Spike protein level in blood, vaccinated vs. infected study

[artis]

So I'll try to be brief. There is a recent study that is titled "Immune imprinting, breadth of variant recognition, and germinal center response in human SARS-CoV-2 infection and vaccination"
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867422000769

Among other stuff it has measured levels of "spike" within blood plasma of both those that had real Covid infection as well as those that got the Pfizer mRNA vaccine. (the study is dealing only with Pfizer vaccine, although I assume Moderna would show very similar results given it's the same mRNA just with higher dosage) Some excerpts

The biodistribution, quantity, and persistence of vaccine mRNA and spike antigen after vaccination and viral antigens after SARS-CoV-2 infection are incompletely understood but are likely to be major determinants of immune responses. We performed in situ hybridization with control and SARS-CoV-2 vaccine mRNA-specific RNAScope probes in the core needle biopsies of the ipsilateral axillary LNs that were collected 7–60 days after the second dose of mRNA-1273 or BNT162b2 vaccination and detected vaccine mRNA collected in the GCs of LNs on days 7, 16, and 37 postvaccination, with lower but still appreciable specific signal at day 60 (Figures 7A–7E). Only rare foci of vaccine mRNA were seen outside of GCs. Axillary LN core needle biopsies of nonvaccinees (n = 3) and COVID-19 patient specimens were negative for vaccine probe hybridization. Immunohistochemical staining for spike antigen in mRNA-vaccinated patient LNs varied between individuals but showed abundant spike protein in GCs 16 days post-second dose, with spike antigen still present as late as 60 days post-second dose.

At least some portion of spike antigen generated after administration of BNT162b2 becomes distributed into the blood. We detected spike antigen in 96% of vaccinees in plasma collected 1–2 days after the prime injection, with antigen levels reaching as high as 174 pg/mL. The range of spike antigen concentrations in the blood of vaccinees at this early time point largely overlaps with the range of spike antigen concentrations reported in plasma in a study of acute infection (Ogata et al., 2020) although a small number of infected individuals had higher concentrations in the ng/mL range

My main question is this. Since we now know that Spike protein is neurotoxic in those that suffer from actual Covid, how safe are the Spike blood concentrations in those that have received the vaccine? This study seems to say that the levels are comparable to those that are infected. Is that "A ok" or rather a cautionary fact that should be researched further?
Would like to hear some commentary on this.

Thanks.

 

[Drakkith]

Since we now know that Spike protein is neurotoxic in those that suffer from actual Covid, how safe are the Spike blood concentrations in those that have received the vaccine?

I hadn't heard this. Do you have a reference? I can't really see how the spike protein itself is neurotoxic without all the other viral components.

 

[artis]

I hadn't heard this. Do you have a reference? I can't really see how the spike protein itself is neurotoxic without all the other viral components.

There are many studies out there talking about this, I cannot find them all on a moment;s notice now but this one is rather good, please see it
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8538996/

Overall, our results indicate that the spike protein from SARS-CoV-2 can induce mitochondrial damage to the brain ECs affecting their respiratory function, possibly leading to the neurological symptoms observed in patients with COVID-19.

Although many studies have focused on its role in the viral entry of SARS-CoV-2 and the targets of immunogen for vaccine development, its pathological role in the brain has not sparked considerable interest. Thus, it is important to unravel the pathological effects of the spike protein on the BBB for several reasons. First, ACE2 protein is expressed in the brain ECs, and it is well-known that the ACE2 protein is the receptor for the spike protein of SARS-CoV2 [21,43]. This suggests that the brain ECs may be used as the portal for its efficient entry into the brain in the point view of SARS-CoV2. If the spike protein itself can induce pathological effects, entry of the virus in the brain ECs itself may trigger damage to the brain ECs. Second, most vaccines for COVID-19 are designed based on the spike protein [47]. If the spike protein itself has a high pathological effect on the brain vasculature, it may be of note to have preventative measures to minimize vasculopathy to limit the consequent damage to the brain after vaccine administration.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41593-020-00771-8

