Speaking of Tesla (the roadster)

[Sixdeuce062]

Tesla was a very peaceful man and kinda a pacifist but i think he would use some of his more dangerous inventions to keep these guys form ruining his name these nothing special about this car to even earn teslas grace let alone name but it is pretty

 

[mheslep]

... these nothing special about this car to even earn teslas grace let alone name but it is pretty

Using no petroleum is not special? Fastest 0-60mph production electric in the world? Not special?

 

[Argentum Vulpes]

Using no petroleum is not special? Fastest 0-60mph production electric in the world? Not special?

Add to the list this car will blow the doors off everything (straight off the show room floor) except some of the real exotic cars. Yet this is nothing special.

 

[Sixdeuce062]

Ok what I meant was a( an electric motor has been put in a vechicle and functions outstandingly better than an ICE and it has been done for over 80 years B) has nothing to do with tesla or his achivements C) the only thing that sets this above and beyond is the power system and the type of batteries its has have been out for a while in labtops( very expensive). I am not saying its a bad car but its what I have been saying for years electrolyic cell powered cars are not cost effective or practical unless some one stumbles across and compound that holds an awsome amount of power and is cost-effective, its just a pipe dream. Now that's not saying that an electric "driven" vechicle is bad I am all for an electric motor moving my car but not battery powered. I have build two cars like that, you just waste money form start to finish compared to what you get out of them

 

[baywax]

The Tesla company has a rival (history repeats itself)

http://www.sce.com/Feature/Obama-EV-Tech-Center.htm"

 

[OmCheeto]

I have owned a Tesla roadster for about year now and would like to throw in my two cents. Most of the opinions expressed here have merit, but different people have different reasons for buying cars.

Russ is correct that the total operating costs for the Tesla, especially considering battery replacement, are high. But people don't buy $125,000 cars to save money. I thought it was cool that a bunch of geeks in silicon valley could beat the big automakers to the punch, and I like to support innovation. There is a cost associated with early versions of products, and these costs tend to come down over time. I can buy a computer today for $500 that would run rings around a $3000 computer from days past. I don't think it is fair criticism to say the car is overpriced -- of course it is, they have only made 1,000 of them. Chances are they will go out of business, but without Tesla you would probably be waiting a long time for the Volt and the more practical cars that will succeed it. They embarrassed the big automakers into innovating.

As for the environmental aspect, perhaps the first electric cars will not be champs but later ones will be. Like it or not, gasoline-powered vehicles are on the way out. Oil will eventually run out, whether in 50 years or 500 is not so important. My feeling is that while cars can run without oil, airplanes cannot, so as a practical matter it would seem wise to save oil for things that have to use it.

I doubt that anyone owns a Tesla as their primary vehicle. As a mode of transportation, it is a novelty. It isn't going to solve the world's environmental problems, and it isn't a luxury vehicle. It is difficult to get in and out of, isn't all that comfortable, has a barely adequate sound system, a weak air conditioner, and doesn't go very far. But it is a lot of fun, is paving the way for the future, I suspect is a lot cheaper to operate than a Bentley, and when you hit the "gas", you go very fast.

Something probably lost on people just watching from the outside. I went to an electric drag race last year and was rather ho-hummed by the lack of noise.

For example, listen to this image:

But the following video made me wonder; "How many people under the age of 30 have been in a car that could hit 60 mph in less than 4 seconds?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nxF0-HQB5I&hl
It's no wonder us old people don't think bicycles are the answer to the worlds transportation problems. We need to figure out how to put the big-grin factor into some of these equations.

