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Siv
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I think evidence is increasingly suggesting that an explosion of sugar, HFCS and refined carb consumption has led to the huge increase in incidence of cancer in the past few decades.
Evo said:You will need to supply a study from a peer reviewed accepted mainstream scientific journal for this claim. Medical or scientific claims of this nature need documentation. Thanks.
Thanks Siv! That's more than I can read right now!Siv said:http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/87/5/1384
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/84/5/1171
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/80/2/348
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/86/5/1495
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/86/4/899
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/91/3/535
More and more evidence suggests carbs are the culprit, not fat - not just for cancer but diabetes, CHD and CVD. Please read "Good Calories, Bad Calories" by Gary Taubes for a ton of evidence, journal articles and references. Also read Dr. Bernstein, the Whole Health Source Blog, Heart Scan Blog and Panu.
Siv said:I think evidence is increasingly suggesting that an explosion of sugar, HFCS and refined carb consumption has led to the huge increase in incidence of cancer in the past few decades.
I would like to see the source for that last graph. URL please.hamster143 said:I don't see that increase in the chart I posted.
Siv said:I would like to see the source for that last graph. URL please.
It would be interesting to see the trends from the 1800s onwards. Processed food has started coming in from the 1930s or so, right ? Soft drinks with HFCS, refined flour products with sugar and the tons of omega-6 fats in foods etc.
Siv said:I would like to see the source for that last graph. URL please.
It would be interesting to see the trends from the 1800s onwards. Processed food has started coming in from the 1930s or so, right ? Soft drinks with HFCS, refined flour products with sugar and the tons of omega-6 fats in foods etc.
Cute, that brought a smile to my face :)Proton Soup said:the increase in obesity isn't about carbs, it's about eating too many calories. Taubes is a fruitcake.
My mistake re: HFCS. BTW its started coming into food stores here.hamster143 said:http://cancer2000.net/
HFCS specifically appeared in the United States around 1975, and it's still quite rare outside the US.
Hmm. Interesting.But all it did was displace some sugar. Sugar consumption was high long before that. I can't find data for the US, but sugar consumption in the UK quadrupled between 1850 and 1900 and remained within 25% of the present level since then.
The USDA website has data on consumption of red meat (mainly beef & pork) in the US going back to 1909, and those levels also have been steady for the duration at ~100 lbs/person/year. Prior to that, there were some significant regional variations. Apparently Americans always ate plenty of meat, but, for example, mid-19th century Britons only averaged 20 lbs/person/year or so.
Refined flour seems to have come into existence (and then rapidly replaced whole wheat flour) around the same time, between 1850 and 1900.
Siv said:Cute, that brought a smile to my face :)
But your statement is still an ad hominem cum opinion.
Dare I ask you to try and rebut the plethora of evidence in Taubes' book ?!
That sounds nice but unfortunately, our body is far more complicated than that. The type of calorie matters hugely. The set points are different depending on whether your diet is high carb or low carb.Proton Soup said:i think we can start by recognizing that americans are fatter for a simple reason: we are eating more calories. it's a simple matter of energy balance. how much heavier do you suppose an average woman would have to be to support an extra 300 or so calories a day?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diet_and_obesity#Average_calorie_consumption
i'll try to dig up some stuff on HFCS in the next day or two, but will mention a couple of things off the bat. the first is that HFCS, like sucrose (cane sugar) contains both glucose and fructose, in similar proportions. in fact, sucrose gets broken down in the stomach to exactly this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sucrose#Hydrolysis
and the whole reason you've got so much HFCS now is politics. we could have had tons of cane sugar imported cheaply from Cuba or Brazil, but our government has for a long time protected the US sugar cane industry. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hfcs
and there actually was a real issue with HFCS introducing mercury into the food supply early on, but none of this came to light until after the industry had already switched to acid/base reagents that aren't produced by mercury cell process. but that has nothing to do with glucose/fructose itself.
The RDA for Vitamin D is a joke. Hardly anybody tests their Vitamin D levels with a 25 hydroxy vitamin D blood test.ViewsofMars said:I doubt that. From the Office of Dietary Supplements - National Institutes of Health:
When your skin is exposed for a length of time, you burn in the sun if you don't wear sunscreen . I take a daily multi-vitamin and adhere to the dietary Guidelines from the Dietary Supplement Fact Sheet: Vitamin D :
How so? Give me a quote and the link (url) that supports your claim.
