Skipping Straight to Grad School (don't laugh)

[Edin_Dzeko]

Would you rather you get everything right straight away? Wouldn't it just be *too* easy? I find what you describe much more fun than the former but hey, maybe that's just me.

hm... [sarcasm] this is a really tough one...[/sarcasm]. Yes!

 

[micromass]

[1] You're not serious are you? Have you been on a college campus or a college lecture hall before? Classmates are interested in discussing physics and having deep discussions? No way, bro. You think the conversation that's usually going on between college students (even physics majors) are about deep physics? . The only way college can be intellectually stimulating is if an individual makes it that way themselves. Otherwise, college won't intellectually stimulate you in anyway. Go ask many 4.0 students why they're completely clueless about subjects they got A's in. Intellectually stimulating my **s.

Well, I guess you have very bad contact with your classmates. Not everybody is keen on discussing interesting things, but there are always some students out there who are. I know a few people who were in my class who I could talk to about math.

[2] I find it hard to believe a professor will push you to do your best. It lies solely on you to push yourself to do your best. Unless you make yourself known to the professor, you'll even just be a name on a piece of paper to him. The professor don't care about you to the extent to push you to do your best. You have to push yourself. You are spot on with your research point though. But there are even ways around that.

Not at all. Professors were always quite nice to me and we could talk about a lot. We were certainly not just a name on a piece of paper! They knew uss all personally. Some even asked us to enter a math competition and they helped us with it (in their free time!).
Admitted, not every prof will be like that, but some are!

[3] Learn? Ease the learning process? I can't believe what I'm reading. Do you know what learning means? Ease the learning process? How?

I'm saddened that you don't have the same university experience than the most of us. University is a stimulating place. Whether you go to a bad university, or whether it's you you, I don't know. Maybe you should start by being less judgmental??

 

[Mépris]

In the event I'm frustrated to no end, then perhaps I might want to but I'd rather just leave the problem as it is, if I can afford to, and come back to it on a later date. I find much more satisfaction this way.

If things were to get unbelievably too easy, I'd eventually move on to something else. I like math and physics because while I'm kinda good at 'em, I'm not good enough. They prove to be a challenge for me. If neither of them didn't, I'd have stopped a long time ago.

 

[TMFKAN64]

It's not completely unheard of for a high school and college drop out to go to graduate school. (I remember reading of such a case in the NY Times obituaries a few years ago, when a professor who had done exactly that and went on to have a successful research career had died.) However, it's sort of like saying you'd rather not enter a building through the front door, you'd rather scale the masonry like a human fly and climb in through a small ventilation duct on the roof instead. Yes, I suppose it is possible, but...

Self-study is wonderful, and I'd never discourage it, but it has definite limitations. Firstly, it is very hard, if not impossible, to truly evaluate how well you understand the material on your own. Furthermore, if you get stuck (and at some point, you *will* get stuck), it is difficult to get past this without professors or classmates to talk to.

My experience has been that universities *are* intellectually stimulating environments. Not 24/7, but over the long haul, certainly.

 

[Edin_Dzeko]

Well, I guess you have very bad contact with your classmates. Not everybody is keen on discussing interesting things, but there are always some students out there who are. I know a few people who were in my class who I could talk to about math.

Not at all. Professors were always quite nice to me and we could talk about a lot. We were certainly not just a name on a piece of paper! They knew uss all personally. Some even asked us to enter a math competition and they helped us with it (in their free time!).
Admitted, not every prof will be like that, but some are!

I'm saddened that you don't have the same university experience than the most of us. University is a stimulating place. Whether you go to a bad university, or whether it's you you, I don't know. Maybe you should start by being less judgmental??

[1] YOU, you, you. You're being specific to just you, man. You're the exception to the rule. But remember in science, the amount of people that's taken into consideration for research is an important factor. Your experience is not enough. Learn to look at the big picture.

[2] It comes back to you again. YOU are not enough to make some of these conclusions. Suppose you never went forward, tried to get to know your professor, your professor wouldn't have come to you and tried to get to know you. He/she doesn't care! Especially in a large lecture class. You have to make the initiative, take the first step. Goes back to what I was saying about the individual pushing him/herself. Prof's don't care about you.

[3] You don't have a clue about my university experience. So I'm judgmental because I challenge you, express my opinion? C'mon, debate my points; don't attack me.

 

[Edin_Dzeko]

In the event I'm frustrated to no end, then perhaps I might want to but I'd rather just leave the problem as it is, if I can afford to, and come back to it on a later date. I find much more satisfaction this way.

If things were to get unbelievably too easy, I'd eventually move on to something else. I like math and physics because while I'm kinda good at 'em, I'm not good enough. They prove to be a challenge for me. If neither of them didn't, I'd have stopped a long time ago.

