What lessons can we learn from the Charlie Hebdo shooting?

[russ_watters]

When "The Book of Mormon" play came out (by the creators of South Park) which ridiculed Mormons the church bought an advertisement in the playbill. This is how civilized people react to criticism.

It says "You've seen the play, now read the book." I was very impressed by that.

 

[Astronuc]

Apparently - Youngest Suspect in Charlie Hebdo Attack Turns Himself In (?)
https://gma.yahoo.com/12-dead-terrorist-attack-paris-satirical-newspaper-162351662--abc-news-topstories.html

How the Paris Attack on Charlie Hebdo Unfolded
https://gma.yahoo.com/paris-attack-charlie-hebdo-unfolded-210140968--abc-news-topstories.html

In Paris attack, clash on whether to limit press freedom
http://news.yahoo.com/paris-attack-clash-whether-limit-press-freedom-221515060.html

The three individuals represent themselves and intolerant individuals, not the majority of Muslims.

 

[russ_watters]

Under the header, "Thou Shalt Not Apologize for Cartoons:There's a couple dozen cartoons targeting various (mostly) religions:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/01/07/andy-marlette-cartoonist-column/21394565/

 

[Evo]

The three individuals represent themselves and intolerant individuals, not the majority of Muslims.

What actions are the Muslim community taking to stop this? I know there have been people denouncing the atrocities, but I feel that many people know things that could turn these people in before they acted and aren't. I still remember all of the cheering from the Muslims in the streets in the Middle East when the twin Towers were brought down. Just stating fact, not passing judgement.



And the question of how much and how many people know and stay quiet.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/3067562/t/chilling-tale/#.VK4fENLF9JY

We need people in the Muslim community that know or have heard things to report these to authorities if we hope to stop the killings.

 

[Astronuc]

What actions are the Muslim community doing to stop this? I know there have been people denouncing the atrocities, but I feel that many people know things that could turn these people in before they acted and aren't. I still remember all of the cheering from the Muslims in the streets in the Middle East when the twin Towers were brought down. Just stating fact, not passing judgement.

Muslims Around The World Condemn Charlie Hebdo Attack
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/07/muslims-respond-charlie-hebdo_n_6429710.html (of course, it's Huffington Post).

Charlie Hebdo killings condemned by Arab states – but hailed online by extremists
http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...rab-states-jihadi-extremist-sympathisers-isis

Arab League and top Muslim body condemn Paris attack
http://news.yahoo.com/arab-league-top-muslim-body-condemn-paris-attack-150207581.html

There maybe folks who knew in advance, and perhaps there are sympathizers, of Said and Cherif Kouachi. Hopefully, an investigation will explore their network or Al Qaida affiliation.

 

[Evo]

Like I said a lot of lip service, but no one actually doing anything. People know, but no one is turning anyone in. If this is to be stopped, the killers need to know their plots will be turned in, that they will be stopped or caught. I don't think they have that fear right now, just IMO.

A good start would be to repeal the ridiculousness about not posting depictions of muhammad. Telling people that it's ok to do so. I'll believe that they care when they fix the problems. Actually they have no agreement that pictures aren't ok.

The permissibility of depictions of Muhammad, the founder of Islam, has long been a concern in the religion's history. Oral and written descriptions are readily accepted by all traditions of Islam, but there is disagreement about visual depictions.[1][2] The Quran does not explicitly forbid images of Muhammad, but there are a few hadith (supplemental teachings) which have explicitly prohibited Muslims from creating visual depictions of figures.[citation needed]

Most Sunni Muslims believe that visual depictions of all the prophets of Islam should be prohibited[3] and are particularly averse to visual representations of Muhammad.[4] The key concern is that the use of images can encourage idolatry.[5] In Shia Islam, however, images of Muhammad are quite common nowadays, even though Shia scholars historically were against such depictions.[4][6] Still, many Muslims who take a stricter view of the supplemental traditions will sometimes challenge any depiction of Muhammad, including those created and published by non-Muslims.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depictions_of_Muhammad

 

[Astronuc]

Hunt for 2 in French shooting that killed 12; 1 surrenders
http://news.yahoo.com/hunt-2-french-shooting-killed-040725179.html

French brothers Said and Cherif Kouachi, in their early 30s, should be considered armed and dangerous, according to a police bulletin released early Thursday. Mourad Hamyd, 18, surrendered at a police station in Charleville-Mezieres, a small town in France's eastern Champagne region, said Paris prosecutor's spokeswoman Agnes Thibault-Lecuivre. She did not offer details on Hamyd's relationship to the men, but said he turned himself in because he heard his name on the news in connection with the attack.

There is perhaps a network of sympathizers helping the Kouachi brothers, but I think it's up to the intelligence and law enforcement to discover such a network.

