Also, US companies aren't the only ones being propped up by their governments during this downturn. (Even Toyota has required help.) What we would have is not one or two big failures, but a lot of small ones. If you really wanted to place blame for the present collapse you would put it on the sub-prime real estate market that collapsed banks and made auto loans so difficult.

The Cadillac STS is a nice American car, and probably the only one I'd consider buying. The rest of them are so damn ugly I wouldn't waste my money. The same goes for Nissan. I find 99.9% of their cars as ugly.

Actually, I find Nissan cars better looking than either Toyota or Honda, it's simply a matter of taste. My main objection to Nissan has been their unrecessed valve seats.