The results from this study show that I-S1 from two different commercial sources readily crosses the mouse BBB, at least when injected intravenously. I-S1 was taken up by all 11 brain regions examined. Such widespread entry into brain of I-S1 could explain the diverse effects of S1 and/or SARS-CoV-2 such as encephalitis, respiratory difficulties and anosmia1,3,4. S1 is the SARS-CoV-2 protein that initially binds to cell-surface receptors, setting the stage for viral internalization. For transport across the BBB, viral binding proteins often behave similarly to the virus itself. For example, interactions (including binding and transport) between the HIV-1 glycoprotein gp120 and the BBB are similar to those for the complete virus18,28. Additionally, many if not most viral proteins themselves can be biologically highly active; for example, gp120 is highly toxic11,12,13,14,15,16,17. Coronavirus spike proteins are often cleaved from the virus by host cell proteases. Once cleaved, Coronavirus spike S1 and S2 subunits are not held covalently by disulfide bonds and so S1 could be shed from virions34. It is possible that during infection by SARS-CoV-2, shed S1 is available to cross the BBB, triggering responses in the brain itself, without necessarily involving crossing of intact virus particles. Thus, determining whether S1 crosses the BBB is important for understanding whether SARS-CoV-2 and S1 itself could induce responses in the brain.

Admittedly I am searching for answers because I got neurological issues after my Pfizer vaccine that were very similar to those that I got after Covid. And it seems I'm not alone in this . 6 months in I'm still feeling them to an extent.What worries me is that apparently there is a comparable Spike concentration in blood after both illness and vaccination (mRNA in this case) and that it seems the Spike alone can enter the brain and do other kinds of damage. So what I seek to understand is whether the spike from the vaccine can do the same?
It is the same full length spike as in the real virus but has one parameter altered which is namely being inn the profused state IIRC, but there I don't know enough so I welcome expert commentary.What I also am not sure of whether the Spike is a safe antigen in general, because it seems to me that none of these issues were known back when it was chosen as the main candidate for vaccines. Yet now I see more and more studies cautiously question it's safety.
Anyway I welcome opinions and explanations, thank you.

 

[Drakkith]

I'm no expert either, but it seems that it would be drastically safer to get the vaccine to avoid the worst of the disease since you have a good chance of catching it if unvaccinated anyways.

 

[Oldman too]

Admittedly I am searching for answers because I got neurological issues after my Pfizer vaccine that were very similar to those that I got after Covid.

Can you describe your neurological symptoms?

 

[Tom.G]

Admittedly I am searching for answers because I got neurological issues after my Pfizer vaccine that were very similar to those that I got after Covid. And it seems I'm not alone in this . 6 months in I'm still feeling them to an extent.

I ran across the same effect about 3 months after the 2nd dose of the Moderna vaccine.

It has been just over a year since the vaccine and the symptoms seem to be slowly worsening; mild confusion/logical thinking slightly imapired, trouble recalling Nouns - especially Proper nouns & names.

I started a detailed thread about a year ago on my side-effects, can't find it now, more later --- a neighbor just arrived with a special request.

Continued below, post #10 https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/6616582
Cheers,
Tom

 

[artis]

I'm no expert either, but it seems that it would be drastically safer to get the vaccine to avoid the worst of the disease since you have a good chance of catching it if unvaccinated anyways.

Well apart from lung inflammation etc, the neurological side effects have been far longer and more unpleasant from the vaccine so for me I'm not sure anymore about your statement truth be told.
I was good to go after 3 months after Covid. Now it's 6 months after my single shot Pfizer and it's still not okay. For all practical reasons I believe I was lied to about the safety of this medicine.

It has been just over a year since the vaccine and the symptoms seem to be slowly worsening; mild confusion/logical thinking slightly imapired, trouble recalling Nouns - especially Proper nouns & names.

