Science with Ghosts OR Religion with Ghosts

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by decibel
i don't quite understand ghosts

Don't jump to the conclusion they are real. Peculiar stuff happens,
but it doesn't necessarily add up to ghosts. The vast majority of things that people see, hear, and smell which are thought to be ghosts are, in fact, undiagnosed simple partial seizures and hallucinations caused by other things.

There are also hoaxes, and extremely odd but perfectly physical phenomena, like what happened to my science teacher.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by Ivan Seeking Zooby's head can still fit in a small coffee cup.

Are you making fun of me because I drink lots of coffee?

 

[chroot]

Originally posted by zoobyshoe
Are you making fun of me because I drink lots of coffee?

I'm no expert, but I think he was making fun of your tiny head.

- Warren

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by chroot
I'm no expert, but I think he was making fun of your tiny head.

- Warren

I see. As long as he wasn't attacking my coffee habit.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by zoobyshoe
Don't jump to the conclusion they are real. Peculiar stuff happens,

There are a number of fringe subjects that I think represent something real, but in no other case can I argue with any certainty beyond that of obscure data and government files, and claims that cannot be proven. In this case, it would take one hell of a lot of convincing to change my mind. This was just as real as my morning cup of coffee. Unfortunately, and this is why I have never told this story to anyone here except my buddy KL Kam: I can't prove it. To you and everyone else, it is just another story. For me however, my worldview was fundamentally changed in about 5 seconds - though it took me a few days to realize this. In fact, it was not my experience but my wife's that convinced me beyond any reasonable doubt.

The other thing that one takes away is an appreciation for other people's stories; of all kinds. I know that mine sounds just like many others; albeit much less dramatic than most. Still, if I hear a story that sounds just like mine, or if I see my feelings of bewildered belief in the face of a person making a strange claim, I now tend to listen very carefully.

The universe is not stranger than we imagine; it is stranger than we can imagine

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by chroot
I'm no expert, but I think he was making fun of your tiny head.

- Warren

He doesn't have a head! He's just a shoe.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by Ivan Seeking
I want the equations that describe the dynamics of ectoplasm...by morning! This begins the field of Ectoplasm Dynamics; which of course requires the technique to be known Chroot Analysis.

Yes, I've always wondered if ectoplasm has a field or if it is a field. Also, can you get it off your hands with acetone? Soap and water didn't work, nor did turpentine. Also, how many flavors?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by zoobyshoe
It explains a couple cryptic things that Tsunami said which meant nothing at the time.

We were dropping hints to you and Zantra...I thought Zantra may have been on to us...we will see.

And this couple smells fishy. If I were a building manager or real estate agent I certainly wouldn't confirm anyone's suspicions of a haunting. The fact they spilled their story at the slightest hint is suspicious to me. People in that position always downplay all negatives. Something very odd about this.

Only in that they were completely into the paranormal...hence her immediate comments about ghosts. They had a large number of books on the subject in their library.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by Ivan Seeking In this case, it would take one hell of a lot of convincing to change my mind. This was just as real as my morning cup of coffee.

Yes, but real what? Unlike my physics teacher you never investigated the bed or the smells beyond asking the caretakers about the ducts. About two months ago I was sitting here at night with my door open and heard the most unearthly groan that seemed to come from just outside the door: a male human groan. The hair on my body stood up such that I felt I must have looked like I just touched a van de Graff generator.
For a moment I was frozen. Then I decided to investigate.

I had a big square fan on the floor in front of the doorway which was running. I touched it, and it was sitting on a pebble, very tippy. I'm pretty sure all that happened was that a freak breeze set it tipping back and forth at a low frequency. This, on top of the fact it was running, must have created the groaning sound.

That isn't to say I calmed right down. It was a good two hours before the edge went away.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by Ivan Seeking
We were dropping hints to you and Zantra...I thought Zantra may have been on to us...we will see.

I didn't suspect a thing.

Only in that they were completely into the paranormal...hence her immediate comments about ghosts. They had a large number of books on the subject in their library.

Oh, this is very, very fishy. I wish you had investigated the bed. As the caretakers they would have had keys to every apartment. And access to the heating system ducts.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

For me it is this simple: Something unseen pushed down on the bed. I am only convinced of the significance of the smell because of the other two key episodes that actually yield a bit of data. What ever it was, it can apply at least 50 Lbs of force over no less than one square foot.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by zoobyshoe
Oh, this is very, very fishy. I wish you had investigated the bed. As the caretakers they would have had keys to every apartment. And access to the heating system ducts.

I really think this is a red herring. They had nothing to gain; nor did this affect our stay in that location in any other way. Nor did we have any further contact with this couple to any significant degree. Also, we had a closed air system completely contained in an closet located along an interior wall. There was no external access. Surely you realize that I did my homework. This was no small episode in our lives.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by Ivan Seeking
I really think this is a red herring. They had nothing to gain

You never know how people get their jollies. I once heard about these two guys who went around for years anonymously flattening farmer's crops.

Also, we had a closed air system completely contained in an closet located along an interior wall. There was no external access.

