Problems I Have With Electrostatics and Pith Ball Experiments

In summary, the experiment suggests that when two bodies with opposite charges are brought near each other, the pith ball will polarize and become only interested in the receiving body. Additionally, the process of transferring charge seems to be pointless and inefficient.
  • #1
AspiringEEngineer
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TL;DR Summary
I am trying to wrap my head around the explanation for the results discovered by the pith ball experiments. In particular, the fact that when a body is rubbed with another body, touches a pith ball, then is repelled by the pith ball it just touched; I do not think the transfer of electrons can satisfy the phenomenon.
As a preliminary note, most people flex about how dumb questions and then continue to school and scold curious minds. Instead of taking a demeaning approach I just ask for respectful insight to quench curiosity.

I will 1) explain the experiment as I know it to be, 2) explain what I have been taught as to what is happening, and 3) my reasoning as to why I do not see how what I've been taught makes sense to what is actually happening.

I understand that it is most likely a mere misunderstanding in 2) or 3) or both, but that is why I am here: To clear up my confusion.

1)

A pith ball can be suspended on a silk thread and then two separate bodies (glass rod and silk cloth) can interact to cause electrostatic actions. Before the two bodies interact, there appears to be no effects on the pith ball-- namely, there does not appear to be any attraction or repulsion with either the glass or the silk cloth. Only when the two bodies are rubbed against each other do interesting things occur. The pithball is attracted to both the bodies. Additionally when-- let's say-- the glass rod touches the pith ball and then removed from the pith ball, it will instead repel the glass rod whilst still being attracted to the silk cloth.

2)

When the two bodies undergo no interaction, they are in net neutral charged state and have no electrostatic forces acting on the pith ball. It is as if the pith ball does not even know the two bodies are there across space. When the two bodies interact by means of friction, they transfer charge through conduction. The electrons on the silk cloth rub off onto the glass rod. once this interaction takes place, a net negative and positive charge exists on the glass rod and silk cloth respectively. Once exposed near the pith ball, the pith act as if it now knows the bodies exist and even though the pith ball is net neutral, it will polarize the particles inside it due to induction (the negative charges will repel against the presence of the glass rod creating the pith ball as net positive on its side closest to the glass rod). Once the glass rod touches the pith ball, it will send electrons to the pith ball in the form of conduction. Only when the glass rod is pulled away from the pith ball does it start to now repel the glass rod as both are net negative. On the other hand, the pith ball is still attracted to the silk cloth because it is net positive. Thus, the discovery of "opposite charges attract and like charges repel" was deduced.

3)

Problem #1: Somehow it seems as if the assumption that the inner particles (of the pith ball and glass rod) polarize and become only interested in another body (which is also polarized) across space. This means the electron particles inside the pith ball feel more force from the glass rod across space than it does from its own protons trying to attract it. Does this mean the negative repulsion of the distant glass rod is stronger than the protons pull nearby? Further, the silk cloth's protons would have to pull the electrons of the pith ball better than the pith balls own protons are pulling them.

Problem #2: Once bodies touch, the particles are somehow apt to transfer to the other body which would 1) make the receiving body net negative now and 2) the releasing body is now net positive and immediately should want its electrons back; since the pith ball would be net negative, it should gladly give the electrons back making the transfer process pointless to begin with. But, somehow they are prevented from going back.

Problem #3: Even if #2 was explained by the releasing body having excess charge, giving pith ball some of that charge, and still having excess charge (which means it wouldn't want those electrons back); The releasing body was somehow forced by the silk cloth as way of friction to accept electrons it never wanted to begin with.

Problem #4: Since the silk cloth and glass rod are net neutral at the start, touching them alone would not cause a net charge. Somehow friction is needed which is like touching each other over and over again very quickly, which should not do anything since they are neutral. Furthermore, even if the friction activated some type of potential causing the transfer of charge, once the silk cloth gives an electron to the glass rod (making the cloth net positive and rod net negative), why doesn't it immediately want its electron back? And once they are net opposite charges, why don't they neutralize those charges once they are touched again after the friction is said and done?

Problem #5: When the glass rod touches the pith ball, why does it stay stuck to the rod until it is pulled away? If after the rod transfers charges and the pith ball becomes net negative, shouldn't it repel itself immediately away from the rod once the transfer takes place? Instead, it is just adhesive to the rod until forcefully removed.
 
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  • #2
Not an expert in this area, but I'll give it a go.

