Solving for Masses in an Atwood Machine

  • #1
Venturi365
12
3
Homework Statement
An Atwood's machine uses two masses ##m_{1}## and ##m_{2}##. Starting from rest, the velocity of the two masses is ##v=4\,\mathrm{\frac{m}{s}}## after ##3\,\mathrm{s}##. In that instant, the kinetic energy of the system is ##E_{k}=80\,\mathrm{J}## and each one of the masses has moved ##6\,\mathrm{m}##. Calculate the values of ##m_{1}## and ##m_{2}##
Relevant Equations
##P=\frac{E_{k}}{t}##
##P=F\cdot v##
##\sum F=ma##
##E_{k}=\frac{1}{2}mv^{2}##
I've tried to solve this exercise but I haven't used one of the properties of the system (the displacement of the masses) so I don't know if I'm wrong about my procedure.

First of all, we (obviously) know that

$$
P=P
$$

And since we can express the power of a force in two different ways, we can say that:

$$
\frac{E_{k}}{t}=F\cdot v \quad \text{or} \quad \frac{mv^{2}}{2t}=F\cdot v
$$

Since the energy of the system is known and the mass of the system is ##(m_{1}+m_{2})## then:

$$
\begin{split}
\frac{E_{k}}{t}&=\frac{mv^2}{2t}\\
\frac{80}{3}&=\frac{(m_{1}+m_{2})4^{2}}{2\cdot 3}\\
(m_{1}+m_{2})&=\frac{80\cdot 2\cdot 3}{16\cdot 3}\\
m_{1}+m_{2}&=10\,\mathrm{kg}
\end{split}
$$

Applying Newton's Second law we can express the forces on each mass like this:

$$
\begin{split}
w_{1}-T&=m_{1}a\\
T-w_{2}&=m_{2}a
\end{split}
$$

Adding up both equations we get:

$$
\begin{split}
m_{1}g-m_{2}g&=m_{1}a+m_{2}a\\
g(m_{1}-m_{2})&=a(m_{1}+m_{2}\\
(m_{1}+m_{2})a&=g(m_{1}-m_{2})\\
(m_{1}-m_{2}&=\frac{a(m_{1}+m_{2})}{g}\\
m_{1}-m_{2}&=\frac{\frac{4}{3}\cdot10}{9.81}\\
m_{1}-m_{2}&\approx =1.36\,\mathrm{kg}
\end{split}
$$

Now we have a simple system of equations:

$$
\begin{cases}
m_{1}+m_{2}=10\\
m_{1}-m_{2}=1.36
\end{cases}
$$

Solving we get:

$$
\begin{array}{ll}
m_{1}=1.36+m_{2} & m_{1}+4.32=10\\
1.36+m_{2}+m_{2}=10 & m_{1}=10-4.32\\
m_{2}=\frac{10-1.36}{2} & m_{1}=5.68\,\mathrm{kg}\\
m_{2}=4.32\,\mathrm{kg}
\end{array}
$$

So, am I right or did I do something wrong? The only thing that I really doubt about my procedure is the fact that I assume that the net force is ##F=a(m_{1}+m_{2})## but still I'm quite insecure.
 
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  • #2
Here's the diagram btw

imagen_2023-11-08_144406652.png
 
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  • #3
You cannot use P = E/t since the energy put into the system varies with time. In particular, at t=0 the velocity is zero so P = Fv is zero for both masses.
 
  • #4
You have already found that ##(m_1+m_2)a=(m_1-m_2)g## where ##a=\frac{4}{3}~##m/s2. That's one equation relating the masses.
Conservation of mechanical energy is a second equation relating the masses.
You have a system of two equations and two unknowns.
 
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  • #5
Orodruin said:
You cannot use P = E/t since the energy put into the system varies with time. In particular, at t=0 the velocity is zero so P = Fv is zero for both masses.
While that is true, and is certainly worth pointing out for future reference, it does not appear that @Venturi365 used ##P=Fv##. Rather, ##\frac 12mv^2=E_k## was used to find the sum of the masses and ##F=ma, a=v/t## were used to find the difference.
kuruman said:
You have already found that ##(m_1+m_2)a=(m_1-m_2)g## where ##a=\frac{4}{3}~##m/s2. That's one equation relating the masses.
Conservation of mechanical energy is a second equation relating the masses.
You have a system of two equations and two unknowns.
Seems to me that is what @Venturi365 did. The question is why the info re the distance moved was not needed. The solution to that is that, assuming constant acceleration, it was redundant: average velocity ##=\frac{u+v}2=\frac st##, ##\frac{0+4}2+\frac 63##.
 
  • #6
haruspex said:
Seems to me that is what @Venturi365 did.
I agree. The two relevant equations that OP already has are
##m_{1}g-m_{2}g=m_{1}a+m_{2}a##
##m_1+m_2=\dfrac{2\Delta K}{v^2}##.
In this form one can solve the second equation for one of the masses and substitute in the first. The displacements would be needed if the second equation were written in terms of ##h## and ##\Delta U = -80## J. In that case, the speed would not be needed.
 
  • #7
haruspex said:
While that is true, and is certainly worth pointing out for future reference, it does not appear that @Venturi365 used ##P=Fv##. Rather, ##\frac 12mv^2=E_k## was used to find the sum of the masses and ##F=ma, a=v/t## were used to find the difference.

Seems to me that is what @Venturi365 did. The question is why the info re the distance moved was not needed. The solution to that is that, assuming constant acceleration, it was redundant: average velocity ##=\frac{u+v}2=\frac st##, ##\frac{0+4}2+\frac 63##.
It's right that I started with one statement and ended up forgetting it, I apologise for that. However, this means that I didn't commit any misconception, right?
 
  • #8
Venturi365 said:
It's right that I started with one statement and ended up forgetting it, I apologise for that. However, this means that I didn't commit any misconception, right?
It appears that you had a misconception, but did not rely on it in your solution.
 
  • #9
haruspex said:
It appears that you had a misconception

Yeah, you're right about that.

Thank you so much!
 
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FAQ: Solving for Masses in an Atwood Machine

What is an Atwood Machine?

An Atwood Machine is a device consisting of two masses connected by a string that passes over a pulley. It is commonly used in physics to study the principles of dynamics and acceleration.

How do you derive the acceleration of the masses in an Atwood Machine?

To derive the acceleration, you can use Newton's second law for each mass. Let m1 and m2 be the masses, with m2 > m1. The net force on the system is (m2 - m1)g, where g is the acceleration due to gravity. The total mass being accelerated is (m1 + m2). Thus, the acceleration a is given by a = (m2 - m1)g / (m1 + m2).

How do you calculate the tension in the string of an Atwood Machine?

To calculate the tension T in the string, consider one of the masses, say m1. The forces acting on m1 are the gravitational force m1g and the tension T. Using Newton's second law, we get T - m1g = m1a. Solving for T gives T = m1(g + a). You can use the derived acceleration a from the previous question.

What assumptions are made in analyzing an Atwood Machine?

The common assumptions include: the pulley is frictionless and massless, the string is inextensible and massless, and the only forces acting are gravitational and tension forces. These simplifications help in deriving the basic equations of motion.

How can you solve for the individual masses if the acceleration and one mass are known?

If the acceleration a and one mass, say m1, are known, you can use the formula for acceleration a = (m2 - m1)g / (m1 + m2). Rearrange this equation to solve for m2: m2 = m1(a + g) / (g - a). This allows you to find the unknown mass m2.

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