And as far as future battery replacement costs, bad news for one of my stocks, and good news for EV drivers:

http://www.streetauthority.com/a/5-green-stocks-set-rebound-456659"
Friday, October 15, 2010
...
But A123 has another problem on its hands. A pair of giant lithium-ion battery makers -- Japan's Panasonic and Korea's Samsung -- has recently stated plans to radically boost spending to retain industry dominance. They also plan to cut prices to pursue market share, and that's a battle that relatively tiny A123 is ill-equipped to fight. So even as the company looks set to sharply boost sales in 2011 and 2012, gross profit margins may be so low that the company's operating losses fail to shrink. The key for a turnaround in this stock is a path to eventual profits. And until investors can see that path, shares are unlikely to rebound much.

And there I thought it was going to be China that I was going to have to worry about.

 

[Topher925]

And there I thought it was going to be China that I was going to have to worry about.

Nah, china is turning out to be not such a threat that people thought it would be. A lot of the chinese battery makers tend to exaggerate (or completely lie about) the performance of their batteries and OEMs that build electric cars/hybrids know this. Plus there's the ever concerning factor of safety.

So there's all the hubbub about the Tesla, why is no one talking about the Leaf?

 

[mheslep]

So there's all the hubbub about the Tesla, why is no one talking about the Leaf?

I noticed the EPA just released some new trial EPA window stickers especially for electric vehicles, including one for the Leaf. I was particularly interested to see if the EPA would venture into range estimates; they did, but not with any scrutiny and that smacks of pressure to make EVs look good. The EPA sticker has the Nissan Leaf's range at 100 miles which is nominal but grossly misleading, as the Leaf's battery lacks temperature controls meaning the range can be as low as 50 miles in the cold, which Nissan itself has admitted.

http://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/label/images/2010/labels-2-electric.jpg

 

[baywax]

I noticed the EPA just released some new trial EPA window stickers especially for electric vehicles, including one for the Leaf. I was particularly interested to see if the EPA would venture into range estimates; they did, but not with any scrutiny and that smacks of pressure to make EVs look good. The EPA sticker has the Nissan Leaf's range at 100 miles which is nominal but grossly misleading, as the Leaf's battery lacks temperature controls meaning the range can be as low as 50 miles in the cold, which Nissan itself has admitted.

http://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/label/images/2010/labels-2-electric.jpg

What is the temperature problem with batteries anyway. I remember Fuel Cell maker Ballard having to test their vehicles up here in Canuck land (where they were build for busses) to see if they could battle the effects of cold on their cells and there were some problems without any explanation.

 

[russ_watters]

Batteries lose capacity when it is cold. That's a fundamental chemistry problem.

 

[Physics-Learner]

i am not sure why there is so much hype about tesla. there are all sorts of companies coming out with electric vehicles (evs). gas car days are numbered. i think 10 years from now, few new cars sold will be gasoline cars.

 

[Topher925]

The EPA sticker has the Nissan Leaf's range at 100 miles which is nominal but grossly misleading, as the Leaf's battery lacks temperature controls meaning the range can be as low as 50 miles in the cold, which Nissan itself has admitted.

The Leaf does have temperature control for their batteries to an extent. Otherwise I don't think they would be allowed to put the car on the road. The biggest issue with the Leaf is that it uses air cooled batteries and not water cooling/heating.

Why is this a big deal? LiIon batteries have some major thermal management issues, mostly due to thermodynamic effects of the reaction switching between entropic heating and entropic cooling during discharge (it can put out heat or consume heat during discharge and charge). Couple that with the effects that heat has on dendrite formation and SEI formation, an air cooled LiIon battery doesn't seem like a very good idea. I believe one of the big shots and Tesla even stated that Nissan's battery technology is obsolete and outdated by 10 years.

However, by using an air cooled system, you can build a cheaper car. If you look at the design of the Leaf and taking into account things like the air cooled batteries and permanent magnet motor, its obvious that the car was built to a price point. Its also obvious by Nissan's sales demographic that the car wasn't meant to be operated in very hot or cold conditions and only in areas that have a relatively mild and uniform climate.

I remember Fuel Cell maker Ballard having to test their vehicles up here in Canuck land (where they were build for busses) to see if they could battle the effects of cold on their cells and there were some problems without any explanation.

