Physics/metaphysics: where do you draw the line?

[Bellatrix]

Originally posted by Loren Booda
Is there a sharp distinction between physics and metaphysics, or is their difference often undefinable? Can metaphysics ever affect physical reality? Is either more valid than the other?

Hi Loren. There are at least a couple of ways of looking at this.

One that comes to mind is this: that there is a distinction between physics and metaphysics by definition. Physics being a science is the study of our physical world and subject to the rules of science and research to prove facts. MetaPhysics is the study, discover and journey of a non physical world, the world of our inner realities, consciousness and all that journey entails and has been described by some to be Meta or Beyond physics, beyond the reach of the traditional rules of factual proof. That which Science can't access.

Studying Metaphysics is sort of like research in the quantum world. The more magnification you have, the more there is to discover. Fractals are like that. The more you zoom into a fractal design or object, the more you are likely to discover details within that you would have never thought possible. Metaphysically one explores the reaches of their beliefs and ideas to a deeper and deeper place within.

In the metaphysical world, the research and discovery is in a totally different direction than science has access to. Meta physics This kind of study is totally subjective, but, not without proof. As with all research and study, and quest for answers, researching others' experiences tops the list. We connect with some ideas and concepts and reject others, and then use these ideas to form a basis for our own subjective journeys. Instinct plays a primary role in sorting through a lifetime of information and study, as to what ideas and beliefs to choose. It's a subjective journey.

Proof?? Yes, I was coming to that. Now in this category, I can speak for no one but myself. My quest is Consciously creating my reality. I have been influenced by many writers with unique ideas based on their own experiences, and have taken certain ideas that I want to explore and have worked with them now for a few years. For example, the idea that my personal reality is based on all the beliefs, thoughts, expectations, emotions, and intentions that create the filter of who I am. And, that, with work and practice, I can change any of these elements to reshape my reality. Yes, Yes, the Proof. The proof is really only recognizable to me. It's not something that can be documented as experiment in fact. It is actual change manifested in my own life based on the changes I consciously made in my beliefs, thoughts, expectations, emotions and intentions. Besides, results are the only validation needed for proof in metaphysics. Each experience is subjective the the individual exploring their personal reality and deeply personal to them. The results would be irrelevant to others, other than the fact that the process worked.

I know that sounds so airy fru fru and out there that it belongs in the fairy tale category. All I can tell you is that it works. Those elements for the structure of your reality. What you CHOOSE to believe, think, expect, feel and intend is TOTALLY up to you. Look around you. Whatever you are experiencing, relationships, what you see in your community, your world. It all comes from what you believe about your world. Try this. When something in your day pushes a button, you know the kind of button, the agro button, stop and ask yourself Why? why does this particular thing make me feel the way I do? What opinion do I hold that validates this experience? Where did this opinion come from? When was I first aware of this opinon? Going within is the key to resolving all of life's little (and big) annoyances.

Defining Physics and Metaphysics can also be as Validating a Mass Reality and a Personal Reality. Something to think about.

For what it's worth, this has been my experience.

 

[Loren Booda]

Could metaphysics be said to involve anything that is out of our physical control?

 

[Bellatrix]

Originally posted by Loren Booda
Could metaphysics be said to involve anything that is out of our physical control?

Hi Loren. ThankYou for your reply. Yes, I believe so. I posted earlier today to the subject of magic on the Mystics and Pseudo Science forum here on this site that speaks to some of this subject.

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=1240

Metaphysics involves creating with thought, it is a focus of concentration and determination to understand self, reconcile the past, and create the future. Physical conditions may have some impact, depending on the situation. The physical exists because the spirit created it. It is pure energy manifested.

I've been wondering about the context of the phrase "out of our physical control". Whose physical control? The individual? or others trying to stop it, control it, for whatever reason? I'm not understanding what you mean by that term. The physical is created and manipulated. Because a majority of people believe that life is random and is to be reacted to, in that context, there can be control by the physical. Mass conditioning allows it to happen. People are taught and told what their reality is, through family, education, community, society and media. The influence of the status quo is iron clad, UNLESS individuals learn to take their power back and understand that their reality is WHATEVER they want it to be , not necessarily what is dictated to them by their past experience and beliefs.

