- #106
CelHolo
- 41
- 46
I think they mean what is the point of seeking an EPR complete theory?Demystifier said:It's like usefulness of the impossibility of perpetuum mobile. We don't longer waste time on thinking about the impossible.
I think they mean what is the point of seeking an EPR complete theory?Demystifier said:It's like usefulness of the impossibility of perpetuum mobile. We don't longer waste time on thinking about the impossible.
You mean it was useful for Bell to show that we cannot do what Einstein was hoping, so let's stop looking for hidden variable theories. But I question the usefulness of the definition at the time of EPR to show that QM needs modifications.Demystifier said:It's like usefulness of the impossibility of perpetuum mobile. We don't longer waste time on thinking about the impossible.
What's your guess, what Einstein would say? I'm pretty much convinced that Einstein would seek an ontological interpretation. Perhaps he would be interested in my version of Bohmian mechanics without a preferred frame.martinbn said:I think that none of them will say "Oh, nature is non-local, relativity is wrong, we must adopt a preferred frame theory."
Einstein was aware of Bohmian mechanics and didn't see the point. If I remember correctly his opinion is that BM is a cheap trick.Demystifier said:What's your guess, what Einstein would say? I'm pretty much convinced that Einstein would seek an ontological interpretation. Perhaps he would be interested in my version of Bohmian mechanics without a preferred frame.
So what kind of theory would Einstein seek? Wild guess is OK.martinbn said:Einstein was aware of Bohmian mechanics and didn't see the point. If I remember correctly his opinion is that BM is a cheap trick.
I don't know. He might continue his unified field theory research, he might accept that nature is quantum mechanical and not what he expected it to be.Demystifier said:So what kind of theory would Einstein seek? Wild guess is OK.
First of all not every question is worth posing and trying to answer. Second having questions is not a bad thing. It just means that there will definitely be more progress in the future. What I find bad practice is: if you cannot answer a question to make up an answer and pretend you've solve the problem. It is better to admit that the problem is hard and open at the moment. Look at mathematics. Some problems took centuries to solve.Demystifier said:So you are saying that the state always exists, while values of the observables exist only when they are measured, is that right? But it creates a lot of additional questions:
1. Why do values not exist before measurement?
2. How the values know that there is a measurement out there?
3. What's the precise definition of measurement?
4. Can measurement be derived from something more fundamental, or is measurement a primitive concept?
5. Does a value (randomly created in a measurement) have influence on the state?
6. If the answer to 5. is "yes", does this influence violate unitarity, linearity, locality and/or the Schrodinger equation?
EPR is not a logical conclusion but an assumption on the behavior of Nature.Demystifier said:That's an utter nonsense. To agree with EPR means to agree that their assumptions logically imply their conclusions. No experiment can refute a validity of a logical argument. A logical argument can only be refuted by another logical argument. The logical assumptions of EPR are QM and locality, which you accept. Their logical conclusion is incompleteness, which is not refuted by experimental violation of Bell's inequalities.
I don't know, whether EPR would be convinced or not, but I think it's rather on the side of the proponents of standard quantum theory saying "I told you so" ;-)).PeroK said:So, hypothetically, we get E, P & R back; show them Bell's inequality; show them a modern experimental set-up of Bell's inequality (I think they'd be very excited at this point); run the experiment; and:
@vanhees thinks they'd go away disappointed.
You think they'd say "I told you so"?
martinbn said:Second having questions is not a bad thing. It just means that there will definitely be more progress in the future. What I find bad practice is: if you cannot answer a question to make up an answer and pretend you've solve the problem. It is better to admit that the problem is hard and open at the moment.
So we agree that QM in its standard form is incomplete, in the sense that there are some meaningful questions that it doesn't answer.martinbn said:4. Sure, but then there will be other primitive concepts.
And, perhaps, the acid text would be gravity. If BM solves anything by re-establishing definite particle trajectories, then a fundamental theory of gravity ought to be a good candidate. If QM is incomplete in any useful, meaningful sense then that may be a stumbling block to QG - but not to BMG.Demystifier said:But then I need to tell you just one thing. When I talk about Bohmian mechanics, I don't "make up an answer and pretend I've solved the problem". Instead, I make an educated guess of a simplified model that might be on the right track and, after further development, perhaps one day might solve the problem.
