Shouldn't they use carbon dioxide monitors?

[PainterGuy]

Hi,

In many places in the US the carbon monoxide monitors are mandatory to be installed inside residential places.

1) WHAT IS CARBON MONOXIDE (CO)?
Carbon Monoxide is a colorless, odorless and tasteless poison gas that can be fatal when inhaled.

It is sometimes called the "silent killer."

CO inhibits the blood's capacity to carry oxygen.

CO can be produced when burning fuels such as gasoline, propane, natural gas, oil or wood.

CO is the product of incomplete combustion. If you have fire, you have CO.

2) WHERE DOES CARBON MONOXIDE (CO) COME FROM?
Any fuel-burning appliance that is malfunctioning or improperly installed.

Furnaces, gas range/stove, gas clothes dryer, water heater, portable fuel-burning space heaters, fireplaces, generators and wood burning stoves.

Vehicles, generators and other combustion engines running in an attached garage.

Blocked chimney or flue.

Cracked or loose furnace exchanger.

Back drafting and changes in air pressure.

Operating a grill in an enclosed space.

3) WHAT ARE CARBON MONOXIDE (CO) POISONING SYMPTOMS?
Initial symptoms are similar to the flu without a fever and can include dizziness, severe headaches, nausea, sleepiness, fatigue/weakness and disorientation/confusion.

Source: www.kidde.com/home-safety/en/us/co-safety/carbon-monoxide-alarm-faqs/

Carbon monoxide (CO) is a gas that can kill you quickly. It is called the “silent killer” because it is colorless, odorless, tasteless and nonirritating. If the early signs of CO poisoning are ignored, a person may lose consciousness and be unable to escape the danger. More people die from carbon monoxide exposure than any other kind of poisoning.

Source: https://www.health.ny.gov/publications/2826.pdf

Every year, at least 430 people die in the U.S. from accidental CO poisoning. Approximately 50,000 people in the U.S. visit the emergency department each year due to accidental CO poisoning.

Source: https://www.cdc.gov/dotw/carbonmonoxide/index.htmlQuestion:
It's quite clear that why the use of carbon monoxide monitors is important for safe living. But I don't think that the use of carbon dioxide is common and/or mandatory. A carbon dioxide monitor could provide information about how well a certain place is being ventilated such as work places, retail places, and even residential places. If a certain place is not well ventilated, I'd say it could cause more airborne diseases.

If some place is not properly ventilated and it has an electric stove continuously running on, it can increase the level of carbon dioxide concentration which could be lethal.

Exposure to CO2 can produce a variety of health effects. These may include headaches, dizziness, restlessness, a tingling or pins or needles feeling, difficulty breathing, sweating, tiredness, increased heart rate, elevated blood pressure, coma, asphyxia, and convulsions.

Source: https://www.dhs.wisconsin.gov/chemical/carbondioxide.htm

Carbon dioxide does not only cause asphyxiation by hypoxia but also acts as a toxicant. At high concentrations, it has been showed to cause unconsciousness almost instantaneously and respiratory arrest within 1 min.

Source: Carbon dioxide poisoning: a literature review of an often forgotten cause of intoxication in the emergency department, https://d-nb.info/1130481395/34Helpful links:
1: https://learn.kaiterra.com/en/air-academy/is-carbon-dioxide-harmful-to-people
2: https://www.dhs.wisconsin.gov/chemical/carbondioxide.htm
3: https://health.uconn.edu/poison-con...n-monoxide/carbon-monoxide-the-silent-killer/
4: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_monoxide_poisoning

 

[Borek]

No symptoms related to the monoxide presence/poisoning, but you will easily detect elevated CO₂ (increased breathing rate, dyspnea) and you will almost immediately know there is something wrong with the air.

 

[PainterGuy]

No symptoms related to the monoxide presence/poisoning, but you will easily detect elevated CO₂ (increased breathing rate, dyspnea) and you will almost immediately know there is something wrong with the air.

Thanks! What if one is sleeping?

 

[Borek]

Thanks! What if one is sleeping?

As far as I know you will wake up. We are wired to react to elevated CO₂, as it is part of our physiology since evolution introduced oxygen pathways into cellular respiration. We have no mechanisms for CO, so it kills silently, without any warnings.

 

[PainterGuy]

As far as I know you will wake up. We are wired to react to elevated CO2, as it is part of our physiology

I'm sorry to ask this but are you sure about it? Here is an interesting read: https://www.puc.pa.gov/transport/gassafe/pdf/Gas_Safety_Seminar_2016-PPT-CarbonDioxide.pdf

 

[russ_watters]

It's quite clear that why the use of carbon monoxide monitors is important for safe living. But I don't think that the use of carbon dioxide is common and/or mandatory. A carbon dioxide monitor could provide information about how well a certain place is being ventilated such as work places, retail places, and even residential places. If a certain place is not well ventilated, I'd say it could cause more airborne diseases.

If some place is not properly ventilated and it has an electric stove continuously running on, it can increase the level of carbon dioxide concentration which could be lethal.

These things are already fully accounted for in building codes. There is a certain amount of ventilation required by building occupancy. Since occupancy can vary, CO2 sensors are encouraged for enabling a reduction in ventilation to save energy during periods of low occupancy*.

Open combustion in buildings has limits too. I've done some of my own testing with this and you can indeed exceed exposure limits with unusually large combustion in a small house with the windows closed. Though the limits are somewhat varied (edit: by that I mean, depending on the authority you ask and the duration of exposure).

ASHRAE Standard 62.1 is the basis for many building codes such as the International Mechanical Code and US state codes.

*[edit] For obvious reasons CO2 measurement is a good proxy for occupancy, but CO2 isn't the only reason for ventilation.

 

[PainterGuy]

This is regarding post #5 above.