 

[Istari]

Bellatrix:

Just wanted to say I appreciated your comments to Loren clarifying your position about physics and metaphysics.

I have two comments. Have you ever studied Edmund Husserl's 20th century philosophical method called Phenomenology? Secondly, and more germane to your reply to Loren, would your understanding of metaphysics change if any of the assumptions that led you to formulate your reality turned out to be false?

For instance, you stated, "results are the only validation needed for proof in metaphysics." What if the results are based on something held to be true but in reality are false. What does it mean if misunderstanding can produce actions which only fortify the error into being believed that it is not an error? It may mean nothing significant. Or, it may mean metaphysics has no intrinsic value. Or it may mean any value is relative and therefore even if false, exists and can be utilized in any manner desired. I'd like to know what you think it could mean.

Bellatrix you also stated, "The proof is really only recognizable to me." Isn't the crux of this line of reasoning leading us to say that one's metaphysical beliefs are as real and as existent as those who's beliefs are based on the Scientific Method?

On the one hand Bellatrix you say that physics is distinct from metaphysics. Yet for me, I see the end result being the same. Both disciplines wind up with data on which one creates their reality. So I ask again but in a slightly different way, do you think there is an intrinsic difference either in results or even in the existence itself between physics and metaphysics when a said assumption is later shown false?

-Istari

 

[Loren Booda]

Istari-

An assumption shown to be false by logic alone or through measurement as well?

Bellatrix-

Rather than "out of physical control" one might say "immeasurable" or "unobservable" in nature. By "control" I meant (and poorly labeled) the ability to sense and manipulate, albeit by photon, the material world.

You seem to say that the spirit (source of, or equivalent to, metaphysics as well?) controls physical reality. Is that the spirit of the individual, of Nature, of a Higher intelligence?

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Loren Booda
Could metaphysics be said to involve anything that is out of our physical control?

Yes, because God, gods, demons, the Devil, etc... are all metaphysical concepts. And yet they are entirely beyond physical control.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Hummm, isn't human language metaphysical?, we all use it regularily, it follows metaphysical rules, (No proof) and it is exactly what we use to describe everything.

So how can we separate physics, as that is a description, and metaphysics, when all is simply a mind perception, as attested to by subjective testimony, no matter what!

Can we draw a line?

 

[Istari]

Loren Booda

>An assumption shown to be false by logic alone or through measurement as well?

Either or both, yes. If it is logical, measurement becomes a possibility. If it is illogical, something metaphysical can still be measured (correctly or incorrectly).

When Belatrix stated, "results are the only validation needed for proof in metaphysics" I instantly appreciated this. I tend to agree with it. However, the word "proof" needs clarification. Can truth contradict truth or is proof synonymous with truth? In otherwords, if the proof, the results, are based on a false assumption, isn't the proof false? Perhaps it is better to leave the word "proof" out of Belatrix's saying. Is it better to say, results are the only validation needed for metaphysics? I am trying to get away from "proof." There is little we can prove in physics let alone metaphysics afterall.

I'll give an example. For no good reason, let's say one day I tell a person n=1. In fact, n=2. My explanation, a false one, is desired for some reason by the person I tell it to, regardless that it is false. This person models their life around n=1. It "works" for him or her.

My understanding of Bellatrix's explanation of metaphysics seems to say that the results validate, and are proof of "n" equalling one, when in fact they don't. So I ask, is it correct to say that results are the only "proof" in metaphysics? Proof does not seem to fit here.

I'll end here.

-Istari
[?]

 

[Istari]

Mr Robin Parsons,

I'd like to open a thread about Phenomenology. There are only a handful of universities in the States that have that course of study and unfortunately I didn't attend one that did. I put the word out now, any phenomenologists in the physics forums? I suspect a phenomenologist would be an excellent addition to this discussion.

