Sincerely seeking graduate school admission advice

[Ricodouga]

Hello everyone,

I graduated with a B.S in physics 3 years ago, and I plan on preparing to apply for graduate school. I would love to hear any advice or comments from you.

I had a difficult time in my undergraduate so my grades were terrible, slightly above 2. I took a job as a software engineer at a research hospital, intending to gain money, work experience, and the opportunity of research-related tasks which I thought would help with my future graduate school application. Below is my resume for my position.



For the letter of recommendation, I am planning on asking the two medical physicists and my manager who I have worked closely with. I am currently reviewing all the coursework I have done and doing practice problems for each section to prepare myself. I believe the years of break and work experience have made me ready for grad school, and I feel I am not the same as I was in my undergraduate time when I was struggling.

My questions are the following:

1. Given my situation, should I apply for a master's or PhD program?
2. Ideally I would like to keep my full-time job while attending grad school, which my manager did, but I am willing to quit my position to pursue a degree full-time. How likely is this to happen?
3. I saw GRE Physics are not required anymore for many schools, should I still prepare for the test and take one? What about GRE?
4. Is there any other preparation I can do?

I would like to be successful in pursuing a graduate degree. Thank you so much for finishing reading my post and I appreciate any feedback and comments.

 

[gleem]

I assume you will be applying to a medical physics program, correct? Competence in physics is still the norm AFIK so your UG grades at this time are your largest barrier for acceptance. Right now you are fully ensconced in an IT career. Your SW experience (resume) is of little value at this point. Because of your low UG grades, I think you need to take the PGRE to demonstrate your competence. As a former medical physicist, I see little hope. If for some fortunate change of circumstance, you become a viable applicant I would recommend an MS program if you want to be a clinical physicist. It will be quicker. The PhD would be necessary for research aspirations. You have a steep hill to climb.

 

[Ricodouga]

I assume you will be applying to a medical physics program, correct? Competence in physics is still the norm AFIK so your UG grades at this time are your largest barrier for acceptance. Right now you are fully ensconced in an IT career. Your SW experience (resume) is of little value at this point. Because of your low UG grades, I think you need to take the PGRE to demonstrate your competence. As a former medical physicist, I see little hope. If for some fortunate change of circumstance, you become a viable applicant I would recommend an MS program if you want to be a clinical physicist. It will be quicker. The PhD would be necessary for research aspirations. You have a steep hill to climb.

Thank you, I intend to apply to a general physics program. It sounds like my low UG grades are detrimental. I will try to prepare for the PGRE test.

May I ask if my work experience really holds no value? I thought working with medical physicists, developing software for linear accelerators, knowing image processing, and having completed tasks that deal with radiation would at least be considered.

 

[gleem]

May I ask if my work experience really holds no value? I thought working with medical physicists, developing software for linear accelerators, knowing image processing, and having completed tasks that deal with radiation would at least be considered.

It probably would be used only as a tiebreaker and that is only if there is some value to the department. Physics and math grades are the first consideration. I think most programs will not look further than your transcripts.

 

[Vanadium 50]

May I ask if my work experience really holds no value?

No value? As in zero? No, there is some value. But probably not enough to overcome your GPA and lack of letters from your undergraduate professors.

 

[Choppy]

The biggest hurdle you have is this:

I had a difficult time in my undergraduate so my grades were terrible, slightly above 2.

In most graduate programs the schools will have a minimum undergraduate GPA threshold of 3.0. If you don't exceed that, your application likely won't even be considered by an admissions committee. Work experience won't balance this out. Really the best thing you can do if this is a path you'd really like to pursue, is figure out how to raise that GPA. Generally, that's going to require more time in undergraduate courses.

 

[Ricodouga]

Really the best thing you can do if this is a path you'd really like to pursue, is figure out how to raise that GPA. Generally, that's going to require more time in undergraduate courses.

Do you mind elaborating on the process or raising the GPA? Does this mean re-enrolling in an undergraduate program?

