Organized disorderly conduct at town hall meetings

[Count Iblis]

http://www.thecherrycreeknews.com/content/view/4996/2/

With federal lawmakers returning home this week to begin their month- long recess, the far right is welcoming them with large, angry throngs at "town halls gone wild." "Screaming constituents, protesters dragged out by the cops[and] congressmen fearful for their safety" have marked the ugly scenes that have become the rule in recent days, as normally respectful meetings between representatives and their constituents have been inundated with right-wing protesters focused on killing health care reform.

Should the organizers of these acts of "disorderly conduct" be arrested and prosecuted?

 

[DavidSnider]

Should the organizers if these acts of "disorderly conduct" be arrested and prosecuted?

If they encourage people to incite violence, yes. Just being obnoxious, no.

 

[fleem]

http://www.thecherrycreeknews.com/content/view/4996/2/




Should the organizers of these acts of "disorderly conduct" be arrested and prosecuted?

Who would you like to decide whether the conduct is disorderly? The current party in power?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Who would you like to decide whether the conduct is disorderly? The current party in power?

Because just like during the election, they - the Republicans brought into disrupt the discussions - are making false accusations. They are also preventing people who actually wish to learn and talk about the issue of health care from doing so. Have you seen the chaos they have been inciting? That isn't democracy; it is an attempt at mob rule.


They are reciting the insurance company line.
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=328246

 

[edward]

It is all just the same old fear factor right wing politics. And it is organized by special interests.

The lobbyist-run groups Americans for Prosperity and FreedomWorks, which orchestrated the anti-Obama tea parties earlier this year, are now pursuing an aggressive strategy to create an image of mass public opposition to health care and clean energy reform. A leaked memo from Bob MacGuffie, a volunteer with the FreedomWorks website Tea Party Patriots, details how members should be infiltrating town halls and harassing Democratic members of Congress:

– Artificially Inflate Your Numbers: “Spread out in the hall and try to be in the front half. The objective is to put the Rep on the defensive with your questions and follow-up. The Rep should be made to feel that a majority, and if not, a significant portion of at least the audience, opposes the socialist agenda of Washington.”

– Be Disruptive Early And Often: “You need to rock-the-boat early in the Rep’s presentation, Watch for an opportunity to yell out and challenge the Rep’s statements early.”

– Try To “Rattle Him,” Not Have An Intelligent Debate: “The goal is to rattle him, get him off his prepared script and agenda. If he says something outrageous, stand up and shout out and sit right back down. Look for these opportunities before he even takes questions.”

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/07/31/recess-harassment-memo/

 

[Count Iblis]

Who would you like to decide whether the conduct is disorderly? The current party in power?

Why not let experienced police officers like Crowley keep an eye on the town hall meetings.

 

[russ_watters]

Heh, this is a funny thread - democrats complaining about republican protests!? We're definitely in bizarro world now!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Heh, this is a funny thread - democrats complaining about republican protests!? We're definitely in bizarro world now!

They aren't protesting, they are disrupting town hall meetings. Do you know the difference?

They are denying other Americans the right to free speech. When you get the occasional liberal nut trying to disrupt Republican events, they are arrested or escorted out. But in this case we have mobs, not just a few individuals.

Here in Oregon, one woman was forced to leave a Republican rally just for wearing an Obama t-shirt.

 

[fleem]

Who would you like to decide whether the conduct is disorderly? The current party in power?

Because just like during the election, they - the Republicans brought into disrupt the discussions - are making false accusations. They are also preventing people who actually wish to learn and talk about the issue of health care from doing so. Have you seen the chaos they have been inciting? That isn't democracy; it is an attempt at mob rule.


They are reciting the insurance company line.
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=328246

Why did you bother quoting my question if you weren't going to answer it? Your response indicates you read something that wasn't there. I guess I need to add a sig that says "I'm mostly libertarian, and have little respect for either party". That way if I say something like "Its going to rain tomorrow", people won't immediately presume I'm a democrat, and if I say, "I had eggs for breakfast" they won't immediately presume I'm a republican.