Is carbon dioxide a 'silent killer'? Will you wake up if carbon dioxide concentration becomes too high?

 

[Drakkith]

A few things:

CO is life threatening within 3 hours starting at around 400 PPM, while CO₂ requires upwards of 40,000+ PPM, a 100-fold increase.

CO bound in the blood has a half-life of 300 minutes, so victims can die or suffer permanent damage hours after exposure. The half-life can be reduced to 90 minutes by administering pure oxygen, and 30 minutes by treating patients in hyperbaric chambers. CO₂ poisoning, in the absence of underlying health problems, starts to resolve as soon as normal air or supplemental oxygen is administered.

CO not only prevents oxygen from being acquired and transported by the blood by virtue of binding with hemoglobin, it also forms toxic compounds in the bloodstream, inhibits various cellular functions, and decreases the bodies ability to get rid of waste CO₂, further increasing the strain on the body. CO₂ is much less toxic.

Hyperbaric chambers are relatively rare, complicating the treatment of severe CO poisoning since it might take an hour or more to get a patient to the nearest chamber. Hand ventilators and supplemental oxygen are essentially standard issue to all ambulances and some other first responders, so effective CO₂ poisoning treatment begins immediately in almost all cases.

Because of the much higher concentrations of CO₂ that are required, along with needing a well sealed room, it is actually quite difficult to get CO₂ poisoning in your daily life. The higher the concentration of a gas in a room, the faster that gas will diffuse outside, making high concentrations far more difficult to obtain than small. Common sources of CO₂, like gas furnaces and heaters, don't typically release enough CO₂ to allow for a sufficient buildup. The 100x lower concentration of CO required to kill someone is MUCH easier to generate.

What's far more common is a heater or furnace that has a partially blocked intake, reducing the oxygen available for combustion. The reduced oxygen causes an incomplete combustion of the fuel, which is what generates CO in the first place.

 

[Vanadium 50]

A carbon dioxide monitor could provide information about how well a certain place is being ventilated such as work places, retail places

Um...how many people die each year from suffocation in retail places?

CO is about 2000x as dangerous as CO2. Should we take that into account with detection and mitigation?

 

[PainterGuy]

If some place is not properly ventilated and it has an electric stove continuously running on, it can increase the level of carbon dioxide concentration which could be lethal.

Um...how many people die each year from suffocation in retail places?

Humans generate carbon dioxide. In some Asian countries far more people die as result of CO poisoning in winter months. When I was writing the post, I was thinking of a scenario where five or more people are sleeping in a small non-ventilated room with a furnace running on. It will increase the concentration of carbon dioxide in the room even if no CO is generated when they are using an electric furnace.

 

[Drakkith]

Humans generate carbon dioxide. In some Asian countries far more people die as result of CO poisoning in winter months. When I was writing the post, I was thinking of a scenario where five or more people are sleeping in a small non-ventilated room with a furnace running on. It will increase the concentration of carbon dioxide in the room even if no CO is generated when they are using an electric furnace.

There are virtually no non-ventilated rooms in peoples homes. All homes have some level of ventilation, intended or not, and it would be quite difficult for even 5 people to asphyxiate themselves while asleep in the absence of other CO₂ sources.

 

[PainterGuy]

There are virtually no non-ventilated rooms in peoples homes. All homes have some level of ventilation, intended or not, and it would be quite difficult for even 5 people to asphyxiate themselves while asleep in the absence of other CO₂ sources.

Agreed! But I think to monitor carbon dioxide levels and proper ventilation CO2 monitors could be installed in some places such as basements.

Thank you, everyone, for the help!

 

[Vanadium 50]

Why?

For CO2 to be dangerous, you need to increase its concentration by two orders of magnitude. Houses aren't that hermetic.

Why should we devote resources to a hazard that kills few or no people? Wouldn't, e.g. mosquito netting make more sense?

 

[PainterGuy]

Why?

For CO2 to be dangerous, you need to increase its concentration by two orders of magnitude. Houses aren't that hermetic.

Why should we devotes resources to a hazard that kills few or no people? Wouldn't, e.g. mosquito netting make more sense?

Thank you!

I understand it now. CO2 monitor isn't really needed.

 

[pinball1970]

Thank you!

I understand it now. CO2 monitor isn't really needed.

A new iphone? CO not CO2

https://www.ncertpoint.com/2022/01/can-an-iphone-detect-carbon-monoxide.html

 

[russ_watters]

Why?

For CO2 to be dangerous, you need to increase its concentration by two orders of magnitude. Houses aren't that hermetic.

Why should we devotes resources to a hazard that kills few or no people? Wouldn't, e.g. mosquito netting make more sense?

I understand it now. CO2 monitor isn't really needed.

Let me caveat that a bit:

1. Death is not the only risk.
2. In order for CO to be generated at all, CO2 must first or also be generated in several orders of magnitude higher volume.

As I said above, CO2 sensors and active ventilation control are very common in commercial buildings because code/standard allowable limits on CO2 is only 1,000 ppm (or 500 ppm above ambient) and can, in fact, be reached with just people breathing in a poorly ventilated building. Studies have shown COGNITIVE IMPAIRMENT at levels as low as 1,400 ppm.

So a CO2 monitor could provide early warning for CO exposure risk in addition to the less severe health risks of low-level CO2 exposure. It's just that CO detectors are cheap, so if that's the concern there is no real downside to just detecting it directly. CO2 exposure risk is a much more complicated (but pervasive) animal and the type of person to run a kerosene heater in their living room isn't likely to be looking out for either.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I would describe these less as CO2 detectors and more as CO detectors that work on the principle of CO2 detection.

As an anology, VESDA works not because light scattering is dangerous: it works because light scattering over a particular particle size range might be indicative of a fire. (And usually isn't)