I misunderstood this part. In the house, here, for instance all rooms are ducted to the furnace, but none to each other. From the furnace you could send any vapors you wanted to the rooms. From the crawlspace above the ceiling, you could selectively inject vapors into one room but not the others, by tapping into that room's duct.

At any rate, it is sometimes impossible to concieve of how a thing could be faked, or that someone would produce such a fake, and yet it turns out they are fakes. Remember the Fox sisters and the Cardiff giant.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by zoobyshoe
You never know how people get their jollies.

If this was anyone's story but mine I would likely agree with you. I just don't see anyway possible to fake a force at a location directly in my sight and within 5 feet. You keep alluding to the smell, the key is the force. There is no way that anyone could have been in that room; but I realize that in the end, to everyone except Tsunami and I, this is just another story. So, I will give up the ghost...so to speak.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by zoobyshoe
It's going to take me a while to get over that.

GOOD

 

[zoobyshoe]

Tsunami masquerading as Ivan now? Who knows what tricks they'll be up to next?

Originally posted by Ivan Seeking If this was anyone's story but mine I would likely agree with you. I just don't see anyway possible to fake a force at a location directly in my sight and within 5 feet.

I haven't a clue either, but I also haven't a clue how David Blaine levitates 5 inches off the ground 5 feet in front of people.

You keep alluding to the smell, the key is the force.

I agree the force is the harder thing to account for.

There is no way that anyone could have been in that room; but I realize that in the end, to everyone except Tsunami and I, this is just another story.

Er...once you put it that way, there is a possibility which is not supernatural, but almost ends up being creepier to consider than an authentic ghost.

People can be hypnotized to subtract things from their perceptions. In other words a person can be hypnotized with the suggestion that they will not be able to see or hear another specific person once a post hypnotic trigger is pulled.

This sometimes happens to people who are hallucinating for one reason or another anyway: instead of seeing things that aren't there they can't see things that are there. It's called a negative hallucination.

I bring it up simply because it is a scientific fact, is repeatable and all that, and therefore stands in front of the notion of an authentic ghost as an explanation.

In suggesting it was some kind of hoax, I wasn't thinking in terms of someone being in the room, but of them having planted some mechanism under the waterbed mattress.

Then, of course, I have to wonder if it wasn't something completely peculiar, but silly, like the webbing that holds the top of the mattress to the bottom being prone to spot contractions when the temperature is just right.

 

[decibel]

i beg to differ, situations like that, cannot be explained that easily

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by decibel
i beg to differ, situations like that, cannot be explained that easily

That's what they said about crop circles.

 

[decibel]

but now ur going from ghosts to aliens

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by decibel
but now ur going from ghosts to aliens

I'm not talking about either one. I'm talking about hoaxes in general, at this point.

Thousands of people got suckered into believing in the Fox sisters, the Cardiff giant, and crop circles, all of which were later revealed to be hoaxes. In each of these cases there were people saying "You can't explain this away that easily." That stance holds no water.

I'm also not trying to explain any of the stories people have told here "away". They're all in the past and no one can investigate any of them. I have no obvious explanation for what Artman and his wife saw, what Ivan and Tsunami experienced, for what happened to Atheistworld's barn door. Therefore I consider all these things "unexplained". It is the only accurate thing anyone can say.

Given the weight on the bed, the smell from nowhere, and the caretaker's story about the woman who died and her "visits" to other tenants it may seem like common sense to conclude ghosts are real. However, it used to be common sense to look at the world around us and come to the obvious conclusion the Earth was flat. It also used to be obvious that the sun revolved around the earth. Sometimes the obvious conclusion turns out to be just plain wrong.

I don't think anyone should read these stories and come to any conclusions about the existence of ghosts that they are loyal to.
The cause of the phenomena reported here is simply unexplained at this point, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Artman]

Originally posted by chroot
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- Warren

I like this Warren, but I really did see it.

I know that there is nothing I can say that will convince you that what my dog sensed and my wife and I saw was a ghost. I don't expect you to believe the story for I can offer no proof. There is no proof. All I can say is that the story happened exactly as I related it. I don't know what ghosts are, but I do know that they exist because I saw one. And I know I saw one because my wife saw it too.

I think I need a biggie size. Do they come with a chin strap?

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by Artman
I know that there is nothing I can say that will convince you that what my dog sensed and my wife and I saw was a ghost. I don't expect you to believe the story for I can offer no proof. There is no proof. All I can say is that the story happened exactly as I related it. I don't know what ghosts are, but I do know that they exist because I saw one. And I know I saw one because my wife saw it too.

Here is what I'm saying: a ghost is the disembodied spirit of a dead person. You are applying this label to what you saw, probably because it fits the common description of a ghost.
In fact, however, no one has proven that humans exist in disembodied form after they die. The very notion of ghosts itself is speculation to try to explain what people are seeing when this sort of thing happens.

It used to be "obvious" that when
a person suddenly fell to the ground and began convulsing, that they had been grabbed (seized) by a spirit, god, or demon. What else could it have been? The attacker was completely invisible!

"Ghosts" have been spotted throughout mankind's history, but what they are is completely unexplained. To assert any unscientifically testable explanation for them and be loyal to it is meaningless jumping to conclusions.