Siv said:That sounds nice but unfortunately, our body is far more complicated than that. The type of calorie matters hugely. The set points are different depending on whether your diet is high carb or low carb.
Tons of wiki quotes. Dont tell me wikipedia is now a peer reviewed journal ;)
HFCS has been proven to be more harmful than ordinary sucrose - please go to pubmed and do a search on HFCS.
The whole book reads like pubmed. He references tons of studies and peer reviewed journals. So much so that the book is hard to get through sometimes.Proton Soup said:oh, i will. and in the meantime, find me something from Taubes that is more than him just stating his opinion. most everything there on Pubmed attributed to G Taubes is either him commenting on a paper, or something for which he is the sole author, yet appears to simply open-ended comments.
Siv said:The whole book reads like pubmed. He references tons of studies and peer reviewed journals. So much so that the book is hard to get through sometimes.
Most people dismiss the book without even reading a few pages.
Same way religious folks do with Dawkins' books I guess
Plus its now being accepted by so many. More and more research indicates that saturated fat is not bad, that refined carbohydrates do harm in so many ways ...
Read up blogs by Dr William Davis, Dr Stephan Guyenet, Dr Kurt Harris, for starters.
Am J Clin Nutr. 2008 Dec;88(6):1716S-1721S.
Straight talk about high-fructose corn syrup: what it is and what it ain't.
White JS.
White Technical Research, Argenta, IL 62501, USA. white.tech.res@gmail.com
Abstract
High-fructose corn syrup (HFCS) is a fructose-glucose liquid sweetener alternative to sucrose (common table sugar) first introduced to the food and beverage industry in the 1970s. It is not meaningfully different in composition or metabolism from other fructose-glucose sweeteners like sucrose, honey, and fruit juice concentrates. HFCS was widely embraced by food formulators, and its use grew between the mid-1970s and mid-1990s, principally as a replacement for sucrose. This was primarily because of its sweetness comparable with that of sucrose, improved stability and functionality, and ease of use. Although HFCS use today is nearly equivalent to sucrose use in the United States, we live in a decidedly sucrose-sweetened world: >90% of the nutritive sweetener used worldwide is sucrose. Here I review the history, composition, availability, and characteristics of HFCS in a factual manner to clarify common misunderstandings that have been a source of confusion to health professionals and the general public alike. In particular, I evaluate the strength of the popular hypothesis that HFCS is uniquely responsible for obesity. Although examples of pure fructose causing metabolic upset at high concentrations abound, especially when fed as the sole carbohydrate source, there is no evidence that the common fructose-glucose sweeteners do the same. Thus, studies using extreme carbohydrate diets may be useful for probing biochemical pathways, but they have no relevance to the human diet or to current consumption. I conclude that the HFCS-obesity hypothesis is supported neither in the United States nor worldwide.
PMID: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19064536" [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
CONCLUSIONS
The hypothesis that HFCS is a unique cause of obesity is not supportable in the United States or elsewhere, and the reasons are clear:
No one would disagree that HFCS as a caloric ingredient can lead to weight gain if products sweetened with it are consumed to excess. After all, the same may be said for all caloric ingredients, such as fats, protein, alcohol, and other carbohydrates. But there is absolutely no proof that HFCS acts in any exclusive manner to promote obesity. It is time to retire the hypothesis that HFCS is uniquely responsible for obesity. (Other articles in this supplement to the Journal include references 34-37.)
- HFCS has the same sugars composition as other "benign" fructose-glucose sweeteners such as sucrose, honey, and fruit juice concentrates and dietary sources such as fruits and juices;
- Increased caloric intake since 1970 was not due to added sugars (including HFCS) but rather was due to increased consumption of all caloric nutrients, especially fats and flour and cereals;
- HFCS is consumed in equal amounts with sucrose in the United States, but at <10% of the amount of sucrose worldwide;
- Fructose-glucose sweeteners are metabolized through the same pathways regardless of dietary source;
- Although pure fructose can cause metabolic upsets at high concentrations and in the absence of glucose, such experiments are irrelevant for HFCS, which is not consumed at extreme high levels and contains both fructose and glucose;
- There is no longer an association between HFCS and obesity in the United States: per capita consumption of HFCS has declined in recent years, whereas obesity rates continue to rise; and
- There is absolutely no association between HFCS use and worldwide obesity; HFCS is really a minor sweetener in the global perspective.
