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Ali Asadullah
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Is it a right mathematical operation (a*b)^0.5 = a^0.5 *b^0.5 when a and b either both are negative or one of them is negative.
If a >= 0 and b >=0, [tex]\sqrt{ab} = \sqrt{a}\sqrt{b}[/tex]Ali Asadullah said:Is it a right mathematical operation (a*b)^0.5 = a^0.5 *b^0.5 when a and b either both are negative or one of them is negative.
No, that's not true at all.Xitami said:If a <= 0 and b <=0, [tex]\sqrt{ab} = -\sqrt{a}\sqrt{b}[/tex]
Mentallic said:And finally for the last case, a<0 b[itex]\geq[/itex]0
[tex]\sqrt{ab}=\sqrt{-a}\sqrt{b}=i\sqrt{a}\sqrt{b}[/tex]
Char. Limit said:Actually, if only one of a and b are positive, we don't know if the answer is multiplied by i or by -i, I believe. That non-property is used to show the fallacy in a certain 1=2 argument.
Martin Rattigan said:Mark44: [itex]\sqrt{(-2)(-8)}=\sqrt{2}\sqrt{8}[/itex] (true) [itex]=(\sqrt{-2}\sqrt{-8})/i^2=-\sqrt{-2}\sqrt{-8}[/itex] (as in Xitami's formula)
Martin Rattigan said:Or setting [itex]b=1,\sqrt{a}\neq 0[/itex]:
Mentallic: [itex]1=i[/itex]
Char Limit: [itex]1=\pm i[/itex]
Mentallic said:I'll have some fun here to try and explain where Martin's second expression could've arisen from.
Mentallic said:I'm not sure what you're getting at here. We were assuming a<0 so [itex]\sqrt{a}\neq 0[/itex] is a given.
The "some reason" is that you switched from [ tex] tags to [ itex] tags.Martin Rattigan said:If by second expression you mean [itex]\sqrt{2}\sqrt{8}[/itex] it was copied from Mark44's post (as was the first expression [itex]\sqrt{(-2)(-8)}[/itex], but for some reason itex doesn't extend the square root sign - it should have read [itex]\sqrt{(-2)(-8)}[/itex]).
Martin Rattigan said:The third expression comes from [itex]\sqrt{-2}=i\sqrt{2},\sqrt{-8}=i\sqrt{8}[/itex] and substitution in the second expression.
The fourth expression comes from replacing [itex]i^2[/itex] by [itex]-1[/itex] and looks very much like what Xitami said and Mark44's post is claiming to be wrong.
What I'm getting at is you're claiming [itex]\sqrt{ab}=i\sqrt{a}\sqrt{b}[/itex] when [itex]a<0,b\geq 0[/itex]. Substituing [itex]b=1[/itex] (which is [itex]\geq 0[/itex]) gives, for [itex]a<0[/itex]
[itex]\sqrt{a.1}=i\sqrt{a}\sqrt{1}[/itex]
or [itex]\sqrt{a}=i\sqrt{a}[/itex]
and after division by [itex]\sqrt{a}[/itex] which is possible because, as you point out [itex]a<0[/itex] therefore [itex]\sqrt{a}\neq 0[/itex]
[itex]1=i[/itex]
Martin Rattigan said:What I'm getting at is you're claiming [itex]\sqrt{ab}=i\sqrt{a}\sqrt{b}[/itex] when [itex]a<0,b\geq 0[/itex]. Substituing [itex]b=1[/itex] (which is [itex]\geq 0[/itex]) gives, for [itex]a<0[/itex]
[itex]\sqrt{a.1}=i\sqrt{a}\sqrt{1}[/itex]
or [itex]\sqrt{a}=i\sqrt{a}[/itex]
and after division by [itex]\sqrt{a}[/itex] which is possible because, as you point out [itex]a<0[/itex] therefore [itex]\sqrt{a}\neq 0[/itex]
[itex]1=i[/itex]
Mentallic said:And finally for the last case, a<0 b[itex]\geq[/itex]0
[tex]\sqrt{ab}=\sqrt{-a}\sqrt{b}=i\sqrt{a}\sqrt{b}[/tex]
Mentallic said:but for a<0, [tex]\sqrt{a}=i\sqrt{-a}[/tex]
Mark44 said:The "some reason" is that you switched from [ tex] tags to [ itex] tags.