PEM fuel cells will operate just find above 0'C although the power output will be decreased. The issue with PEM fuel cells that when water freezes in side of the cell it damages the internal components, most notably the interface between the catalyst electrode layers and the membrane. After a cell has gone through a freeze-thaw cycle a few times these two components will delaminate from each other and cause the cell to operate with reduced performance and can even completely kill it.

 

[Topher925]

Batteries lose capacity when it is cold. That's a fundamental chemistry problem.

Actually, the capacity remains almost the same. What happens is that the kinetics slow down. In other words processes like diffusion and migration limit the discharge rate of the battery so only the apparent capacity really decreases so its really a transport and not necessarily a chemical problem. The effective discharge capacity is decreased by temperature due to decreased conductivity of the electrolyte (creates more overpotential) but its usually diffusion effects that limit the range a battery has in an EV.

 

[Barwick]

After the gulf spill I'm not going to even attempt to calculate the cost of a litre of gas in terms of environmental, economic and other upheavals... please feel free to work in those expenses... my guesstimate is that $36,000 worth of gas = about 1 litre. : ' •

Do you KNOW the environmental cost to produce those batteries? It's absolutely insane. A Toyota Prius actually does more legitimate damage to the environment through its manufacturing methods than a similarly produced car does through its manufacturing AND entire lifespan of burning gasoline.

Not to mention the gulf oil spill wouldn't have happened if wackjob environmentalists didn't keep coming up with new ways to prohibit drilling in safe waters near shore, forcing companies to move into FIVE THOUSAND FEET deep water.

 

[mheslep]

The Leaf does have temperature control for their batteries to an extent. Otherwise I don't think they would be allowed to put the car on the road. The biggest issue with the Leaf is that it uses air cooled batteries and not water cooling/heating.

Why is this a big deal? LiIon batteries have some major thermal management issues, mostly due to thermodynamic effects of the reaction switching between entropic heating and entropic cooling during discharge (it can put out heat or consume heat during discharge and charge). Couple that with the effects that heat has on dendrite formation and SEI formation, an air cooled LiIon battery doesn't seem like a very good idea.

I was referring mainly to warming the battery in cold weather so that it doesn't temporarily loose capacity and thus limit the vehicle range. Cooling the battery in hot conditions is an issue for the reasons you detail, but then overheating causes a gradual reduction of battery life, and not a wake up one morning in N. Dakota and suddenly your vehicle range is cut in half scenario. Nissan could make good on shortened battery life in 3-4 years by replacing them; it can't help the guy in N. Dakota who came up 10 miles short from work.

 

[mheslep]

Do you KNOW the environmental cost to produce those batteries? It's absolutely insane. A Toyota Prius actually does more legitimate damage to the environment through its manufacturing methods than a similarly produced car does through its manufacturing AND entire lifespan of burning gasoline.

Not to mention the gulf oil spill wouldn't have happened if wackjob environmentalists didn't keep coming up with new ways to prohibit drilling in safe waters near shore, forcing companies to move into FIVE THOUSAND FEET deep water.

Nonsense, both paragraphs.

 

[Physics-Learner]

i am a big ev enthusiast. it is probably best that nissan did not put extra money into a thermal management system for their batteries.

at this point, price is the biggest deterrent for the consumer.

the leaf does not have to be the car for everyone. there are many areas in the country where climate is not severe enough (hot or cold) that a thermal management system is needed.

the coda has a thermal management system, although it will only be sold in california for the first year.

but the main gist is that we need to get evs out on the road. the sales force simply needs to be honest about what their cars can and can not do.

so perhaps the leaf should simply not be sold in area with temperature extremes ?

there are many companies coming out with evs, so things will be interesting for quite a few years.

 

[Topher925]

Nonsense, both paragraphs.