Ok. I post more than 8 links re: vitamin D, the damage of HFCS, sugar and refined carbs, their links to cancer etc ... and what have I got in response ?!Proton Soup said:i've read Davis' heartscanblog. he has some interesting intuition and observations. it was because of him that i switched to vitamin D in oil capsules instead of the calcium tablets. but he is not practicing science, it is the art of medicine. physicians give medical opinions. good observation and intuition may then lead some to do clinical studies, which are science.
and are you really going to bring up the paleo guys? man has been eating carbs for a http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/10/revised-paleolithic-diet/" . some of us with say, european descent, have been drinking milk for so long that we can process it without getting lactose intolerance. that is an evolutionary adaptation beyond paleo. not to mention that we've lost the ability to synthesize vitamin C, which is a pretty good sign that we used to get a lot of carbs from fruit.
Umm... let me see. Did you read the entire article, right upto the end? I'm sure you did not miss thisbut, where were we? oh yeah, pubmed! here, try this one on for size and tell me what you think.
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/88/6/1716S"
ACKNOWLEDGMENTS
The author is a consultant to the food and beverage industry in nutritive sweeteners, including HFCS and sucrose. His professional associations, past and present, include individual food industry companies as well as such organizations as the American Chemical Society, American Council on Science and Health, Calorie Control Council, Corn Refiners Association, Institute of Food Technologists, and International Life Sciences Institute.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19208729Studies in animals have documented that, compared with glucose, dietary fructose induces dyslipidemia and insulin resistance. To assess the relative effects of these dietary sugars during sustained consumption in humans, overweight and obese subjects consumed glucose- or fructose-sweetened beverages providing 25% of energy requirements for 10 weeks. Although both groups exhibited similar weight gain during the intervention, visceral adipose volume was significantly increased only in subjects consuming fructose. Fasting plasma triglyceride concentrations increased by approximately 10% during 10 weeks of glucose consumption but not after fructose consumption. In contrast, hepatic de novo lipogenesis (DNL) and the 23-hour postprandial triglyceride AUC were increased specifically during fructose consumption. Similarly, markers of altered lipid metabolism and lipoprotein remodeling, including fasting apoB, LDL, small dense LDL, oxidized LDL, and postprandial concentrations of remnant-like particle-triglyceride and -cholesterol significantly increased during fructose but not glucose consumption. In addition, fasting plasma glucose and insulin levels increased and insulin sensitivity decreased in subjects consuming fructose but not in those consuming glucose. These data suggest that dietary fructose specifically increases DNL, promotes dyslipidemia, decreases insulin sensitivity, and increases visceral adiposity in overweight/obese adults.
CONCLUSIONS: In obese subjects, consumption of fructose-sweetened beverages with meals was associated with less insulin secretion, blunted diurnal leptin profiles, and increased postprandial TG concentrations compared with glucose consumption. Increases of TGs were augmented in obese subjects with insulin resistance, suggesting that fructose consumption may exacerbate an already adverse metabolic profile present in many obese subjects.
Siv said:Ok. I post more than 8 links re: vitamin D, the damage of HFCS, sugar and refined carbs, their links to cancer etc ... and what have I got in response ?!
Umm... let me see. Did you read the entire article, right upto the end? I'm sure you did not miss this
And this is not the only "study" sponsored by the food industry to try and do damage control to damaging evidence being revealed more and more. And all of them are available free full text
Now here you go re: the real evidence showing how bad HFCS really is.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19064538
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19381015
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19208729
J Clin Invest. 2009 May;119(5):1322-34. doi: 10.1172/JCI37385. Epub 2009 Apr 20.
Consuming fructose-sweetened, not glucose-sweetened, beverages increases visceral adiposity and lipids and decreases insulin sensitivity in overweight/obese humans.