One could speculate that there were folks who may have known or should have known what Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols were planning when the blew up the Alfred P. Murrah building in 1995 and killing 168 people and injured over 600. McVeigh struck at the US government because of some perceived wrong. Unfortunately, he killed a lot of innocent people.

I think we need to let the authorities do their work.

 

[Evo]

Hunt for 2 in French shooting that killed 12; 1 surrenders
http://news.yahoo.com/hunt-2-french-shooting-killed-040725179.html
There is perhaps a network of sympathizers helping the Kouachi brothers, but I think it's up to the intelligence and law enforcement to discover such a network.

One could speculate that there were folks who may have known or should have known what Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols were planning when the blew up the Alfred P. Murrah building in 1995 and killing 168 people and injured over 600. McVeigh struck at the US government because of some perceived wrong. Unfortunately, he killed a lot of innocent people.

I think we need to let the authorities do their work.

McVeigh was a recluse, I can't believe you would use him as an example. Seriously? What does he have to do with religious killings? And how, exactly, do you expect the authorities to discover these plans without informers? Psychics?

 

[ShayanJ]

This is really sad, wish I could talk about it.

 

[HossamCFD]

Actually they have no agreement that pictures aren't ok.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depictions_of_Muhammad

There are two different issues here: First, the depictions of Mohamed, or of the prophets in general. As you pointed out there is a disagreement about this. It is very common for Shia muslims to carry pictures of Mohamed and other Quranic prophets. The majority of Sunnis forbid that, but it's not really considered a major sin. There have been few recent films and TV series aired in Sunni majority countries that depict other prophets in the Quran, even though this is clearly forbidden in orthodox Sunni Islam.

The other issue is insulting Mohamed, which I think is what's relevant here. This is much more serious, with a story in the hadith (tradition of Mohamed) suggesting that it's punishable by death.I feel like more and more news outlets should publish the cartoons as a response to this attack.

 

[Bystander]

I feel like more and more news outlets should publish the cartoons as a response to this attack.

I've stated earlier in this thread that I go out of my way to avoid profaning other peoples' religions; this is going excessively out of the way to be offensive. The idiots who shot up Hebdo went excessively out of their way to be offended. There is going to be a thin-skinned lunatic fringe of incompetents in any religious, political, or other social group who simply do not belong at large in this world. Identify them. Isolate them. Ignore them.

 

[HossamCFD]

I've stated earlier in this thread that I go out of my way to avoid profaning other peoples' religions; this is going excessively out of the way to be offensive. The idiots who shot up Hebdo went excessively out of their way to be offended. There is going to be a thin-skinned lunatic fringe of incompetents in any religious, political, or other social group who simply do not belong at large in this world. Identify them. Isolate them. Ignore them.

In general, I agree with you. And I concede that my reaction is largely emotional. But I think it's important to stress the point that religion is not sacred anymore in the west; Islam is only sacred to muslims and they should not expect non-muslims to refrain from poking fun at its symbols. People make fun of Jesus (who is even more holy to christians than Mohamed is to muslims) and Moses all the time and I think it's dangerous to actively avoid making fun of Mohamed, effectively granting muslims a special status in western society.

 

[OmCheeto]

I've stated earlier in this thread that I go out of my way to avoid profaning other peoples' religions; this is going excessively out of the way to be offensive. The idiots who shot up Hebdo went excessively out of their way to be offended. There is going to be a thin-skinned lunatic fringe of incompetents in any religious, political, or other social group who simply do not belong at large in this world. Identify them. Isolate them. Ignore them.

I know many people who go out of their way to be offended, for whatever reason. Fortunately, they are/were not the weapon wielding types. Unfortunately, you can't really tell which kind they are, until after they pull the trigger. So isolating them, which I assume to mean "incarceration", would just overburden our already overburdened prison systems, with a bunch of disgruntled loud mouths.

 

[Bystander]

and I think it's dangerous to actively avoid making fun of Mohamed, effectively granting muslims a special status in western society.

I agree completely. The danger in being as gratuitously reactionary as the lunatic fringe of the world's Islamic population is that the situation can be escalated to the point where that xenophobic lunatic fringe is in a position to enlist sane, civilized Moslems in a holy war against sane, civilized populations from the rest of the world who've been enlisted by their own xenophobic lunatic fringe to eradicate Islam.

 

[Bystander]

So isolating them

You may take that as a paraphrase of the "plausible deniability" embodied in JFK's instructions vis a vis Diem. Whatever it takes.

Edit: ~ 5 min. later. "Overcrowded prisons?" Not that persistent a problem considering the social skills these people possess.