Mark44 said:I think we have succeeded in going well beyond what the OP asked, and might have further confused him/her with a lot of extraneous information. I hope we are done here.
Char. Limit said:I think that what we have here is notation error...
How about this then?
For positive real a and b...
[tex]\sqrt{(-a)(b)}=\sqrt{-a}\sqrt{b}=i\sqrt{ab}[/tex]
Of course, a similar argument cannot be done for -a and -b because the square root function can't be "split" with two negative radicands. No, it can't.
Ali Asadullah said:Is it a right mathematical operation (a*b)^0.5 = a^0.5 *b^0.5 when a and b either both are negative or one of them is negative.
Wikipedia on the Square Root Function said:Note that because of the discontinuous nature of the square root function in the complex plane, the law √zw = √z√w is in general not true. (Equivalently, the problem occurs because of the freedom in the choice of branch. The chosen branch may or may not yield the equality; in fact, the choice of branch for the square root need not contain the value of √z√w at all, leading to the equality's failure. A similar problem appears with the complex logarithm and the relation log z + log w = log(zw).) Wrongly assuming this law underlies several faulty "proofs", for instance the following one showing that −1*=*1:
Ali Asadullah said:... when a and b either both are negative or one of them is negative.
Char. Limit said:... For positive real a and b...
Char. Limit said:No, if a and b are both negative, than the result is invalid.
Char. Limit said:I mean your result.
[tex]\sqrt{(-2)(-8)}=\sqrt{16}=4[/tex]
I only used multiplication and the square root of a positive number. If a and b are negative, the answer is a real, positive number, and your result is invalid.
Martin Rattigan said:... Mark44: [itex]\sqrt{(-2)(-8)}=\sqrt{2}\sqrt{8}[/itex] (true) [itex]=(\sqrt{-2}\sqrt{-8})/i^2=-\sqrt{-2}\sqrt{-8}[/itex] (as in Xitami's formula)
Char. Limit said:Assuming we don't take the principal root (always possible)...
[tex]\sqrt{(-2)(-8)}=\sqrt{16}=4 , -4[/tex]
Which is multivalued.
Martin Rattigan said:[itex]=\sqrt{-1}\sqrt{-1}=-\sqrt{-1\times -1}[/itex]
wikipedia said:(Equivalently, the problem occurs because of the freedom in the choice of branch.
Char. Limit said:Ok, then tell me why every single calculator I've used on this iPod (six at last count) gave me real and positive numbers for every square root of the product of two negative numbers that I put in? According to you, those numbers should be negative. Also, shouldn't math be consistent? So why can't I multiply the numbers in the radicand to produce a positive product, when I can with ANY other number under that root sign? In other words, why does multiplying the numbers in the radicand and then taking the square root (all allowed formal operations) produce a positive number, but your method produces a negative number?
jackmell said:. . . what a quagmire. Roots are multi-valued. [itex]\sqrt{1}=\pm 1[/itex]. ...
Mentallic said:How did you come up with this?
Mentallic said:The way I see it, and why I agree with Char.Limit is that [tex]\sqrt{-1}\sqrt{-1}=\sqrt{(-1)(-1)}[/tex] from [tex]\sqrt{a}\sqrt{b}=\sqrt{ab}[/tex]
Mentallic said:The problem arises from the order the process is undertaken. Repeating what wikipedia said that Char.Limit posted,
[tex]1=\sqrt{1}=\sqrt{(-1)(-1)}=\sqrt{-1}\sqrt{-1}=i^2=-1[/tex]
This thread seems to have diverged from the context in which the OP asked his question, which I believe was the context of the square root function defined on the reals, and not as a function defined on complex numbers, with branches and all that.jackmell said:. . . what a quagmire. Roots are multi-valued. [itex]\sqrt{1}=\pm 1[/itex]. And if you carry this multivalued notion throughout the process, then [itex]\sqrt{ab}=\sqrt{a}\sqrt{b}[/itex] for any values of a and b.