 

[mheslep]

If anyone sees anyone doing anything 'fishy' at these town halls you have a duty to your President to report them:

There is a lot of disinformation about health insurance reform out there, spanning from control of personal finances to end of life care. These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation. Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the White House, we’re asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to flag@whitehouse.gov.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/Facts-Are-Stubborn-Things/

No that's not a statement from the the Puffington Host or what have you. Yes it is up on whitehouse.gov, with a whitehouse email address to collect information on Americans.

BTW, I've reported Evo for her fishy fish smacks. They have you in their database clutches now Evo.

 

[turbo]

Gene Green's town hall meeting: packed with people who don't want a government-run "socialist" health insurance program. Then Rep. Green asks how many people are on Medicare, and sheepishly, the hands come up. Are these people brain-dead? If it wasn't for that "socialist" insurance program, most would likely have no coverage. Why are they taking advantage of a publicly-financed health insurance while trying to keep others from getting that option?

 

[fleem]

Why are they taking advantage of a publicly-financed health insurance while trying to keep others from getting that option?

What is illogical about trying to get half your money back from a thief that took your money? So you're saying the best way to fight government behavior you don't believe in, is to increase its efficiency?

 

[turbo]

What is illogical about trying to get half your money back from a thief that took your money? So you're saying the best way to fight government behavior you don't believe in, is to increase its efficiency?

Obviously, they approve of the government behavior when it benefits them personally, because there were a LOT of Medicare recipients in the room and probably many more who didn't raise their hands out of embarrassment at their own hypocrisy. These people are bussed in by lobbyist-controlled special interest groups solely to disrupt the meetings and try to prevent civil discourse.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Why did you bother quoting my question if you weren't going to answer it? Your response indicates you read something that wasn't there. I guess I need to add a sig that says "I'm mostly libertarian, and have little respect for either party". That way if I say something like "Its going to rain tomorrow", people won't immediately presume I'm a democrat, and if I say, "I had eggs for breakfast" they won't immediately presume I'm a republican.

Sorry, I misread your post.

As to who should decide, that is not relevant. If they are disrupting a town hall then they should be asked to leave or be escorted out. There is such a thing as disorderly conduct.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Obviously, they approve of the government behavior when it benefits them personally, because there were a LOT of Medicare recipients in the room and probably many more who didn't raise their hands out of embarrassment at their own hypocrisy. These people are bussed in by lobbyist-controlled special interest groups solely to disrupt the meetings and try to prevent civil discourse.

Yep, just more right-wing sleeze.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

If anyone sees anyone doing anything 'fishy' at these town halls you have a duty to your President to report them:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/Facts-Are-Stubborn-Things/

No that's not a statement from the the Puffington Host or what have you. Yes it is up on whitehouse.gov, with a whitehouse email address to collect information on Americans.

Oh lord. Try to get a grip.

They are trying to track and counter all of the disinformation being spread by Republican operatives. It seems they also need to track and counter all of the bogus claims related to their debunking of bogus claims. You should be ashamed of yourself.

 

[mheslep]

Oh lord. Try to get a grip.

They are trying to track and counter all of the disinformation being spread by Republican operatives.

Republican operatives! Yes, yes they must be stopped! Especially the fishy ones.

 

[turbo]

The name calling 'brain dead', stupid, hick and the rest by the left about American's who disagree (Dems and Reps I see on the news at these events) with the Administration policies is tiresome.

Well, I see a profound lack of intelligence and personal responsibility displayed by people who gladly accept Medicare insurance and then start spouting off in public meetings about the evils of a publicly-financed health insurance program. Typical neo-con "logic" - "It's a socialist hand-out because it doesn't benefit me."

 

[Al68]

Obviously, they approve of the government behavior when it benefits them personally, because there were a LOT of Medicare recipients in the room and probably many more who didn't raise their hands out of embarrassment at their own hypocrisy.

So if government forces someone to buy insurance they don't want, it's hypocritical to be against such a program, but actually use the insurance after being forced to pay for it?

What kind of logic is that?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

How is a democracy supposed to operate when the "opposition party" seeks to spread disinformation as their form of opposition?