 

[OmCheeto]

In general, I agree with you. And I concede that my reaction is largely emotional. But I think it's important to stress the point that religion is not sacred anymore in the west; Islam is only sacred to muslims and they should not expect non-muslims to refrain from poking fun at its symbols. People make fun of Jesus (who is even more holy to christians than Mohamed is to muslims) and Moses all the time and I think it's dangerous to actively avoid making fun of Mohamed, effectively granting muslims a special status in western society.

Actually, I'm not aware of an incidence of Jesus being made fun of. His followers maybe, but never Jesus.

As wiki states, regarding "The Life of Brian" & Jesus:

However, after an early brainstorming stage, and despite being non-believers, they agreed that Jesus was "definitely a good guy" and found nothing to mock in his actual teachings: "He's not particularly funny, what he's saying isn't mockable, it's very decent stuff..." said Idle later.

And on a, let's get this straight as to what has been going through Om's mind for the last 55 years side-note: The gentleman at my convenience store was a Muslim, so after the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, I asked him if he was crazy too. He said; "No". and he introduced me to Islam. I then read the Quran, and couldn't really find anything mockable.

So I decided, that the prophets were not the problem, but merely their followers.

And as I implied before, the followers of atheism, are just as bad.

 

[HossamCFD]

I agree completely. The danger in being as gratuitously reactionary as the lunatic fringe of the world's Islamic population is that the situation can be escalated to the point where that xenophobic lunatic fringe is in a position to enlist sane, civilized Moslems in a holy war against sane, civilized populations from the rest of the world who've been enlisted by their own xenophobic lunatic fringe to eradicate Islam.

Yes you are right. Doing that in an excessive and a reactionary way will have global repercussions, especially in some muslim majority countries who would largely see it as a targeted attack not as a point about freedom of speech.

 

[256bits]

These Are The Charlie Hebdo Cartoons That Terrorists Thought Were Worth Killing Over
...
Known for its caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad, as well as critical depictions of Catholics, Jews and French politicians, the magazine regularly stirred controversy.
...
If you stir the ****pot, on this planet, be prepared to eat the spoon.

It's a funny thing, but I don't find the cartoons even the least bit funny.

 

[OmCheeto]

It's a funny thing, but I don't find the cartoons even the least bit funny.

It might be a French thing.
You'd think that with the badge I'd just won a few days ago, that I might be an expert in humour. But, like you, I don't get it either.

I worked with people from all over the planet at my last job. 30 years. The best and the worst of them.
My favorite, was an Armenian, born in East Germany, who moved to Moscow for university, and his PhD thesis was: "Humour in Language". (currently a microbiologist, messing around with transgenic mice)

One day, I asked him if I could have a copy, and he said; "Om, It's very much over your head."

Anyways, I've never worked with a French person, to my knowledge.

 

[HossamCFD]

Actually, I'm not aware of an incidence of Jesus being made fun of. His followers maybe, but never Jesus.

As wiki states, regarding "The Life of Brian" & Jesus:

Here's one example I could find
http://www.foxnews.com/transcript/2014/12/10/radio-network-mocking-jesus/
But in general referring to Jesus in talk shows in a less than respectful way doesn't strike me as a rare occurrence.

And on a, let's get this straight as to what has been going through Om's mind for the last 55 years side-note: The gentleman at my convenience store was a Muslim, so after the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, I asked him if he was crazy too. He said; "No". and he introduced me to Islam. I then read the Quran, and couldn't really find anything mockable.

So I decided, that the prophets were not the problem, but merely their followers.

Most of what we (think we) know about Mohamed doesn't come from the Quran (in which Mohamed was only mentioned about 5 times) but rather from the later compiled Hadith tradition. In fact most of Sharia rulings and Islamic doctrine in general is in the Hadith, which is regarded by Sunni muslims as almost as authoritative, but not as holy, as the Quran.

There are LOTS of things in the Hadith that I find...well...objectionable.

And I'd like to add that I wouldn't give the Quran a pass, but that's a different topic for a different day.

And as I implied before, the followers of atheism, are just as bad.

I beg to disagree, but I feel like if I expanded on that I might go massively off topic and anger Evo, so I will leave it at that at this point :)

 

[DrClaude]

It's a funny thing, but I don't find the cartoons even the least bit funny.

I do. And remember that these are political cartoons, not necessarily laugh-out-loud stuff, but more "stick it to those in power" though ridicule.

 

[DrClaude]

Actually, I'm not aware of an incidence of Jesus being made fun of. His followers maybe, but never Jesus.

Really?

Then how about this:

"For Elton John, Jesus was homosexual." Jesus: "With S&M tendencies!"

 

[DrClaude]

Whenever anyone goes off on religion as being the worst of all evils, I point to sports:

Religion doesn't need to involve a belief in a diety. In some cases, sports can be seen as being religious.