It's just your opinion / pref and that's okay. My pref / opinion is that I would have it easy and not stress out. I would breeze through the work, go hang with the guys or something than sit there going in circles for ages. .

 

[TMFKAN64]

[1] YOU, you, you. You're being specific to just you, man. You're the exception to the rule.

Actually, I think that *YOU* are the exception to the rule!

 

[Edin_Dzeko]

It's not completely unheard of for a high school and college drop out to go to graduate school. (I remember reading of such a case in the NY Times obituaries a few years ago, when a professor who had done exactly that and went on to have a successful research career had died.) However, it's sort of like saying you'd rather not enter a building through the front door, you'd rather scale the masonry like a human fly and climb in through a small ventilation duct on the roof instead. Yes, I suppose it is possible, but...

Self-study is wonderful, and I'd never discourage it, but it has definite limitations. Firstly, it is very hard, if not impossible, to truly evaluate how well you understand the material on your own. Furthermore, if you get stuck (and at some point, you *will* get stuck), it is difficult to get past this without professors or classmates to talk to.

My experience has been that universities *are* intellectually stimulating environments. Not 24/7, but over the long haul, certainly.

[1] You think OP is unaware that he's taking the harder route?

[2] He's not ruling out schooling. In-fact he's trying to get into grad school where there will be professors, classmates, etc., but the issue here is how he's going to get there. By skipping unnecessary bulls**t or...?

[3] Universities (in the U.S.) = big joke! nothing intellectually stimulating unless the individual makes it that way even then he / she is surrounded by a campus culture that teaches against him/her pursuing intellectual things

 

[Highway]

it might be easier to take some of the upper level physics classes and no get an undergrad degree, then apply that way. . .

you get the perks of not taking the "bs classes" and the benefit of formal instruction.

 

[Edin_Dzeko]

Actually, I think that *YOU* are the exception to the rule!

How so?

 

[Choppy]

It comes back to you again. YOU are not enough to make some of these conclusions. Suppose you never went forward, tried to get to know your professor, your professor wouldn't have come to you and tried to get to know you. He/she doesn't care! Especially in a large lecture class. You have to make the initiative, take the first step. Goes back to what I was saying about the individual pushing him/herself. Prof's don't care about you.

I care about my students.

 

[nickadams]

[3] Universities (in the U.S.) = big joke! nothing intellectually stimulating unless the individual makes it that way even then he / she is surrounded by a campus culture that teaches against him/her pursuing intellectual things

I always see you post stuff like this and it leads me to believe you go to a bad school. You can't call HYPSM, caltech, berkeley etc. big jokes.

 

[Edin_Dzeko]

I always see you post stuff like this and it leads me to believe you go to a bad school.You can't call HYPSM, caltech, berkeley etc. big jokes.

I'm sorry, I'm not impressed by "names"

 

[micromass]

[1] YOU, you, you. You're being specific to just you, man. You're the exception to the rule. But remember in science, the amount of people that's taken into consideration for research is an important factor. Your experience is not enough. Learn to look at the big picture.

[2] It comes back to you again. YOU are not enough to make some of these conclusions. Suppose you never went forward, tried to get to know your professor, your professor wouldn't have come to you and tried to get to know you. He/she doesn't care! Especially in a large lecture class. You have to make the initiative, take the first step. Goes back to what I was saying about the individual pushing him/herself. Prof's don't care about you.

[3] You don't have a clue about my university experience. So I'm judgmental because I challenge you, express my opinion? C'mon, debate my points; don't attack me.

You're doing the same as me. You also aren't enough to make the conclusions you make! Your experience is also not enough! So please, stop spouting nonsense that university aren't intellectual or are a big joke. It isn't true.

 

[Edin_Dzeko]

I care about my students.

If you don't mind, may I ask some questions?

[1]what level do you teach at?
[2]how big / small is your class?

 

[Ryan_m_b]

I'm sorry, I'm not impressed by "names"

How about results? Most good universities are good universities because they produce successful alumni and produce good research.

 

[Edin_Dzeko]

You're doing the same as me. You also aren't enough to make the conclusions you make! Your experience is also not enough! So please, stop spouting nonsense that university aren't intellectual or are a big joke. It isn't true.

I'm not going by experience alone. This is something I've witnessed not just at my school, with my professors, but with other students, other professors, and at other schools.

A university can only be intellectually stimulating environments if the individual decides to make it that way. The argument you guys are making is that the university rather push's the individual towards intellect because of the environment. That's not true. It's completely bogus! It's up to the individual to push themselves, learn, and pursue intellect.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

I'm not going by experience alone. This is something I've witnessed not just at my school, with my professors, but with other students, other professors, and at other schools.