Please don't ask me what Phenomenology is. I've probably read less than ten hours of information on the subject. Here is a primer for what it's worth:


(from <www.phenomenologycenter.org[/URL]>)
Seven Widely Accepted Features of the Phenomenological Approach

Phenomenologists conduct research in ways that share most of the following positive and negative features.
1. Phenomenologists tend to oppose the acceptance of unobservable matters and grand systems erected in speculative thinking;

2. Phenomenologists tend to oppose naturalism (also called objectivism and positivism), which is the worldview growing from modern natural science and technology that has been spreading from Northern Europe since the Renaissance;

3. Positively speaking, phenomenologists tend to justify cognition (and some also evaluation and action) with reference to what Edmund Husserl called Evidenz, which is awareness of a matter itself as disclosed in the most clear, distinct, and adequate way for something of its kind;

4. Phenomenologists tend to believe that not only objects in the natural and cultural worlds, but also ideal objects, such as numbers, and even conscious life itself can be made evident and thus known;

5. Phenomenologists tend to hold that inquiry ought to focus upon what might be called "encountering" as it is directed at objects and, correlatively, upon "objects as they are encountered" (this terminology is not widely shared, but the emphasis on a dual problematics and the reflective approach it requires is);

6. Phenomenologists tend to recognize the role of description in universal, a priori, or "eidetic" terms as prior to explanation by means of causes, purposes, or grounds; and

7. Phenomenologists tend to debate whether or not what Husserl calls the transcendental phenomenological epochê and reduction is useful or even possible.


-Istari

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Istari
Mr Robin Parsons,

I'd like to open a thread about Phenomenology. There are only a handful of universities in the States that have that course of study and unfortunately I didn't attend one that did. I put the word out now, any phenomenologists in the physics forums? I suspect a phenomenologist would be an excellent addition to this discussion.

Please don't ask me what Phenomenology is. I've probably read less than ten hours of information on the subject. Here is a primer for what it's worth:


(from <www.phenomenologycenter.org[/URL]>)
Seven Widely Accepted Features of the Phenomenological Approach

Phenomenologists conduct research in ways that share most of the following positive and negative features.
1. Phenomenologists tend to oppose the acceptance of unobservable matters and grand systems erected in speculative thinking;

2. Phenomenologists tend to oppose naturalism (also called objectivism and positivism), which is the worldview growing from modern natural science and technology that has been spreading from Northern Europe since the Renaissance;

3. Positively speaking, phenomenologists tend to justify cognition (and some also evaluation and action) with reference to what Edmund Husserl called Evidenz, which is awareness of a matter itself as disclosed in the most clear, distinct, and adequate way for something of its kind;

4. Phenomenologists tend to believe that not only objects in the natural and cultural worlds, but also ideal objects, such as numbers, and even conscious life itself can be made evident and thus known;

5. Phenomenologists tend to hold that inquiry ought to focus upon what might be called "encountering" as it is directed at objects and, correlatively, upon "objects as they are encountered" (this terminology is not widely shared, but the emphasis on a dual problematics and the reflective approach it requires is);

6. Phenomenologists tend to recognize the role of description in universal, a priori, or "eidetic" terms as prior to explanation by means of causes, purposes, or grounds; and

7. Phenomenologists tend to debate whether or not what Husserl calls the transcendental phenomenological epochê and reduction is useful or even possible.


-Istari [/B][/QUOTE]

Perhaps you should start a new thread, solely about phenemology.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Istari, why do you refer the 'phenomenologists' bit at me?

Better yet, start a thread, and if I find it, I'll ask you there, as this thread is still about 'metaphysics'...at least I thought it was.

 

[Bellatrix]

Originally posted by Istari
Bellatrix:

Just wanted to say I appreciated your comments to Loren clarifying your position about physics and metaphysics.

I have two comments. Have you ever studied Edmund Husserl's 20th century philosophical method called Phenomenology? Secondly, and more germane to your reply to Loren, would your understanding of metaphysics change if any of the assumptions that led you to formulate your reality turned out to be false?

For instance, you stated, "results are the only validation needed for proof in metaphysics." What if the results are based on something held to be true but in reality are false. What does it mean if misunderstanding can produce actions which only fortify the error into being believed that it is not an error? It may mean nothing significant. Or, it may mean metaphysics has no intrinsic value. Or it may mean any value is relative and therefore even if false, exists and can be utilized in any manner desired. I'd like to know what you think it could mean.

Bellatrix you also stated, "The proof is really only recognizable to me." Isn't the crux of this line of reasoning leading us to say that one's metaphysical beliefs are as real and as existent as those who's beliefs are based on the Scientific Method?