Stanhope KL, Schwarz JM, Keim NL, Griffen SC, Bremer AA, Graham JL, Hatcher B, Cox CL, Dyachenko A, Zhang W, McGahan JP, Seibert A, Krauss RM, Chiu S, Schaefer EJ, Ai M, Otokozawa S, Nakajima K, Nakano T, Beysen C, Hellerstein MK, Berglund L, Havel PJ.
Department of Molecular Biosciences, UCD, Davis, California 95616, USA.
Comment in:
* J Clin Invest. 2009 May;119(5):1089-92.
Abstract
Studies in animals have documented that, compared with glucose, dietary fructose induces dyslipidemia and insulin resistance. To assess the relative effects of these dietary sugars during sustained consumption in humans, overweight and obese subjects consumed glucose- or fructose-sweetened beverages providing 25% of energy requirements for 10 weeks. Although both groups exhibited similar weight gain during the intervention, visceral adipose volume was significantly increased only in subjects consuming fructose. Fasting plasma triglyceride concentrations increased by approximately 10% during 10 weeks of glucose consumption but not after fructose consumption. In contrast, hepatic de novo lipogenesis (DNL) and the 23-hour postprandial triglyceride AUC were increased specifically during fructose consumption. Similarly, markers of altered lipid metabolism and lipoprotein remodeling, including fasting apoB, LDL, small dense LDL, oxidized LDL, and postprandial concentrations of remnant-like particle-triglyceride and -cholesterol significantly increased during fructose but not glucose consumption. In addition, fasting plasma glucose and insulin levels increased and insulin sensitivity decreased in subjects consuming fructose but not in those consuming glucose. These data suggest that dietary fructose specifically increases DNL, promotes dyslipidemia, decreases insulin sensitivity, and increases visceral adiposity in overweight/obese adults.
PMID: 19381015 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Int J Obes (Lond). 2007 Dec;31(12):1786-97. Epub 2007 Jul 17.
A dose-response relation between aerobic exercise and visceral fat reduction: systematic review of clinical trials.
Ohkawara K, Tanaka S, Miyachi M, Ishikawa-Takata K, Tabata I.
Health Promotion and Exercise Program, National Institute of Health and Nutrition, Shinjuku-ku, Tokyo, Japan. ohkawara@nih.go.jp
Erratum in:
* Int J Obes (Lond). 2008 Feb;32(2):395.
Abstract
OBJECTIVE: It has been suggested that exercise has preferential effects on visceral fat reduction. However, the dose-response effect remains unclear because of limited evidence from individual studies. The purpose of this study was to systematically review the current literature to establish whether reduction of visceral fat by aerobic exercise has a dose-response relationship.
METHODS: A database search was performed (PubMed, 1966-2006) with appropriate keywords to identify studies exploring the effects of aerobic exercise as a weight loss intervention on visceral fat reduction. Visceral fat reduction was expressed as the percentage of visceral fat change per week (%DeltaVF/w). The energy expenditure by aerobic exercise was expressed as Sigma (metabolic equivalents x h per week (METs x h/w)).
RESULTS: Nine randomized control trials and seven non-randomized control trials were selected. In most of the studies, the subjects performed aerobic exercise generating 10 METs x h/w or more. Among all the selected groups (582 subjects), visceral fat decreased significantly (P<0.05) in 17 groups during the intervention, but not in the other 4 groups. There was no significant relationship between METs x h/w from aerobic exercise and %DeltaVF/w in all the selected groups. However, when subjects with metabolic-related disorders were not included (425 subjects), METs x h/w from aerobic exercise had a significant relationship with %DeltaVF/w (r=-0.75). Moreover, visceral fat reduction was significantly related to weight reduction during aerobic exercise intervention, although a significant visceral fat reduction may occur without significant weight loss.
CONCLUSION: These results suggest that at least 10 METs x h/w in aerobic exercise, such as brisk walking, light jogging or stationary ergometer usage, is required for visceral fat reduction, and that there is a dose-response relationship between aerobic exercise and visceral fat reduction in obese subjects without metabolic-related disorders.