AspiringEEngineer said:
Problem #1: Somehow it seems as if the assumption that the inner particles (of the pith ball and glass rod) polarize and become only interested in another body (which is also polarized) across space. This means the electron particles inside the pith ball feel more force from the glass rod across space than it does from its own protons trying to attract it. Does this mean the negative repulsion of the distant glass rod is stronger than the protons pull nearby? Further, the silk cloth's protons would have to pull the electrons of the pith ball better than the pith balls own protons are pulling them.
If the electrons in the ball felt a larger force from the rod than from the protons they are bound to then you would have an enormous arc as the electrons would be ripped from their atoms and into the rod. Polarization happens because the electrons in the ball are not rigidly bound to their atoms and molecules. Some can move around somewhat without coming completely unbound. The relatively small electric field from the charged rod is enough to move them somewhat, setting up an imbalance in the distribution of charges inside the ball that leads to the attraction between the rod and the ball. Plus, depending on the material, sometimes the molecules themselves can move slightly, rotate, or deform to bring their differently charged parts closer to or further away from the rod.

AspiringEEngineer said:
Problem #2: Once bodies touch, the particles are somehow apt to transfer to the other body which would 1) make the receiving body net negative now and 2) the releasing body is now net positive and immediately should want its electrons back; since the pith ball would be net negative, it should gladly give the electrons back making the transfer process pointless to begin with. But, somehow they are prevented from going back.
The transfer isn't instantaneous. Charges are moved from one body to the other because of the presence of nearby opposite charges in the polarized material. Which makes sense. If there are more positive charges near the surface closest to the rod because of polarization, then once the two objects touch the electrons in the rod would begin to move towards those positive charges. This continues, with electrons moving from the rod to the ball until the electric field from the electrons equals the field from the positive charges of the polarized molecules.

What you would see over time is a quick rush of current that gradually slows as the opposing field builds up, eventually reaching zero when the fields reach equilibrium. While this appears essentially instantaneous to us, it is not.

AspiringEEngineer said:
Problem #3: Even if #2 was explained by the releasing body having excess charge, giving pith ball some of that charge, and still having excess charge (which means it wouldn't want those electrons back); The releasing body was somehow forced by the silk cloth as way of friction to accept electrons it never wanted to begin with.

AspiringEEngineer said:
Problem #4: Since the silk cloth and glass rod are net neutral at the start, touching them alone would not cause a net charge. Somehow friction is needed which is like touching each other over and over again very quickly, which should not do anything since they are neutral.
In addition to the attraction felt from an object with a net charge, electrons can also be attracted to the individual atoms and molecules in the ball if the materials making up the rod and the ball (or any two objects) have different electrochemical potentials. This is why packing peanuts can stick to a cat, for example, even though neither of them have a net charge, and also why rubbing your feet on carpet can charge you enough to give you a shock when touching a doorknob.

Put very, very simply, some atoms and molecules attract electrons more strongly than others, even if both are neutral. When put into contact with each other the atom that more strongly attracts electrons will tend to attract and keep extra electrons once the atoms are separated. The reasons for this are quite complicated and involve some concepts from chemistry that I don't know well enough to explain. The net effect when you have a large number of atoms from one material touch a large number of atoms from the other is that a small proportion of them will experience a transfer of electrons and thus a transfer of charge from one object to another.

AspiringEEngineer said:
Furthermore, even if the friction activated some type of potential causing the transfer of charge, once the silk cloth gives an electron to the glass rod (making the cloth net positive and rod net negative), why doesn't it immediately want its electron back?
I don't have a good, easy to understand answer for you. Atomic and molecular physics is quite complicated and often unintuitive and I don't understand the material enough myself to give you a good explanation. The best I can do is to refer you to what I've said about electrochemical potentials above and hope that someone else here can do a better job than I have.
 
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  • #3
Hi,

Is english your native language? If so, read your post and clear it up.

Try to separate observations from wild guesses and hearsay.

##\ ##
 
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  • #4
BvU said:
Is english your native language? If so, read your post and clear it up.
Forgive me, but I don't see any real problems with the OP's grammar, spelling, etc.

BvU said:
Try to separate observations from wild guesses and hearsay.
I didn't see anything glaringly wrong with the OP's questions. Can you elaborate?
 
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  • #5
Hi @AspiringEEngineer. I suspect what you are describing doesn’t actually happen. I just tried something similar. You can easily repeat my experiment as follows.

1) Get a small piece of tissue paper and a plastic object (I used a TV remote control).

2) Rub the plastic on your sleeve.

3) Use the charged plastic to pick up the piece of tissue paper. The paper sticks to the plastic after touching it. It can be pulled off - but then gets pulled back. No repulsion.

Maybe you are thinking of a different experiment such as sprinkling a Van de Graff generator sphere with confetti. The confetti is initially attracted then repelled after making contact. That’s because it’s easy for charge to be transferred from the generator’s high potential conducting sphere to the confetti; the confetti picks up charge of the same sign a the sphere.