On the one hand Bellatrix you say that physics is distinct from metaphysics. Yet for me, I see the end result being the same. Both disciplines wind up with data on which one creates their reality. So I ask again but in a slightly different way, do you think there is an intrinsic difference either in results or even in the existence itself between physics and metaphysics when a said assumption is later shown false?

-Istari

Hi Istari. ThankYou for your reply. Please forgive my late reply, I wanted to think about what your wrote.

First, I’m sorry, I’m not familiar with Edmund Husserl or Phenomenology. I am glad that I waited to post so that I could get some idea of this philosophy from your post to Robin. From what little I know, and I know only what you’ve posted, it seems to me that the philosophy looks for physical evidence and proof, generally in the same way science does. Their methodology may be quite different from science, but both disciplines focus on finding answers within physical evidence.

Metaphysics is not only valuable and it is simply unavoidable on the human journey. It is the NON PHYSICAL STUDY OF THE NATURE OF REALITY, both personal and mass realities. It does require that TRUST and FAITH replace the scientific method in it’s exploration.

The nature and structure of reality is flexible and provides structure for ANYONE’S chosen beliefs. Noone’s reality can ever be false. It just is. It is subjective to the individual holding those beliefs, and just as valid as the next individuals’. As for my reality? What I’ve come to know as my reality is based more on a recognition of truths recognized and identified within me, more than an assumption and/or hypothesis. It’s been the focus of my inner journey for many years. My core belief and understanding of metaphysics is built on a foundation which has a structural framework that creates reality from the elements or color palet of BELIEF, THOUGHT, EMOTIONS, INTENTIONS and EXPECTATIONS. These elements create a unique picture of who you are. The ‘colors’ you use to paint the picture of your personality is totally up to you. So, every belief is valid to the individual holding it. It is an element of the structure of the individual’s beliefs. Over the years, I’ve been examing my life one issue at a time and connecting them with the beliefs that are at the core of the issues. It’s been a journey of what I term ‘practical metaphysics’ where I don’t just read and hypothesize about theory, rather it’s been a journey of testing out theory and making practical changes in my life using metaphysical techniques.

one's metaphysical beliefs are as real and as existent as those who's beliefs are based on the Scientific Method?

Yes, exactly. You create your own reality from what you choose to believe in and that reality is just as valid as anyone or bizillion realities here or in any dimension. There is a mass belief that is taught as part of our conditioning, that we are all the same, we must buy into the mass reality, live by the same rules of community, culture, religion, etc. We are taught to trust ‘facts’ taught to us in school, trust what we read in the newspapers and hear on the news, trust the politicians, the lawyers, the doctors, the scientists, the scientific method. We are taught that the only thing that can qualify as valid or having value is if someone has proof that it exists or endorses it. Individuality is generally shunned in the community, particularly evident in memories of school. If anyone was the least bit different from everyone else, they were shunned to the outside of the ‘circle’. These days, in many communities, it has excalated to bullying, resulting in increasing physical and emotional abuse, and in some cases murder and suicide. All because we are taught that being different is not acceptable. The whole mentality of sameness and conformity is at the root of race conflict and political conflict on all levels of governent internationally. It’s like this big competition, ‘I’m right!’, ‘No, I’m right’, etc etc etc. The only thing that will resolve these conflicts is accepting the differences, not agreeing, but simply accepting, letting people be, respecting each others’ choices, etc. But, as long as there are organizations, cultural, political, religious, etc, with agendas and alterior motives, there will always be elements of manipulation and coersion. It’s kind of at the core of a good portion of conflict.

Understanding the structure of reality, and understanding that all realities are valid, and just need to be accepted unconditionally without judgement and with simple compassion for the human journey that each of us takes, there is no such thing as false or wrong. It all exists together.

Thank you for your post, Istari.

May the Force be with you.

 

[Bellatrix]

Originally posted by Loren Booda
Istari-

An assumption shown to be false by logic alone or through measurement as well?

Bellatrix-

Rather than "out of physical control" one might say "immeasurable" or "unobservable" in nature. By "control" I meant (and poorly labeled) the ability to sense and manipulate, albeit by photon, the material world.

Could metaphysics be said to involve anything that is out of our physical control?