 

[Garth]

It's a funny thing, but I don't find the cartoons even the least bit funny.

Garth

 

[nikkkom]

Really?

Then how about this:
View attachment 77427
"For Elton John, Jesus was homosexual." Jesus: "With S&M tendencies!"

That's nothing. Christians did not erupt into a murderous rage even after THIS:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piss_Christ

"Piss Christ is a 1987 photograph by the American artist and photographer Andres Serrano. It depicts a small plastic crucifix submerged in a glass of the artist's urine."

 

[DrClaude]

That's nothing. Christians did not erupt into a murderous rage even after THIS:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piss_Christ

"Piss Christ is a 1987 photograph by the American artist and photographer Andres Serrano. It depicts a small plastic crucifix submerged in a glass of the artist's urine."

We were talking about making fun of Christ. Piss Christ is definitely not intended to be funny.

 

[nikkkom]

We were talking about making fun of Christ. Piss Christ is definitely not intended to be funny.

Yes, I know. I just wanted to point out that there were FAR more insulting depictions of Jesus than "making fun of" Muhammad. A pic of Muhammad immersed in urine, anyone? Deploy your armed forces to police the streets before you publish that one...

 

[Borg]

Suspects located and shots fired.

Police have surrounded a house.

 

[russ_watters]

There is perhaps a network of sympathizers helping the Kouachi brothers, but I think it's up to the intelligence and law enforcement to discover such a network.

One could speculate that there were folks who may have known or should have known what Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols were planning when the blew up the Alfred P. Murrah building in 1995 and killing 168 people and injured over 600...

There was a married couple who assisted (only the husband was prosecuted), but that's it. Otherwise it was a totally self contained and isolated conspiracy. That's what makes it so difficult to find and stop them.

True lone wolves are pretty rare, in my estimation, for radical Islamic terrorists because they are created by the global community of radical Islam. They can be difficult to track for the opposite reason: there are so many. But that just means we need to put in a lot of effort (and we do).

Consider the Boston Marathon bombers. The actual plot was totally self contained and could almost be called "lone wolf". But their radicalization was totally out in the open/public - enough that Russia(!?) warned us twice to pay attention to the family. So they succeeded in part because we weren't quite vigilant enough and in part because the plot itself was isolated.

These guys are being grown because of a global support network -- a culture -- of hate/terrorism. It is a disturbing development in what I thought prior to 9/11 was a world that was growing more civilized.

 

[russ_watters]

I think I understand what you are saying, and fully agree...

What struck me as odd, and took me a while to reconcile, was why I had to ban a pair of evangelical atheists from my Facebook page.
They basically disagreed with the second sentence of the meme, and went to town, in a very freedom of speechy way.

Why didn't you drive to their house and shoot them? Why hasn't anyone else?

And as I implied before, the followers of atheism, are just as bad.

Really? Can you list even one act of terrorism by an atheist?

 

[russ_watters]

It's a funny thing, but I don't find the cartoons even the least bit funny.

Political cartoons aren't necessarily supposed to be funny. I think a lot of people may be misunderstanding this: the cartoons don't exist primarily to poke fun/make people laugh, they are intended to be thoughtful criticism. And that's why they are so bad to radicals: thoughtful criticism in an easy to digest bite is powerful.

Moreover, the criticism (or joke, if it is) is generally not aimed at Mohammed, it is aimed at the terrorists. These terrorists, I think, aren't mad that we are criticising islam, but rather because we are criticizing them.

 

[russ_watters]

We were talking about making fun of Christ. Piss Christ is definitely not intended to be funny.

You don't think pointlessly insulting is worse than funny/ironic to make a point?

I will say though that some of the French cartoons don't have a point that I can see. Perhaps the language barrier is getting in the way, but some just look intentionally provocative to get attention (not unlike "Piss Christ").

 

[nikkkom]

A post of someone who said that "we" (I guess it meant the West) are also terrorists was just deleted.
I'm not sure simply deleting posts of people who disagree with us is the best method. Moderators have powers to make people open other threads to prevent derailing threads, or to ask people to be less demagogic / trolls. If they fail to conduct a meaningful discussion after a warning, then by all means, deleting is okay.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

A post of someone who said that "we" (I guess it meant the West) are also terrorists was just deleted.
I'm not sure simply deleting posts of people who disagree with us is the best method. Moderators have powers to make people open other threads to prevent derailing threads, or to ask people to be less demagogic / trolls. If they fail to conduct a meaningful discussion after a warning, then by all means, deleting is okay.

That is the case, carry on

 

[Lisa!]

I was shocked when I heard it first!
Shame on ISIS and their supporters if you know who I meant by them