Note, silk, glass and pith-balls are insulators. There is no conduction, though there could be charge-transfer by direct contact where the surfaces touch. But I don't think you can get enough to make repulsion possible.
 
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  • #7
AspiringEEngineer said:
2) Once exposed near the pith ball, the pith act as if it now knows the bodies exist and even though the pith ball is net neutral, it will polarize the particles inside it due to induction

3) Problem #1: Somehow it seems as if the assumption that the inner particles (of the pith ball and glass rod) polarize and become only interested in another body (which is also polarized) across space. This means the electron particles inside the pith ball feel more force from the glass rod across space than it does from its own protons trying to attract it. Does this mean the negative repulsion of the distant glass rod is stronger than the protons pull nearby? Further, the silk cloth's protons would have to pull the electrons of the pith ball better than the pith balls own protons are pulling them.

Steve4Physics said:
Note, silk, glass and pith-balls are insulators. There is no conduction

Just a comment: nowadays, "pith balls" are usually composed of styrofoam coated in conductive paint.(link) Styrofoam molecules inside the Faraday cage formed by the conductive paint will not be polarized. Modern pith balls are actually conductors. If you touch a charged electroscope with a pith ball between your fingers, it rapidly discharges through the pith ball and your body.
 
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  • #8
Orthoceras said:
Just a comment: nowadays, "pith balls" are usually composed of styrofoam coated in conductive paint.(link) Styrofoam molecules inside the Faraday cage formed by the conductive paint will not be polarized. Modern pith balls are actually conductors.
Interesting. I wasn’t taking the pith!

It's an age thing, the pith balls we had in school (~60 years ago, aargh) were simple insulators.

In fact it seems that you can still buy uncoated (plain) pith balls, e.g. https://www.iecpl.com.au/product/electrostatic-pith-balls-plain-pk-12._423

An isolated conducting pith ball will relatively easily acquire some charge by contact with a charged object, giving repulsion after contact, as described by the OP.
 
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  • #9
Steve4Physics said:
It's an age thing, the pith balls we had in school (~60 years ago, aargh) were simple insulators.

Possibly you are so extremely young that you don't remember that in the 19th century a pith ball was classified as a bad conductor, instead of as an insulator. The pith ball electroscope, the predecessor of the gold lead electroscope, consisted of two pith balls, connected by a conductive cotton thread, securely inclosed inside a well-dried glass jar or bottle, to prevent the discharge of the electricity from the balls into the surrounding air.(link) Had silk been used instead of cotton to connect the balls, they would not have received the necessary charge.

pith ball electroscope.png
 
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  • #10
Orthoceras said:
Possibly you are so extremely young that you don't remember that in the 19th century a pith ball was classified as a bad conductor, instead of as an insulator. The pith ball electroscope, the predecessor of the gold lead electroscope ...
That's really interesting. I'd never even heard of a pith ball electroscope.

But finding a context where I can be described as extremely young is always welcome!
 
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  • #11
Steve4Physics said:
In fact it seems that you can still buy uncoated (plain) pith balls, e.g. https://www.iecpl.com.au/product/electrostatic-pith-balls-plain-pk-12._423
I bought some uncoated plain pith; interesting to see what it is made from. Again, if you touch a charged electroscope with a pith stick or a pith disc between your fingers, it discharges through the pith and your body. Plain pith is not a good insulator.

pith discs and pith sticks.jpg
 
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FAQ: Problems I Have With Electrostatics and Pith Ball Experiments

What is electrostatics and how does it relate to pith ball experiments?

Electrostatics is the study of stationary electric charges and their interactions. Pith ball experiments involve using a small ball made of a lightweight material, such as pith or polystyrene, to demonstrate the principles of electrostatics.

Why do pith balls move towards or away from each other during an electrostatics experiment?

Pith balls are attracted to each other when they have opposite charges and repel each other when they have the same charge. This is due to the principle of electrostatic force, which states that opposite charges attract and like charges repel.

How can I prevent my pith ball from sticking to the walls of the container during an experiment?

To prevent your pith ball from sticking to the walls of the container, make sure the container is clean and dry before starting the experiment. You can also try using a different type of container, such as a plastic or glass one, that may have less friction with the pith ball.

What factors can affect the accuracy of pith ball experiments?

The accuracy of pith ball experiments can be affected by factors such as air currents, humidity, and the presence of other electrically charged objects in the vicinity. It is important to conduct the experiment in a controlled environment and to take multiple measurements to ensure accuracy.

Can pith ball experiments be used to measure the strength of an electric field?

Yes, pith ball experiments can be used to measure the strength of an electric field. By measuring the distance between the pith balls and the amount of charge on each ball, the strength of the electric field can be calculated using Coulomb's law.

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