Hi Loren. ThankYou for clarifying the term for me. So, to answer your question properly, I would have to say that results are observable but not measurable in the scientific sense. I can tell you from my own personal experience, that I’ve observed great improvement over the years of my abilities to analyze and reconcile beliefs that result in marked changes in outer circumstances. I am observing more frequently and consistently the results of my inner efforts, but, no one else is privy. It is a personal journey.

Joesph Campbell, (Power of Myth) has said that the myths of the world exist to attempt to describe in simple folk terms an understanding of reality for the culture. He also pointed out how contemporary culture is sadly lacking a modern mythology to help the culture understand. But, then he points to George Lucas, and the first Star Wars Trilogy and how it became immensley popular because he gave modern futuristic myth so that people could learn to relate on terms more familiar with them. Yes, it’s a movie, it’s a story, but it is also a modern mythology. Study to be a ‘Jedi’ knight, learn about the Force and how it be a part of your life. To me, it is a religious metaphor. The Force is God Force or God. It is an energy, neither good nor evil, just pure energy that you can imprint who you are and your intentions onto it and create your destiny the way you want. The film is chocka block full of metaphysical teachings couched in the metaphor, the story of a young man searching for his dream.

You seem to say that the spirit (source of, or equivalent to, metaphysics as well?) controls physical reality. Is that the spirit of the individual, of Nature, of a Higher intelligence?

Metaphysics is the study of NON PHYSICAL REALITY. Each of us exists in the image of God, or God Force, as pure energy of light of the spirit and our purpose is creativity. Creating a universe, solar system, this planet, the physical history of the planet and all the inhabitants, mysteries and all, creating cultures, religions, creating ourselves to be born into the physical experience to learn and become aware of who we really are. Creating multi-dimesions of reality to create simultaneously, like juggleing a hodgepodge of items, banana, baseball, alarm clock, sneaker, and a Mack truck. There is no limit to imagination, the more you have the more spectacular the creation.

As far as controlling physical reality, I would say that become aware of and consciously connect with your Higher Self, still you, but your true you, who exists outside your physical life experience. I would call Higher Self a guide, intuition, angel on your shoulder, or your favourite invisible friend, many different things, depending on personal beliefs.


May the Force be with you.

 

[Istari]

My core belief and understanding of metaphysics is built on a foundation which has a structural framework that creates reality from the elements or color palet of BELIEF, THOUGHT, EMOTIONS, INTENTIONS and EXPECTATIONS. (Bellatrix)

Bellatrix, I appreciate your response, and especially this foundation that consists of a five-fold framework for your understanding of metaphysics. Just one more question if I may be permitted. Is the first word, belief, required to incorporate empiricism in the formation of your reality-building framework?

-Istari

 

[Bellatrix]

Originally posted by Istari
Bellatrix, I appreciate your response, and especially this foundation that consists of a five-fold framework for your understanding of metaphysics. Just one more question if I may be permitted. Is the first word, belief, required to incorporate empiricism in the formation of your reality-building framework?

-Istari

Hi Istari. ThankYou for your reply. BELIEF is the foundation or premise. THOUGHT arises from BELIEF and combined with EMOTION or how you feel in response to your circumstances manifests into INTENTIONS and EXPECTATIONS. Your EMOTIONS, how you feel, are the fuel to project your BELIEFS AND THOUGHTS, INTENTION forms the direction, and EXPECTATION attracts the desired (or undesired) results. I say, desired or undesired because the strongest beliefs, emotions, and expectations will get you results.

I had a friend years ago, who, with his wife, purchased a ‘heritage home’ and renovated it. He had a fear of being in a fire, so in the reno, he installed smoke detectors, and folding ladders from second story windows, and they regularly practiced fire drills every month to make sure each of them knew what to do IF there was a fire. Today, smoke detectors, etc doesn’t sound all that unusual, but in the early ‘70’s most people weren’t even aware of such things. A couple of years later, the house burned to the ground. My friend and his wife and kids all got out safely like they had rehearsed every month since they moved in. He had a fear of fire, he projected it onto his family, they practiced for the inevitable and achieved the exact result he wanted, which was to get everybody out alive.

Examine your beliefs closely and decide what kind of reality you REALLY want.

FOCUS ON WHAT YOU WANT, NOT WHAT YOU DON’T WANT.


May the Force be with you.