Rope falling through a hole on a frictionless table

In summary, the rope falls through a hole and maintains a uniform density. Using equations, it is determined that the net force on the part hanging down is λgy - T where T is the tension in the rope. If the table is laid out straight, the net force is the same regardless of the direction of the rope. If the table is in a random heap, the net force is greater when the rope is hanging down than when it is laying on the table.
  • #1
Potatochip911
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Homework Statement


A rope with uniform density ##\lambda=\frac{m}{L}## is placed on a frictionless table with an initial length ##y_0## hanging through the hole. Derive a differential equation for the position of the bottom of the rope and then using this solve for the time required for the rope to leave the table.

Homework Equations


##p=mv##
##F=\frac{dp}{dt}##
##p=\dot{m}v+m\dot{v}##

The Attempt at a Solution



I'm currently stuck with determining which differential equation I've derived is the correct one (although they only differ slightly).

The first method is just by analyzing the motion in the y direction. The acceleration will be given by ##ma=\lambda gy## where ##m## is the mass of the entire rope and ##y## (a function of time) is the length of the rope that's fallen through the hole. We can rewrite ##m## as ##\lambda L## from which we obtain: ##a=\frac{gy}{L}## or written more conveniently $$\ddot{y}-\frac{g}{L}y=0$$

The second method is the way my professor suggested to go about solving it. We consider the forces in both the ##x## and ##y## directions. To do this I considered the mass on the table ##m_T## and the mass falling off the table ##m_F## separately. Defining the ##x## and ##y## axis so the movement on the x and y-axis will be positive, in the x direction we have $$F_x=\frac{dp}{dt}=\dot{m_T}v+m_T\dot{v}\hspace{5mm} \mbox{and} \hspace{5mm} F_y=\dot{m_F}v+m_F\dot{v}$$ Then using the relation ##\dot{m_T}=-\dot{m_F}## we can express the first equation as ##F_x=-\dot{m_T}v+m_T\dot{v}##. Now the same force ##\lambda gy## will act on both of the sections therefore $$F_x+F_y=2\lambda gy=\dot{v}(m_F+m_T)$$ Now using ##m_F=y\lambda## and ##m_T=\lambda(L-y)## we get ##2\lambda gy=\dot{v}\lambda L## which after cancelling terms and changing to a more convenient form: $$\ddot{y}-\frac{2g}{L}y=0$$

I feel like something is definitely off about the second method particularly with how the force is acting on the masses but I just can't see what.
 
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  • #2
Why not stick to the first method? It looks fine to me. The second method is unnecessarily complicated because all parts of the rope accelerate at the same rate whether it is vertical or horizontal. But the force on the rope depends only on the amount of rope hanging down (ie. y).

AM
 
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  • #3
Andrew Mason said:
Why not stick to the first method? It looks fine to me. The second method is unnecessarily complicated because all parts of the rope accelerate at the same rate whether it is vertical or horizontal. But the force on the rope depends only on the amount of rope hanging down (ie. y).

AM

Yea I agree with what you've said I just thought it was weird that it's almost the same equation but not quite.
 
  • #4
Potatochip911 said:
The second method ...Now using ##m_F=y\lambda## and ##m_T=\lambda(L-y)## we get ##2\lambda gy=\dot{v}\lambda L## which after cancelling terms and changing to a more convenient form: $$\ddot{y}-\frac{2g}{L}y=0$$

Potatochip911 said:
Yea I agree with what you've said I just thought it was weird that it's almost the same equation but not quite.
There is only one force on the entire rope and it is λgy. The net force on the part hanging down is λgy - T where T is the tension in the rope.

AM
 
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  • #5
Andrew Mason said:
There is only one force on the entire rope and it is λgy. The net force on the part hanging down is λgy - T where T is the tension in the rope.

AM
Ah thanks that makes sense!
 
  • #6
It is not stated whether the rope on the table is laid out straight or in a random heap. It makes quite a difference.
 
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  • #7
haruspex said:
It is not stated whether the rope on the table is laid out straight or in a random heap. It makes quite a difference.
I suppose I could've included a picture, in this case it is laid out straight on a table.
 
  • #8
Potatochip911 said:
I suppose I could've included a picture, in this case it is laid out straight on a table.
Ok.
 
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FAQ: Rope falling through a hole on a frictionless table

What is the physics behind a rope falling through a hole on a frictionless table?

The rope falling through a hole on a frictionless table is an example of a classic physics problem that demonstrates the concept of conservation of energy. As the rope falls, it loses gravitational potential energy and gains kinetic energy. Once the rope is completely through the hole, it has lost all of its potential energy and gained an equal amount of kinetic energy, resulting in a constant velocity of the rope.

How does the lack of friction affect the rope's motion?

The absence of friction on the table means that there is no force acting to slow down the rope's motion. This allows the rope to continue falling through the hole at a constant velocity without any external forces acting on it.

Does the mass of the rope have an impact on its motion through the hole?

According to the laws of physics, the mass of an object does not affect its acceleration due to gravity. Therefore, the mass of the rope does not impact its motion through the hole. However, the length and thickness of the rope may affect its air resistance and the amount of time it takes to fall through the hole.

What would happen if the table was not frictionless?

If the table had friction, it would act as an external force on the rope, slowing it down as it falls through the hole. This would result in a decrease in the rope's kinetic energy and a corresponding increase in its potential energy. The rope would also experience a twisting motion due to the friction force acting on it.

Is this scenario possible in real life?

In theory, it is possible for the rope falling through a hole on a frictionless table to occur in a real-life scenario. However, in reality, it is difficult to achieve a completely frictionless environment. Even the smoothest surfaces will have some degree of friction, which would affect the rope's motion through the hole. Therefore, this scenario is often used as a theoretical physics problem to demonstrate the concept of conservation of energy.

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