I can hardly think of anything more Un-American than disrupting town halls meetings. These people are not loyal Americans - they obviously don't believe in the Constitution. Their idea of free speech is to spread disinformation at the expense of the nation.

 

[Al68]

These people are not loyal Americans - they obviously don't believe in the Constitution.

You mean the constitution with provisions for the federal government to operate a national health care plan at taxpayer expense? Or the real one?

Democrats and the White House are now claiming that the protests were orchestrated by insurance companies and lobbyists. And Harry Reid "scoffed at the notion that the protesters reflect grass-roots sentiment". (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090806/ap_on_go_co/us_health_care_overhaul )

I'm not in favor of any disorderly conduct, but how delusional can Democrats be to think that no one could possible oppose their ideas except insurance companies and lobbyists?

 

[Al68]

The details on what constitutes an "acceptable" health care plan are not final yet, but any American that decides that he/she is not interested in buying such a policy will have to pay an additional income tax equal to (the lesser of) 2.5% of their income (over a specified amount) or the national average cost of an "acceptable" plan. (Source: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d111:H.R.3200: , HR3200)

The only exception is being a member of a recognized religious sect (Amish?) that opposes buying such coverage. Any other individual that is personally against buying a mental health/birth control/abortion/prescription drug, etc. insurance policy will just have to pay the extra tax in addition to the (Major Medical?) policy they have (if it's still legal to have), or buy a policy against their own beliefs to satisfy government.

There are also many Americans (like me) that don't morally oppose such policies, but just don't need or want an expensive insurance policy, and just keep a Major Medical policy that doesn't come anywhere close to "accepted".

Why would Democrats demand participation? (as if the answer isn't obvious).

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

The only exception is being a member of a recognized religious sect (Amish?) that opposes buying such coverage.

Fortunately, I'm Amish, or soon will be. There are two issues here that are getting somewhat conflated. One is the disruption of town hall meetings and the other is the opposition to the plan.

I did a desultory search for video of disrupted meetings and found none. Has someone got something for me? The descriptions I have read leave some doubt in my mind as to whether the politicians were in danger or they were fearful that they could be in danger. I can't comment on the disruption because I simply don't know enough to do so.

Opposition to the plan is to be expected from those whose oxen will be gored, those who are opposed on partisan grounds, those who are misinformed, among others as well those who have genuine concerns. Some people with money and organization to do so are packing these meetings which is what they are supposed to do. If you don't like it, pack them yourself. By all means forbear criticizing the opposition merely for existing.

 

[Al68]

I did a desultory search for video of disrupted meetings and found none. Has someone got something for me? The descriptions I have read leave some doubt in my mind as to whether the politicians were in danger or they were fearful that they could be in danger. I can't comment on the disruption because I simply don't know enough to do so.

Me, either. No one has provided any substantiation for much of anything. The quote in the OP was obvious propaganda, and the AP, and the news services that carry their stories are worthless at reporting any actual facts.

Of course, according to AP, all of the protesters interviewed denied having any connection to any political party or insurance company, but that doesn't mean much. The fact that not a single shred of evidence to the contrary has been offered means a lot, considering the claims made by Dems and the White House.

Are they just using the delusional logic that they must be connected to insurance companies, etc., since they oppose the plan?

 

[mheslep]

..Some people with money and organization to do so are packing these meetings which is what they are supposed to do.

I have not seen evidence of that either, unless putting up some $1.99 website saying Congressman Rockhead's townhall is 6PM at the Moose lodge is considered wielding power. I call paying people to pack a hall the wielding of money and power. If that's going on I'd also like to know where.

 

[Al68]

I have not seen evidence of that either, unless putting up some $1.99 website saying Congressman Rockhead's townhall is 6PM at the Moose lodge is considered wielding power. I call paying people to pack a hall the wielding of money and power. If that's going on I'd also like to know where.

Democrats know very well that wild allegations alone are enough to stir up hatred for their opposition. They've mastered that skill for decades. Reality is irrelevant.

 

[fleem]

What is illogical about trying to get half your money back from a thief that took your money? So you're saying the best way to fight government behavior you don't believe in, is to increase its efficiency?