A university can only be intellectually stimulating environments if the individual decides to make it that way. The argument you guys are making is that the university rather push's the individual towards intellect because of the environment. That's not true. It's completely bogus! It's up to the individual to push themselves, learn, and pursue intellect.

Why on Earth do you think that your experience is worth more than others? Oh, because you've seen it elsewhere. I'm sorry but no. All of my university experiences (I've been to more than one) have meant that I have both encountered bad and good environments, there have been good professors that stimulate and excite, good classes full of intelligent and interested people and good students who really like to stimulate themselves and each others. On the other hand I've seen the exact opposite to that. It all depends on the people, not much else.

Good universities are good because they get results, they become famous for producing well educated alumni who go on to be successes and if they perform genuinely important and good work. There is also an element of branding I admit but you can't deny the former two points.

 

[Edin_Dzeko]

How about results? Most good universities are good universities because they produce successful alumni and produce good research.

[1] Success is a personal thing. I consider my father a very successful individual. He doesn't have a college degree. Come at me again about success. Many state schools also produce MD's, engineers, lawyers, politicians, should I go on?

[2] Good research? I don't believe that. Good research doesn't only happen at "big name" schools. They just have resources.

 

[micromass]

[1] Success is a personal thing. I consider my father a very successful individual. He doesn't have a college degree. Come at me again about success. Many state schools also produce MD's, engineers, lawyers, politicians, should I go on?

So MD's, engineers and lawyers aren't succesful? Or they are worthlesss degrees?? Not sure what you're getting at...

[2] Good research? I don't believe that. Good research doesn't only happen at "big name" schools. They just have resources.

Indeed, good research happens everywhere. That's why universities are an exciting place! And they are intellectually stimulating to a lot of people. But not to you, I guess...

 

[Ryan_m_b]

[1] Success is a personal thing. I consider my father a very successful individual. He doesn't have a college degree. Come at me again about success. Many state schools also produce MD's, engineers, lawyers, politicians, should I go on?

Not sure what you mean by state school (hint: not everyone from this forum is from your country yet we still have universities). Also you are being very fallacious here, you are drawing the false inference from what I and others have said that you can only be successful if you got to a good university. Ridiculous. However if you look at all the alumni of a university and measure things like wealth, position, what they've done and find that the majority of people score highly it makes the university look good. Especially if you look at specifics i.e. many biologists from university X are more successful biologists than those from university Y.

[2] Good research? I don't believe that. Good research doesn't only happen at "big name" schools. They just have resources.

Who said they did? Not me certainly. If a university big or small does good research they can get funding to do more, this builds up over time and eventually the reputation of that university becomes great for good reason.

 

[Evo]

[1] Success is a personal thing. I consider my father a very successful individual. He doesn't have a college degree. Come at me again about success. Many state schools also produce MD's, engineers, lawyers, politicians, should I go on?

[2] Good research? I don't believe that. Good research doesn't only happen at "big name" schools. They just have resources.

You are derailing this thread with your personal grievances. No more off topic posts.

 

[Edin_Dzeko]

Why on Earth do you think that your experience is worth more than others? Oh, because you've seen it elsewhere. I'm sorry but no. All of my university experiences (I've been to more than one) have meant that I have both encountered bad and good environments, there have been good professors that stimulate and excite, good classes full of intelligent and interested people and good students who really like to stimulate themselves and each others. On the other hand I've seen the exact opposite to that. It all depends on the people, not much else.

Good universities are good because they get results, they become famous for producing well educated alumni who go on to be successes and if they perform genuinely important and good work. There is also an element of branding I admit but you can't deny the former two points.

[1] I bet not just in the classroom either
[2] That's what I'm getting at. The INDIVIDUAL.
[3] What's the meaning of education? Then tell me what a good education is. Then tell me what it means to be well educated. Being well educated doesn't happen in some overpriced institution.
[4] Admit it it's mostly about "bragging" rights than anything else. Everything you mentioned: success, genuinely important & good work can by seen in many people who didn't go to over-priced institutions. I'm not convinced. No human being is higher than another. To use something like the name of a school one attended to separate people, that's just wrong. I've heard what you're arguing but I stand firm on my original point: I'm not impressed by "names". Don't care if you went to Yale. You're not different from the student who went to Hudson Valley Community College.

 

[Edin_Dzeko]

You are derailing this thread with your personal grievances. No more off topic posts.

Got it.

 

[SophusLies]

Would you rather you get everything right straight away? Wouldn't it just be *too* easy? I find what you describe much more fun than the former but hey, maybe that's just me.