I have never seen a single textbook that made a claim similar to the above. Can you name a textbook that does so?jackmell said:For example,
[itex]\sqrt{(-2)(4)}=\sqrt{-2}\sqrt{4}=\sqrt{-1}\sqrt{2}\sqrt{4}=\pm i 2\sqrt{2}[/itex][itex]\sqrt{(-2)(-4)}=\sqrt{-2}\sqrt{-4}=\sqrt{-1}\sqrt{2}\sqrt{-1}\sqrt{4}=\pm i 2(\pm i)\sqrt{2}=\pm 2\sqrt{2}[/itex]
even:
[itex]\sqrt{(2)(4)}=\sqrt{2}\sqrt{4}=(\pm 2)(\pm \sqrt{2})=\pm 2\sqrt{2}[/itex]
Cube roots and odd roots in general are different from even roots such as the square root. The principal cube root of any real number is a real number. Same for 5th, 7th, and higher odd roots.jackmell said:you've really got to get a handle on this concept because this is just the lowly square root with just two values. What happens when we up the root or consider the log function or inverse trig functions which are really infinitely-valued (in the complex sense)? For example, can I:
[itex]\sqrt[3]{(-4)(2)}=\sqrt[3]{-4}\sqrt[3]{2}[/itex]?
and just carry-over the multiple-valued [itex]\sqrt[3]{-1}[/itex] throughout the steps and write:
[itex]\sqrt[3]{(-4)(2)}=\sqrt[3]{-4}\sqrt[3]{2}=\sqrt[3]{-1}\sqrt[3]{4}\sqrt[3]{2}[/itex]
The principal cube root of -1 is -1. There are two other cube roots of -1, but they are complex. Similarly, the principal cube root of 2 is a positive real number, as is the principal cube root of 4. The other two cube roots of these numbers or not negative, as I infer from what you wrote: they are complex.jackmell said:with the understanding that we interpret the cube-root of -1 as actually three values and [itex]\sqrt[3]{2}[/itex] and [itex]\sqrt[3]{4}[/itex] as the positive cube-roots.
You have said this several times, but given that your responses make up about a third of the ones in this thread, it would be helpful if you specified which post you are referring to.Martin_Rattigan said:I would ask you again to read my answer carefully.
Ali Asadullah said:Is it a right mathematical operation (a*b)^0.5 = a^0.5 *b^0.5 when a and b either both are negative or one of them is negative.
Martin Rattigan said:For real [itex]a[/itex] and [itex]b[/itex], [itex](ab)^{0.5}=a^{0.5}b^{0.5}[/itex] unless both [itex]a[/itex] and [itex]b[/itex] are negative, in which case [itex](ab)^{0.5}=-a^{0.5}b^{0.5}[/itex].
Mark44 said:You have said this several times, but given that your responses make up about a third of the ones in this thread, it would be helpful if you specified which post you are referring to.
Char. Limit said:Not to mention the simple fact that to get your answer, Martin, you are using the property [itex]\sqrt{ab}=\sqrt{a}\sqrt{b}[/itex] for negative a and b, where it doesn't apply.
Char. Limit said:Let's assume positive a and b, because the notation gets confusing otherwise (with -a being positive and all that, too confusing).
Char. Limit said:Here, as I see it, is your reasoning.
[tex]\sqrt{(-a)(-b)}=\sqrt{-a}\sqrt{-b}=i\sqrt{a}i\sqrt{b}=i^2\sqrt{ab}=-\sqrt{ab}[/tex]
The problem is in the first step, where you wrongly apply the distributive property of square roots where it doesn't belong.
Martin Rattigan said:No, that is not my reasoning. As you point out the first step is incorrect, but it's not my step.
Martin Rattigan said:[itex]\sqrt{-1}\sqrt{-1}=-\sqrt{-1\times -1}[/itex]