Pronouncing Wiener: Is it Viner or Wee-ner?

[redargon]

I don't think it is from films that this thread is the way it is. This a typical potato (po-taa-to) potato (po-tay-to) problem. I didn't learn my German from hollywood movies, i learned it from two different teachers, a girlfriend and from working in Germany with German colleagues and friends. I don't know how they would all pronounce it, but from the teachers I had, they would have wanted me to to say Vee-nuhr, in a rising tone for Vee with a dropped tone for nuhr and a semi guttural r. I'm not saying you're wrong or I'm right. That's just they way I'd do it from what I was taught from the native german speakers that I learned from. I also speak Dutch (well Flemish actually) and the W is pronounced almost exactly like in english (but maybe a bit more like a Wh). Yes they're all Germanic languages.

my dad says graph (graf) I say graph (graaf), but it doesn't bother me and both are correct.

To the OP, pick one you're comfortable with and let us know so we can end this (somewhat endless) debate.

 

[Andre]

well perhaps it helps to just look at a bit of every day German. An interview with Angela Merkel

9TmtTStSawk[/youtube] Spot the W...e[/b] sieht ihre [b]Wertung[/b] .. etc etc

 

[jtbell]

I forgot to ask my wife about this yesterday... I'll try to remember to do it tonight. It could be a dialectal thing, although I find it hard to believe that someone like Angela Merkel could slip into dialect during a TV interview.

After Googling around on German dialects and phonology, I've come up with a tentative idea. What you're hearing as an English 'w' sound might actually be a labiodental approximant.

The sound that English-speakers associate with 'v' is a voiced labiodental fricative: the upper front teeth and lower lip touch lightly or almost touch, mostly (but not completely) blocking the airstream. In a labiodental approximant, the teeth and lip are further apart and there is little or no blockage of the airstream.

The English 'w' sound is a voiced labio-velar approximant. The back of the tongue rises close to the curtain in the back of the mouth, and the lips are rounded. The teeth don't come into play at all.

I found a page (but now I can't find it again!) which indicates that in southern Germany (presumably including Austria), the 'v' sound sometimes alternates with the labiodental approximant.

 

[OmCheeto]

Here's another Deutsche page which pronounces names starting with W's somewhat differently depending on the name:

Wilma, Werner, und Walter sound like V's to me, but Wolfgang sounds like a W.

http://www.nordicnames.de/Aussprache.html

I do seem to recall from my 4 years of studying the German language that there are certain sounds, which although the same to an American ear, are obviously different to a German ear. I can distinctly remember Herr Manchester saying over and over again, "Now try and hear the difference: Mutter, Mütter, Mutter, Mütter, Mutter, Mütter. There, could you hear the difference?"
Class, "No."

 

[jtbell]

What you're hearing as an English 'w' sound might actually be a labiodental approximant.

[...] The English 'w' sound is a voiced labio-velar approximant. The back of the tongue rises close to the curtain in the back of the mouth, and the lips are rounded. The teeth don't come into play at all.

Aha! Now I remember that Andre is Dutch, and according to Wikipedia's Dutch phonology page, Dutch has the labiodental approximant (and spells it "w"), but not the (English style) voiced labio-velar approximant "w".

 

[Andre]

My nationality and the languages which I speak are not relevant anymore when we hear the pronounciation of the W by Angela Merkel and her interviewer. I have already alknowledged the minute differece between the English and German W, but that does not make the latter a V by any means, like the V for Wery or wegetables or Windicate or Wermont

 

[redargon]

ummm... again: potato potato.

 

[Andre]

ummm... again: potato potato.

Sure whatever, you have all the right to pronounce Wiener as Feener in a languague that can pronounce ghoti as fish, just don't think that it has anything to do with the german languague.

 

[redargon]

It's a comparision to something that occurs in other languages that could cause confusion or debate on pronounciations. It is also an attempt to show that the difference is moot.

Are you saying that my (and others here that don't agree with you) have inferior German language skills or knowledge or experience?

Just remember also, that languages evolve and change all the time. Languages are not mathematics, there are not always black and white answers, it's a little grey actually. Bringing me again to my conclusion that the difference between wiener and wiener is moot.

 

[fuzzyfelt]

I wonder if the problems in this thread are related to those Romans mispronouncing 'v' -weni, widi, wici ?

 

[Andre]

It might Fi, however I see it more like a problem as one country dictating another country how they should evolve their language, in order for them not being wrong.

 

[Born2bwire]

well perhaps it helps to just look at a bit of every day German. An interview with Angela Merkel

9TmtTStSawk[/youtube] Spot the W...than the German "ch," to me it sounds harder.

 

[Andre]

The closest thing to it is an English "v." The English does not have the German "w" sound, as jtbell explained. The closest we have is the English "v."

I don't think so. Don't use the 'Vee's of veal* or Venus* to pronounce Wiener*. The English W of we* or weevil* is much closer.

*Hit the speaker icon for the pronounciation.

 

[Born2bwire]

I don't think so. Don't use the 'Vee's of veal* or Venus* to pronounce Wiener*. The English W of we* or weevil* is much closer.

*Hit the speaker icon for the pronounciation.

I don't think using an English dictionary is going to help here when we're talking about German pronunciation. We could try a German dictionary: http://www.leo.org/dict/audio_de/w/Wien.mp3 which uses what is closest to the English "v" (though I think it isn't as hard as the English "v," to me it sounds like a cross between the "f" and "v" but you don't articulate your mouth that gives it the "wuh" sound that the English "w" has). I think jtbell maybe right, being Dutch colors your perception of the pronunciation as your language has the German "w" where English doesn't.

http://dict.leo.org/ende?lp=ende&la...e=both&pinyin=diacritic&search=wien&relink=on

 

[Andre]

No need to talk about my colors when there is abundance of authentic German tongue examples around:

9TmtTStSawk[/youtube] Spot the W...here do you hear an Engish V in the German W?

 

[Born2bwire]

And again, all of those are "v."

 

[Andre]

That's not consistent with this reaction on the interview with Angela Merkel

... It could be a dialectal thing, although I find it hard to believe that someone like Angela Merkel could slip into dialect during a TV interview.

why not

but those are all V's

instead?