PMID: 17637702 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
what the hell is this goofy crap? a hypercaloric diet that is 25% fructose? i guess it is true that goofy diets will get you goofy results.
Proton Soup said:what the hell is this goofy crap? a hypercaloric diet that is 25% fructose? i guess it is true that goofy diets will get you goofy results.
hamster143 said:I don't see the word "hypercaloric" in there. It shows that 25% of fructose in a diet have a statistically significant effect of reducing insulin sensitivity (in other words, predisposing the person to type 2 diabetes). A person on a high-carb diet with emphasis on simple carbs can easily exceed 25% and may even exceed 50%. What's goofy about that?
People seem to be on a hiatus against insulin these days. You're body is supposed to have and use insulin. If people would not take the lazy approach to their health (say like eating at Burger King 3 times a day) they wouldn't really need to worry about their insulin levels
hamster143 said:I don't see the word "hypercaloric" in there. It shows that 25% of fructose in a diet have a statistically significant effect of reducing insulin sensitivity (in other words, predisposing the person to type 2 diabetes). A person on a high-carb diet with emphasis on simple carbs can easily exceed 25% and may even exceed 50%. What's goofy about that?
both groups exhibited similar weight gain during the intervention
If you assume what you want to conclude, then it becomes very easy, right ?Proton Soup said:it was right here:
you gain weight by eating more calories than you burn. that would be hypercaloric. if they had lost weight, it would be a hypocaloric diet.
Very true. Even fructose can easily exceed 25%. Easily.hamster143 said:I don't see the word "hypercaloric" in there. It shows that 25% of fructose in a diet have a statistically significant effect of reducing insulin sensitivity (in other words, predisposing the person to type 2 diabetes). A person on a high-carb diet with emphasis on simple carbs can easily exceed 25% and may even exceed 50%. What's goofy about that?
Siv said:Take a typical American diet. 1 pizza, 2 burgers, 5 diet sodas and maybe some processed chips like Lays. Do you know how much HFCS that is ?? Do the math.
Um ... have you read the posts? That sugar and refined carbs are responsible for many of our current diseases/ailments is something that is definitely being discussed.Studiot said:Has anyone in this debate read any of
'The Saccharine Disease' by Cleave
Those are really terrrible articles. They take something that is true (and blindingly obvious) and twist it around to imply - completely incorrectly - that it's false, for the sake of sucking you into reading the article. Time does that all the time and IIRC, they got a huge amount of negative feedback for that article.Siv said:Some more interesting articles.
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1914857,00.html
http://nymag.com/news/sports/38001/
Its surprising how we have accepted so many things as gospel without a shred of evidence.
The recent August 9th 2009 cover story from Time Magazine, "Why Exercise Won't Make You Thin" (Cloud, 2009) may be one of the most poorly researched and misrepresented articles about exercise and fitness. Not only did the author John Cloud misinterpret much of the exercise and health science literature--he has plenty of other articles where his seemingly lack of science and health knowledge is moot--and wrote an article that could potentially damage the public if they follow his misinformed advice, but Time Magazine has been completely irresponsible in publishing this article without seemingly proper fact checking. Cloud begins the article by touting his bitterness towards exercise and finds studies which seem to rationalize his disregard for proper exercise and nutrition. Cloud seems to lack comprehension in science, health, and fitness to accurately convey truthful information. The inaccurate and misleading conclusions he draws may make the metabolic syndrome (obesity, diabetes, heart disease, etc...) epidemic even worse if people believe his story.
Um ... have you read the posts?
Siv said:I am not so sure. Anthropologists who studied tribes untouched by the modern Western fast and processed food disease often did not find evidence for these.
peaking of dentists, anyone read Weston Price's work ? I don't mean the current WAPF, but the original works of Weston Price. Interesting stuff indeed.
Thats not what you asked, specifically about Dr Cleave.Studiot said:That sort of response makes me sorry I bothered to post at all.
Yes I checked electronically and according to my browser ,my post was the first mention of Dr Cleave in this thread.
Siv said:Some more interesting articles.
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1914857,00.html
http://nymag.com/news/sports/38001/
Its surprising how we have accepted so many things as gospel without a shred of evidence.