Naaahhh. But I'm just letting the OP know that it's not only about scoring a good GRE and skipping into grad school. Even after studying hard for 4 years as an undergrad I found out very quickly that grad school is a beast.

 

[Mépris]

Victor, let us know how things work out for you. I'm very interested in this.

E_D, perhaps you should consider going to a university which is more concentrated towards your field of interest? If not that, then getting into contact with people who study in that kind of place is a good start.

Taking the rest of this to another thread...

Naaahhh. But I'm just letting the OP know that it's not only about scoring a good GRE and skipping into grad school. Even after studying hard for 4 years as an undergrad I found out very quickly that grad school is a beast.

I see. :)

 

[deRham]

] Universities (in the U.S.) = big joke! nothing intellectually stimulating unless the individual makes it that way even then he / she is surrounded by a campus culture that teaches against him/her pursuing intellectual things

This is not true. The main argument against it is that you can't talk of a university as a whole - some of these have a few thousand or many thousand students. Seriously, you're probably only going to know around 20 people in the academic community very well, and as long as they're really smart and motivated, it's hugely, hugely worth it.

In academia for instance, there are maybe 2-3 people at some universities working on the same thing, but it's still often VERY important to be in their presence and learn what they have to say.

You don't have to be impressed by big names. Try seriously learning what the professors at Harvard, MIT, etc accomplish, and you'll figure out very soon that it's stuff that boggles the minds of brilliant students from all over the world, not just the few scattered at those schools.

 

[deRham]

Success is a personal thing. I consider my father a very successful individual. He doesn't have a college degree.

I also have family which was successful without a college degree. That doesn't mean that good universities don't offer tremendous opportunity themselves.

I would argue there are various definitions of success that can all be pretty valid, and both the academic who advances knowledge by taking advantage of the scholars around a university and the brilliant engineer who somehow makes it big without ever having a college education are successful, and that it's not worth arguing that one of them isn't.

 

[deRham]

Good research? I don't believe that. Good research doesn't only happen at "big name" schools. They just have resources.

There is good research in many places. But at least in the research world, it is quite often that the big names congregate at certain "big name schools" because really, people who are at the highest level in an area of research want to be around each other. That simple.

 

[MissSilvy]

This forum has wonderful people and is full of lots of good information on all sorts of topics but it also has turds that do nothing but spew their emoticons and unfounded pessimism all over the forums and start fights with other people. OP, take everything you read here with a grain of salt. What you are asking is a very unconventional way of doing physics, one that has been successfully done less than a handful of times among thousands of graduating PhD students. If you are serious about physics and this isn't some passing phase, you will find a way to accomplish it.

 

[qspeechc]

Some of the best advice I've seen in this thread has been from MissSilvy, post #28, page2, which seems to have been totally ignored in all this personal bickering.

 

[Liboy597]

Sorry to say it but Edin_Dzeko nailed it perfectly. Higher education is the US is mostly a money making scheme designed to squeeze as much tuition money out of the students as the government will allow. College is mostly a subsidized daycare for 18-22 year olds who would otherwise be inflating the unemployment statistics.

Do you *need* a bachelors degree in physics to get into a grad school? No. In fact, you'll even find on a few grad school pages that a bachelors in *physics* isn't required, only a sufficient knowledge base as evidenced by the PGRE. For the sufficiently motivated student with the right textbooks, you can learn everything you need to do well on the physics GRE without having completed a bachelors. You guys bashing Edin are guilty of projecting your own expectations onto other people. It's not that metaphysical. Most of the people who are members on this forum are very bright, were able to take full advantage of what college had to offer, and were able to get deep insights by interacting with their professors and other like-minded individuals. Your average college student is nothing like this and the limit of their ambition is to simply graduate as painlessly as possible.

The resources and lecture videos needed to learn a standard undergraduate physics curriculum are freely available online; online educational and telecommunication technologies are uprooting the fundamental and tradition based ideals of what learning is. I'm a soon to be graduating senior and did 2 summer internships at a national lab under the mentorship of a Harvard PHD physicist studying nano-electronics. Believe when I tell you that most of the students there had no idea what they were doing. One of the chem students there didn't even know what a Jablonski diagram was even though this basic principle was critical to the research he was no doing. In other words, most learning occurs on one's own after the 60 minute lecture has ended and that those people who are bright enough and intelligent enough to get into a physics grad program could do it without the traditional college degree. Look at this guy who learned MIT's entire 4 year computer science curriculum in 1 year, having bought all the textbooks on his own and having taken and passed all of the class exams that were freely available on MIT's online OCW site, having checked and graded his tests afterwards with the solutions. http://www.scotthyoung.com/blog/mit-challenge/