I understand a good PGRE score will help me mitigate my low GPA. Is there anything else suitable I can do to increase my chances?

 

[MidgetDwarf]

Do you mind elaborating on the process or raising the GPA? Does this mean re-enrolling in an undergraduate program?

I understand a good PGRE score will help me mitigate my low GPA. Is there anything else suitable I can do to increase my chances?

One way to raise GPA in the US, is to enroll as an Open University student and taking a few classes. From your resume, you graduated from a school in Los Angeles. Are you still in Los Angeles, or even California?

The most logical path, if you are in California, is to apply for an MS program in physics to one of the Calstates and do well. They are cheap compared to other programs, and its 2 yrs. Maybe 3 if you plan to also work.

but the GPA issue would probally deny you entrance into an MS at even the lower calstates.
If this occurs, go the open university route at one of the calstates. Get As, then reapply. They accept 8 units of transfer credit, so its not a complete waste.

 

[Ricodouga]

One way to raise GPA in the US, is to enroll as an Open University student and taking a few classes. From your resume, you graduated from a school in Los Angeles. Are you still in Los Angeles, or even California?

The most logical path, if you are in California, is to apply for an MS program in physics to one of the Calstates and do well. They are cheap compared to other programs, and its 2 yrs. Maybe 3 if you plan to also work.

but the GPA issue would probally deny you entrance into an MS at even the lower calstates.
If this occurs, go the open university route at one of the calstates. Get As, then reapply. They accept 8 units of transfer credit, so its not a complete waste.

Thank you, I have since moved to TN for my job. I appreciate your detailed instructions on the things I can do.

It seems I should focus on scoring well on PGRE, applying for an MS program, and obtaining good performance, then applying for a PhD program. I will start working on those. Thank you all for your feedback.

 

[Choppy]

Do you mind elaborating on the process or raising the GPA? Does this mean re-enrolling in an undergraduate program?

Pretty much.

Some people can get away with enrolling in a couple of open courses, but the threshold for consideration is 3.0 and you're at "slightly above 2." So even if you do another full degree and score a 4.0 in every course, that's only going to make your overall GPA slightly above 3. The only potential saving grace here is that many schools will weight the GPA toward the most recent years. Read the fine print for each of the schools that you're interested in and learn how they do the calculation specifically.

It's also important to remember that admission is a competitive process. Each school will have N positions and M applicants and in most cases M >> N. So the students with the near 4.0 GPAs are offered admission first and they work their way down.

There are other factors that come into play of course... research experience, letters of reference, external scholarships, PGRE scores, etc. but in my experience there tends to be a high correlation in these - those students with the high GPAs also tend to score well on the standardized exams, and get the most glowing reference letters.

I understand a good PGRE score will help me mitigate my low GPA. Is there anything else suitable I can do to increase my chances?

You can take it, but don't expect miracles. It doesn't replace the GPA.

 

[Frabjous]

Is your research hospital tied to a university? If so, can you take courses there? If so try retaking jr./sr. level classical mechanics, e&m, qm and statmech. If you cannot do well in them, you will not succeed in grad school. If you do well, you will have demonstrated some potential.

I am not saying that this will be enough.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I'm sure I will have people complain that I am a big old meanie, but I think you need to take a long, hard look at where you are and where you want to go.

• In grad school, a C is failing. By their standards, you have an F average. ("No, it's an F-plus!") And grad classes are harder than undergrad. It's not a question - you have demonstrated that you cannot handle the work, and it will take a lot of effort and a long term track record to undemonstrate it.
• You will have no letters from your undergraduate days. The committee will conclude, perhaps wrongly, perhaps not, that nobody was willing to write them.
• A lot of people say "I'll just ace the PGRE!". Not as many do. You should take a practice test right now and see where you stand. It won't be enough to get a "pretty good" score, because the schools will still look at your F average. It needs to be stellar, and even at stellar, a lot of places will not want to take the risk with an F average.
• How do you intend to pay for this? A fellowship? With an F average? A teaching assistantship? Again, with that average? A research assistantship? With no research experience at all? Your best hope is self-pay, and that's not cheap.
• You have no research experience and want a research degree? How does the committee know you won't decide you don't like this and depart the program? If someone on the committee said "Botched undergrad, went into the workforce, decided he didn't like it, and no wants to try grad school - what a flake!" how would you respond?
• Finally, what are your post-PhD plans? The number of permanent positions is limited, and smaller than the number of graduates. If you are planning on continuing, you will be competing with the 4.0 students from well-regarded universities. How do you plan on out-competing them?