Obviously, they approve of the government behavior when it benefits them personally, because there were a LOT of Medicare recipients in the room and probably many more who didn't raise their hands out of embarrassment at their own hypocrisy.

So the reason we presume they are hypocrites is because there were a lot of them. If there were fewer then we would presume they are not hypocrites. OK, got it. Thanks.

 

[fleem]

Who would you like to decide whether the conduct is disorderly? The current party in power?

As to who should decide, that is not relevant.

Are you sure it isn't relevant? We must all be aware of the consequences of setting precedent that gives the government more power to silence and intimidate the people. Secondly, 70% or more of what the government has been doing for the last several decades has been unquestionably unconstitutional. This is a group of partisan politicians using tax dollars to propagandize the public (yes, just like republicans do, too), and now we want the government to have the power to silence those that yell at it? And if there is any physical behavior (flailing arms or even shoving), consider that the U.S. revolution included even more violent behavior. The masses have been propagandized to believe in their party--its easy to do, just wear a suit and speak eloquently.

 

[fleem]

These people are not loyal Americans - they obviously don't believe in the Constitution.

Ah yes, the little known "health care" clause of the Constitution, which comes right before the also little known "prohibitions against citizens jeering politicians that commit constitutional violations" clause. I forgot about those two clauses. Thanks for pointing them out.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I knew it was going to happen.

Conservatives complain about liberal protestors during the Bush admin calling them anti-american while the liberals complain about the facist government restricting their freedom of speech.

Now with a liberal admin we have conservatives protesting and liberals complaining that these conservatives are anti-american.

People seriously need to get the **** over themselves and realize how hypocritical they are. Oh but wait! We're right and they're wrong so that makes everything better right?

Ridiculous.

 

[fleem]

Oh by the way, so far the only "disorderly conduct" I've seen is some jeers at some of the things the politicians have said. I'm not so sure jeering at something said by a politician, when that politician is spending tax dollars solely to propagandize a blatant constitutional violation by the federal government, is exactly "criminal and unconstitutional".

 

[fleem]

Also I've heard the argument that these town hall meetings are for informing the people. Ah. So that's the relationship between the people and the government. They talk, we listen.

 

[Office_Shredder]

Also I've heard the argument that these town hall meetings are for informing the people. Ah. So that's the relationship between the people and the government. They talk, we listen.

On the one hand, you have the congressman, whose job it is to represent you and and be informed on these topics. On the other hand, you have the layman, who doesn't have that job. The congressman holds a town hall meeting (which have existed for many, many years, it's not some new Democratic conspiracy to brainwash the populus) to update the people on what he's doing in congress, and to get feedback from them. How is this a bad thing? Do you even know what a town hall meeting is?

 

[fleem]

On the one hand, you have the congressman, whose job it is to represent you and and be informed on these topics. On the other hand, you have the layman, who doesn't have that job. The congressman holds a town hall meeting (which have existed for many, many years, it's not some new Democratic conspiracy to brainwash the populus) to update the people on what he's doing in congress, and to get feedback from them. How is this a bad thing? Do you even know what a town hall meeting is?

You have completely misunderstood my post.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

So, ever the engaged (and engaging) citizen, I sauntered over to the local town hall meeting to jeer at my representative. When I got there, there was a long line and you had to take a number. Most of the jeerers were locals, but there was Ma Hogue right in front of me and everyone knows she was originally from North Jersey. I asked her who bussed her in ha ha, but she said that bus left 40 years ago and I could stuff it where the govt can't find it. When we got inside it was pandemonium. You couldn't hear the anti-healthcare reform jeerers for the sexual pecadillos jeerers who in turn were drowned out by the fiscal irresponsibility jeerers. We took our turns at the mike all at the same time. Then the news people came and there was a mad rush to get in front of the camera so we could wave to our loved ones. They said they wanted to film some violence and could we please provide some. Now I'm not above giving my neighbor a shellacking at any other time but this was a town hall meeting after all. We all declined and the news people shuffled off disappointed, but reported that there was violence anyway. Then the representative thanked us all for keeping things so much quieter than they had been last time and we all went out to rejoin at Dirty Frank's for beer and political discussion.