Then why do you write so much on this forum and so little on the BSM forum?PeroK said:In any case, that's the sort of debate that I (as someone who cares little for philosophy) would be interesrted it. All this about ontology is pointless, compared to finding a fundamental theory of gravity.
See #113. Of course, they are not meaningful to you, but apparently some of them are meaningful to martinbn. Meaning is in the eye of the beholder.vanhees71 said:Again I've to ask, which are the meaningful questions QM can't answer?
I get dragged into these threads against my better judgement.Demystifier said:Then why do you write so much on this forum and so little on the BSM forum?
And all this about fundamental theory of gravity is pointless, compared to fighting the global pandemic crisis. And in the long run all this about global pandemic crisis is pointless, compared to fighting the global warming crisis. So what?PeroK said:All this about ontology is pointless, compared to finding a fundamental theory of gravity.
I don't know much philosophy or Latin, but I recognise a non sequitur when I see one!Demystifier said:And all this about fundamental theory of gravity is pointless, compared to fighting the global pandemic crisis. And in the long run all this about global pandemic crisis is pointless, compared to fighting the global warming crisis. So what?
To my mind, orthodox quantum theory was and is mainly criticized because it questioned and still questions some personal ideological beliefs which some people cling to with ferocity. Therefore, I think that Einstein would seek a theory that would support the fundamental assumption of the materialistic ideology. As Heisenberg puts it in his book "Physics and Philosophy" (chapter: Criticism and Counterproposals to the Copenhagen Interpretation of Quantum Theory):Demystifier said:So what kind of theory would Einstein seek? Wild guess is OK.
I agree. This is the only way science can proceed. As Oliver Passon puts it in “What you always wanted to know about Bohmian mechanics but were afraid to ask”:Demystifier said:... When I talk about Bohmian mechanics, I don't "make up an answer and pretend I've solved the problem". Instead, I make an educated guess of a simplified model that might be on the right track and, after further development, perhaps one day might solve the problem.
As far as I can tell all progress has been away from classical-like theories like BM. QFT made more concepts susceptible to complementarity/contextuality such as particle number and even the notion of particle, formulating it correctly required eliminating more non-operational concepts such as correctly considering what operators correspond to observables, precise analysis of detection events to remove infrared divergence.PeroK said:If BM solves anything by re-establishing definite particle trajectories, then a fundamental theory of gravity ought to be a good candidate. If QM is incomplete in any useful, meaningful sense then that may be a stumbling block to QG
Well, no, because we don't agree on what the meaningful questions are. You can always ask 'why' questions without an end. For me a theory is complete if it can answer any question that can in principle be realized as an experiment. If you shoot particles through a double slit, what do you see? How much energy...? In that sense QM is complete (in its domain of applicability, it obviously need extending when it comes to say gravity).Demystifier said:So we agree that QM in its standard form is incomplete, in the sense that there are some meaningful questions that it doesn't answer.
But you don't do that! Every time you run into a problem with well tested theories(say relativity) you use wishful thinking. Your answer is of the form "May be there is a way for relativity to be emergent at these scales but deep down it is just nonrelativistic space an time". To be clear by you I mean the plural, the whole BM community.Demystifier said:But then I need to tell you just one thing. When I talk about Bohmian mechanics, I don't "make up an answer and pretend I've solved the problem". Instead, I make an educated guess of a simplified model that might be on the right track and, after further development, perhaps one day might solve the problem. Admitting that the problem is open (which I admit) is not the same thing as not trying to solve it (which I try).
I say educated guess, you say wishful thinking. What exactly is the difference?martinbn said:But you don't do that! Every time you run into a problem with well tested theories(say relativity) you use wishful thinking. Your answer is of the form "May be there is a way for relativity to be emergent at these scales but deep down it is just nonrelativistic space an time".
Do you then think that your engagement on the quantum foundations forum is a waste of time? Or if not, what's your motivation for that?martinbn said:In that sense QM is complete (in its domain of applicability, it obviously need extending when it comes to say gravity).
