Proving Surjective Functions with Finite Y: No Axiom of Choice Required

In summary, the conversation discusses how to prove the statement without using the Axiom of Choice. The approach suggested is to perform induction over the cardinality of Y, which means proving the statement for different values of n. The first case, where n=1, is straightforward. The second case, where n+1, involves removing a specific member from Y and finding a function from Y to X that satisfies the given conditions.
  • #1
jacobrhcp
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Homework Statement



Prove, without using the Axiom of Choice:

if f: X->Y is surjective and Y is finite, there exists a 'section', a function s:Y->X such that f(s(y))=y for all y in Y

Hint: perform induction over the cardinality of Y

The Attempt at a Solution



Induction over the cardinality of Y? I don't even know what they mean. I'd say this would require the AC because we need to pick one of the elements of f^-1 (y) for all y in Y. since X is infinite, one of these f^-1 (y) has to be infinite as well, and I don't know how to pick a specific element of this if I can't just say 'I pick some'.

And I also don't understand the hint. Some help would be appreciated.
 
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  • #2
You don't know "proof by induction"? Surely you are just misunderstanding. Since Y is finite, its cardinality is some positive integer, say n. Prove this statement by induction on n.

If n= 1, that means that Y contains exactly one member, call it "y". There exist some function from X such that f(x)= y for all x in X. Can you find a function from Y to X, s(y) such that f(s(y))= y? That should be pretty easy.

Now, suppose that statement is true when y contains n members and prove that it is true and prove it is true when Y contains n+1 members. (Hint: remove a specific one of the members of Y.)
 
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  • #3
Ah, thank you, yes I was misunderstanding. I do know proof by induction yes, but 'over the cardinality of Y' was a weird statement to me. This clears things up, I should be fine now.
 

FAQ: Proving Surjective Functions with Finite Y: No Axiom of Choice Required

What is the Finite Axiom of Choice?

The Finite Axiom of Choice is a mathematical principle that states that given a non-empty set of non-empty sets, there exists a function that can choose one element from each set.

Why is the Finite Axiom of Choice important?

The Finite Axiom of Choice is important because it allows for the construction of mathematical proofs and theorems that would otherwise be impossible. It is a fundamental axiom in set theory and has many applications in mathematics and computer science.

How does the Finite Axiom of Choice differ from the Axiom of Choice?

The Axiom of Choice is a more general principle that applies to infinite sets, while the Finite Axiom of Choice only applies to finite sets. Additionally, the Axiom of Choice is controversial among mathematicians, while the Finite Axiom of Choice is generally accepted as a basic principle.

What are some common misconceptions about the Finite Axiom of Choice?

One common misconception is that the Finite Axiom of Choice is a weaker version of the Axiom of Choice. In fact, the Finite Axiom of Choice is independent of the Axiom of Choice and cannot be derived from it. Another misconception is that the Finite Axiom of Choice implies the well-ordering principle, which is not true.

Can the Finite Axiom of Choice be proved?

No, the Finite Axiom of Choice cannot be proved. It is an axiom, meaning it is a basic assumption that is accepted without proof. However, its consistency with other axioms has been studied and it has been shown to be consistent with the other axioms of set theory.

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