You read both paragraphs? I stopped after the first.

i am a big ev enthusiast. it is probably best that nissan did not put extra money into a thermal management system for their batteries.

at this point, price is the biggest deterrent for the consumer.

the leaf does not have to be the car for everyone. there are many areas in the country where climate is not severe enough (hot or cold) that a thermal management system is needed.

the coda has a thermal management system, although it will only be sold in california for the first year.

but the main gist is that we need to get evs out on the road. the sales force simply needs to be honest about what their cars can and can not do.

so perhaps the leaf should simply not be sold in area with temperature extremes ?

there are many companies coming out with evs, so things will be interesting for quite a few years.

Let me start of by saying that every battery with a high volumetric power density will have a thermal management system in one form or another. The Tesla and Volt use a water cooled system (only safe way to go IMO) and the Leaf uses an air cooled system (can be VERY dangerous). Because of this, the Leaf is NOT being sold in the northern states of the US. Its quite a simple strategy really. If you car can't perform in cold weather, don't sell it to people in cold places.

While there are many new electrical vehicles coming out in the next few years (none by GM, Toyota, or Honda BTW) they are all still just a novelty. For things to get "interesting", battery technology needs to advance by leaps and bounds.

 

[Physics-Learner]

gosh, our batteries are already getting us 100 miles. that is plenty for the majority of people.

improvements will be released as they are needed to sell the cars.

if we needed 200 mile battery packs to sell cars today, you can bet your boots that the cars of today would have them.

car companies are just beginning to ramp up production. demand is high, supply is low. waiting lists for what is available, high prices. this will change dramatically as time goes by.

 

[baywax]

Actually, the capacity remains almost the same. What happens is that the kinetics slow down. In other words processes like diffusion and migration limit the discharge rate of the battery so only the apparent capacity really decreases so its really a transport and not necessarily a chemical problem. The effective discharge capacity is decreased by temperature due to decreased conductivity of the electrolyte (creates more overpotential) but its usually diffusion effects that limit the range a battery has in an EV.

I remember an engineer from Ballard (Hydrogen Fuel Cells) telling me about a plate that acts as a membrane between two solutions (not sure if they were sodium and potassium or hydrogen and oxygen or something), he said they were experimenting with gold overlaying a carbon-graphite frame but that the membrane was getting hammered by the amount of activity in the "battery". The whole process, as I remember it, was to glean electricity from the exchange taking place, like osmosis, between the two solutions. This was a process also affected by temperature. However, during the last winter olympics we had about 23 Ballard fuel cell powered buses running up at Whilster which is at about 6000 ft above sea level with the temperature hovering around zero. Perhaps they've overcome the discharge/migration/temp problem.

 

[baywax]

by Topher

PEM fuel cells will operate just find above 0'C although the power output will be decreased. The issue with PEM fuel cells that when water freezes in side of the cell it damages the internal components, most notably the interface between the catalyst electrode layers and the membrane. After a cell has gone through a freeze-thaw cycle a few times these two components will delaminate from each other and cause the cell to operate with reduced performance and can even completely kill it.

Sorry I didn't see this. Thank you.

 

[baywax]

Do you KNOW the environmental cost to produce those batteries? It's absolutely insane. A Toyota Prius actually does more legitimate damage to the environment through its manufacturing methods than a similarly produced car does through its manufacturing AND entire lifespan of burning gasoline.

Not to mention the gulf oil spill wouldn't have happened if wackjob environmentalists didn't keep coming up with new ways to prohibit drilling in safe waters near shore, forcing companies to move into FIVE THOUSAND FEET deep water.

It would be nice to see some references from you, backing up your statements.

 

[mheslep]

the leaf does not have to be the car for everyone. there are many areas in the country where climate is not severe enough (hot or cold) that a thermal management system is needed.

I'm unaware of any place in the US that could do without year round.

 

[russ_watters]

Actually, the capacity remains almost the same. What happens is that the kinetics slow down. In other words processes like diffusion and migration limit the discharge rate of the battery so only the apparent capacity really decreases so its really a transport and not necessarily a chemical problem. The effective discharge capacity is decreased by temperature due to decreased conductivity of the electrolyte (creates more overpotential) but its usually diffusion effects that limit the range a battery has in an EV.