I know this isn't pleasant, but that's where you are. And I want you to understand that after a year or two of busting your butt, where you will be after that time.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Oh, and as a PS. You want to do all that and hold down a job too? Is that really realistic?

Further, there are not many physics graduate programs in Tennessee: Memphis, Knoxvilkle and Nashville. That means if you want to keep working, you have zero or one option.

 

[StatGuy2000]

I'm sure I will have people complain that I am a big old meanie, but I think you need to take a long, hard look at where you are and where you want to go.

• In grad school, a C is failing. By their standards, you have an F average. ("No, it's an F-plus!") And grad classes are harder than undergrad. It's not a question - you have demonstrated that you cannot handle the work, and it will take a lot of effort and a long term track record to undemonstrate it.
• You will have no letters from your undergraduate days. The committee will conclude, perhaps wrongly, perhaps not, that nobody was willing to write them.
• A lot of people say "I'll just ace the PGRE!". Not as many do. You should take a practice test right now and see where you stand. It won't be enough to get a "pretty good" score, because the schools will still look at your F average. It needs to be stellar, and even at stellar, a lot of places will not want to take the risk with an F average.
• How do you intend to pay for this? A fellowship? With an F average? A teaching assistantship? Again, with that average? A research assistantship? With no research experience at all? Your best hope is self-pay, and that's not cheap.
• You have no research experience and want a research degree? How does the committee know you won't decide you don't like this and depart the program? If someone on the committee said "Botched undergrad, went into the workforce, decided he didn't like it, and no wants to try grad school - what a flake!" how would you respond?
• Finally, what are your post-PhD plans? The number of permanent positions is limited, and smaller than the number of graduates. If you are planning on continuing, you will be competing with the 4.0 students from well-regarded universities. How do you plan on out-competing them?

I know this isn't pleasant, but that's where you are. And I want you to understand that after a year or two of busting your butt, where you will be after that time.

@Vanadium 50 , you have given the OP all the reasons why they are unlikely to get accepted into any graduate program in physics.

But what you have failed to provide is any meaningful suggestion as to what path is feasible for them to advance in their career. So let me ask you something.

1. Do you think that the OP will not be able to get accepted into ANY graduate program, or only a PhD program in physics?

2. Continuing on #1, let's suppose that the OP wants to pivot away from physics and instead leverage their experience into something different, like say computer science, operations research, or health informatics (I'm giving these examples based on the copy of the CV that the OP posted, based presumably on their current job). Do you feel that path is open (say, a MS in operations research, as an example)?

Aside: I think you are trying to be realistic, instead of being "a meanie". But what you are not doing is giving enough information that would ultimately be helpful to the OP.

 

[Vanadium 50]

1. Do you think that the OP will not be able to get accepted into ANY graduate program, or only a PhD program in physics?

I knew you'd complain.

His geographic constraints (keep his job) restrict him to zero or one universities. That's a problem. I don't want to say his chances are identically zero, but I would say his application packet is well, well below that of any accepted grad student I have ever seen, anywhere. I don't have a crystal ball, so can't guarantee he won't get lucky. But that's what he needs - luck.

He's also not going to fix his packet with a couple of classes. I estimate he needs two or three more years of full-time work to become competitive. I think he deserves to know this going in. He is not going to fix things by a weekend or two studying for the GRE.

2. Continuing on #1, let's suppose that the OP wants to pivot away from physics

He didn't ask this, so I didn't answer it.