I'll throw in my understanding of this:vanhees71 said:What ontology does Qbism have? They claim there's meaning in a probability for a single event. I never could get what that meaning should be.
They use a Bayesian concept of probability. It's an agent's degree of belief that event X will happen. Single events (like the outcome of a presidential election) can be ascribed a probability in this way, I see no problem with that.vanhees71 said:What ontology does Qbism have? They claim there's meaning in a probability for a single event. I never could get what that meaning should be.
I think the term "ontic" is not used here in the sense that the theory has some ontology. "Ontic" interpretations are those where the quantum state itself is part of the ontology. Other interpretations are called "epistemic", and in those the quantum state is a derived concept (a calculation tool). Many worlds, Bohm or GRW are "ontic" whyle 't Hooft's cellular automaton interpretation or consistent histories interpretation are epistemic. In Bohm's theory, the wavefunction is seen as a sort of field. For 't Hooft is just a statistical representation of the true state of system which is the CA state. But all above theories/interpretations have an ontology.vanhees71 said:I always thought an ontic interpretation assumes more than the existence of observations, i.e., there should be more meaning in a quantum state than a way to calculate probabilities, but precisely this is at odds with the way how the formalism is successfully related to nature as observed in real-world labs.
I don't think that an "observable" (the outcome of an observation) in classical physics has to be the actual property that is part of the classical state. Even in classical physics the observation requires an interaction, so any measurement disturbs the system (Newton's third law).martinbn said:It does say. It is called the state of the system. In classical physics the state consists of values of observables. In QM it does not.
It's not pointless. In order to combine QM with GR you need the fundamental elements of both theories (their ontologies) to match. But first you need to decide what those fundamental elements are.PeroK said:All this about ontology is pointless, compared to finding a fundamental theory of gravity.
I think you need to add the logical implications of the experiments. The EPR argument proves that you need additional variables to make the theory local. And if it's non-local you still need some additional structure (like defining an absolute frame).martinbn said:For me a theory is complete if it can answer any question that can in principle be realized as an experiment.
I thought my example with relativity was making my point.Demystifier said:I say educated guess, you say wishful thinking. What exactly is the difference?
The motivation is the same as when I read theards (in other forums) about perpetual motion, logical errors in relativity and so on. It is clear that it is nonsense, but figuring out why or reading someone's response to such nonsense usually leads to a better understanding for me.Demystifier said:Do you then think that your engagement on the quantum foundations forum is a waste of time? Or if not, what's your motivation for that?
Physics is about observations in Nature and particularly quantative measurements in the lab. Any probabilitistic theory (including classical statistics) thus must be epistemic, because then all there is is the statistical meaning of probabilities.AndreiB said:They use a Bayesian concept of probability. It's an agent's degree of belief that event X will happen. Single events (like the outcome of a presidential election) can be ascribed a probability in this way, I see no problem with that.I think the term "ontic" is not used here in the sense that the theory has some ontology. "Ontic" interpretations are those where the quantum state itself is part of the ontology. Other interpretations are called "epistemic", and in those the quantum state is a derived concept (a calculation tool). Many worlds, Bohm or GRW are "ontic" whyle 't Hooft's cellular automaton interpretation or consistent histories interpretation are epistemic. In Bohm's theory, the wavefunction is seen as a sort of field. For 't Hooft is just a statistical representation of the true state of system which is the CA state. But all above theories/interpretations have an ontology.
I don't find QBism convincing either. I only wanted to point out that even such a non-realist interpretation needs an ontology. Here is a paper dealing with the probabilities in QBism:vanhees71 said:Of course you can use a Bayesian interpretation of probabilities to use probability theory as a way to make decisions, e.g., whether after some probability analysis you decide to gamble at the casino or not, but this has nothing to do with physics.
Thank you for finally explaining it to me, I will have it in mind the next time you ask me something.martinbn said:It is clear that it is nonsense, but figuring out why or reading someone's response to such nonsense usually leads to a better understanding for me.
Let me ask you the same. Do you then think that your engagement on the quantum foundations forum is a waste of time? Or if not, what's your motivation for that?Demystifier said:Thank you for finally explaining it to me, I will have it in mind the next time you ask me something.