Slides 7 and 8 here imply that the voltage stays constant while the amp-hour capacity drops substantially (15% from 25C to 0C) with temperature for a lithium battery.
http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels/energystorage/pdfs/evs17poster.pdf

Similar data for lead acid: http://www.engineersedge.com/battery/discharge_rate_temperature_effects_battery.htm

 

[mheslep]

Actually, the capacity remains almost the same.
[...]
The effective discharge capacity is decreased by temperature due to decreased conductivity of the electrolyte (creates more overpotential) but its usually diffusion effects that limit the range a battery has in an EV.

Distinction without a practical difference?

 

[Topher925]

Slides 7 and 8 here imply that the voltage stays constant while the amp-hour capacity drops substantially (15% from 25C to 0C) with temperature for a lithium battery.
http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels/energystorage/pdfs/evs17poster.pdf

Yes, but that's not telling the whole story. Slide 7, top center graph, shows that as discharge current increases and temperature decreases the affective capacity decreases just as Peukert's Law states. However, the experimental data in this graph shows that at low current densities the affective capacity begins to converge to some value greater than 7Ah.

So of course temperature will always decrease the affective capacity, but my point was that its both temperature and operating conditions that affect the observed capacity, not just temperature alone. For example in an electric car which has high discharge rates the affect of temperature on capacity can be substantial, even if you account for relaxation. But for an application like the Kindle, where the battery is discharge over a period of a month or so, the affects of temperature on capacity can be insignificant.

 

[mheslep]

Well the math (from Russ's NREL slides) says all. The internal resistance of any battery, created mainly by the chemistry kinetics, is R = ΔV/I = f(SOC,T,charge/discharge,cycle*). The energy wasted is approximately I² R, meaning useful capacity decreases with increasing load. For high power Li Ion batteries R is typically very, very low, perhaps 1 milliohm for even a laptop sized battery, when T is greater than ~0 deg C.

*Cycle, or battery age, is my addition.

 

[baywax]

I'm unaware of any place in the US that could do without year round.

Wait, I've seen some of those American bowling alleys... they're huge!

 

[Physics-Learner]

well i guess we need to define what temperature extremes are, then.

i think of california as having lots of areas without extremes.

 

[mheslep]

well i guess we need to define what temperature extremes are, then.

i think of california as having lots of areas without extremes.

"[URL LA Hits All-Time High of 113 Degrees
[/URL]
"At Sacramento International Airport, extremes have ranged from 18 °F (−8 °C) on December 22, 1990 to 115 °F (46 °C) on June 15, 1961"

Redding, Ca July average high: 98.3F

and so on. Not much humidity, which is nice for people and other evaporative cooling systems, useless for batteries.

 

[Physics-Learner]

you picked one day in la. la also had one of the coolest summers on record.

lots of northern california, like san francisco, has cloudy weather all the time.

california has a long coast line, where the majority tend to live.

 

[mheslep]

you picked one day in la.

So? As I said:

I'm unaware of any place in the US that could do without year round.

Cook a discharging EV battery in that kind of heat for a few days without some kind of thermal management and you will likely measurably shorten its (currently expensive) life. Drive up into the Sierras in the Winter without a battery heater and you may find the vehicle range cut in half while there.

 

[Topher925]

you picked one day in la. la also had one of the coolest summers on record.

lots of northern california, like san francisco, has cloudy weather all the time.

california has a long coast line, where the majority tend to live.

Most people won't buy a car if they can't drive it one or two days out of the year. This is a big reason why you see so many SUVs and trucks in the northern part of the states that get a lot of snow.

 

[Physics-Learner]

most of these first purchases are not single-car families. but i don't think a few days in a year is going to deter sales of an ev without a superior tms.