 

[gwnorth]

I intend to apply to a general physics program.

What does that mean in relation to pursuing a research Master's or a PhD? Graduate degrees are specialist degrees and they're designed for you to start narrowing your focus. They aren't an extension of generalized undergraduate education. In these types of programs you work closely with a research supervisor on a specific field/topic of research. Just because a program is "general" doesn't mean that you're going to continue studying every field of Physics. The course work you take will be informed by the field of research that you intend to pursue, it's not necessarily standardized for every student. So while a program may not specifically claim to be a MSc in Medical Radiation Physics or Astrophysics for example, you are going to have to have a area of research in mind.

The exception to this would potentially be a course-based master's but while that could potentially aid you in raising your GPA, it's not going to address your need for research experience to be admitted to a PhD.

Another alternative would be a post-baccalaureate bridge program.

https://www.umdgradmap.org/bridge-programs

 

[Ricodouga]

Thank you everyone for evaluating my situation. I understand there is a lot of work to do if I were to be admitted to graduate school.

Gathering everyone's input, it seems best for me to pick up my course knowledge, do well on PGRE, and apply for either a master's or post-baccalaureate program to fix my GPA, gain research experience, and narrow my research interest. I will try to focus on these things.

 

[gmax137]

@Ricodouga , please come back to this thread from time to time, and update us on what you're doing and how things are going. We have had many threads like this one but few if any really follow up. Hearing back on your story would provide valuable info for other people in similar situations.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I don't think bridge programs are the answer.

(1) They are usually intended, sometimes explicitly, sometimes imp[licitly to improve diversity. As an Asian male, the reaction will be, sadly, "we have enough of your ilk already."

(2) You need 2-3 years work to catch up. Call it 5 semesters. These programs would rather support five students for one semester than one student for five.

What score did you get on the Physics GRE Practice Test?

I thought I posted this earlier - I guess I didn't.

 

[StatGuy2000]

I knew you'd complain.

To be clear, I am not complaining -- I was asking for clarification, so that you can provide the details that will actually help the OP in their decisions.

After all, that is the whole rationale in even replying in the Academic Guidance or Career Guidance sections of PF -- to provide advice or help to those who ask, to the extent possible.

His geographic constraints (keep his job) restrict him to zero or one universities. That's a problem. I don't want to say his chances are identically zero, but I would say his application packet is well, well below that of any accepted grad student I have ever seen, anywhere. I don't have a crystal ball, so can't guarantee he won't get lucky. But that's what he needs - luck.

He's also not going to fix his packet with a couple of classes. I estimate he needs two or three more years of full-time work to become competitive. I think he deserves to know this going in. He is not going to fix things by a weekend or two studying for the GRE.

Look at what I had bolded in your quotes above. That is what I call meaningful advice -- that the OP that they need two or three more years of full time work to become competitive.

 

[CrysPhys]

Thank you everyone for evaluating my situation. I understand there is a lot of work to do if I were to be admitted to graduate school.

Gathering everyone's input, it seems best for me to pick up my course knowledge, do well on PGRE, and apply for either a master's or post-baccalaureate program to fix my GPA, gain research experience, and narrow my research interest. I will try to focus on these things.

By now you realize that redeeming your abysmal undergrad record via direct means (getting A's in additional courses, getting a stellar score in the PGRE, ...) will be iffy. In my opinion, you will need personal intervention by someone (e.g., a professor or researcher) with a strong reputation and a strong standing in your field of interest. Someone who can bypass routine channels and speak personally on your behalf.

You apparently have established a decent, nearly 3 yr record at your current position with medical physicists. The most expeditious route for you, assuming medical physics is in your cards, is to leverage the relationships you already have (at least as a starting point).

But if you insist on pursuing some other branch of physics, then you need to start over as a research assistant/technician at a university, industrial, or government lab, prove yourself worthy, and hope to find a benevolent advocate (I believe that's the lingo de jour; in the past, such a person was called a 'champion' or 'angel'). Only you can decide whether the risk is worth it.