Really? I thought you said you had some problems and then they went away?
But if this is the case then it wouldn't surprise me because my friend has exactly the same problem, and I have had it lately too. Sometimes I write a PF post and have to use google to remember the exact word I want to use. Never had that problem before.It would be nice if someone could comment on this issue,after all there are studies and certain conclusions made which weren't available some time ago so I think it is a worthy topic.

 

[Drakkith]

Well apart from lung inflammation etc, the neurological side effects have been far longer and more unpleasant from the vaccine so for me I'm not sure anymore about your statement truth be told.

Forgive me, but this sounds like survivorship bias. The vast majority of unvaccinated people who either died or who have severe long term damage to their bodies from Covid-19 infection would have been better off risking complications from the vaccine versus getting infected.

For all practical reasons I believe I was lied to about the safety of this medicine.

Lying would require that the medical community know about the long term complications of the vaccine. Which, obviously, requires time that we didn't have if we wanted to get a vaccine out of trials and into widespread use to combat the pandemic before most people had been infected.

It would be nice if someone could comment on this issue, despite the reluctance given this is a "taboo" topic.

Why would this be a taboo topic? Vaccine complications are widely known about and, as you've provided above, there appears to be legitimate research about the dangers of the spike protein. There's also research ongoing about long covid, which the spike protein may contribute to. Looks like normal science to me.

 

[artis]

Look @Drakkith I would more than love to engage in a lengthy discussion surrounding all things Covid, but given PF is very demanding..., let's not go there as I wish to keep this thread on track as much as possible.

Why would this be a taboo topic? Vaccine complications are widely known about and, as you've provided above, there appears to be legitimate research about the dangers of the spike protein.

Well , last autumn I tried to discuss this and implied that the Spike could be dangerous I got treated like this,
https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/spike-protein-stability-effects-etc.1007700/
Admittedly I was too emotional in that thread, but understandably since it was my health on the line...in the vaccine sideeffects topic (where I merely stated my symptoms) I got banned, some members ridiculed me rather openly, called me irresponsible etc.
But not just here, just half a year ago many did not want to hear anything about this, even some doctors I met, now the attitudes seem to change slowly.
Anyway in that locked thread everything else was suggested just to get me off from my suspicion. Now I have studies to back me up so I hope this thread will not get shut down.

Anyway I will do some more research to find even more studies, meanwhile maybe someone will come and comment or share insight as to the current state of affairs or provide constructive criticism.

 

[Tom.G]

(this post is also continuation of post 6 above

I thought you said you had some problems and then they went away?
But if this is the case then it wouldn't surprise me because my friend has exactly the same problem, and I have had it lately too

Yes, the problems of the first month after the 2nd shot seemed to go away. However, a few months later the new ones very gradually appeared.

I mentioned the mental problems to my Doctor at my annual check-up and the response was

edit:
Get out and socialize more, go a bar, see a play, get out in the World again.
(the fact that the above was left out, and this edit needed, sort of supports the concept of 'Long COVID', but also shows that extended social contact may be the root cause of some of the symptoms.)
He closed with;
essentially
/edit:

(paraphrased) "If the symptoms get 4 times worse we will do a 'question & answer' evaluation."

Reaction to the 3rd shot (booster, about 4 months ago, 8 months after second shot) was mild though (so far!).

Here is my original thread covering the 2nd dose and subsequent 110 days.
https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/6467772

Cheers,
Tom

 

[pinball1970]

Look @Drakkith I would more than love to engage in a lengthy discussion surrounding all things Covid, but given PF is very demanding..., let's not go there as I wish to keep this thread on track as much as possible.

Well , last autumn I tried to discuss this and implied that the Spike could be dangerous I got treated like this,
https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/spike-protein-stability-effects-etc.1007700/

I was good to go after 3 months after Covid. Now it's 6 months after my single shot Pfizer and it's still not okay. For all practical reasons I believe I was lied to about the safety of this medicine.

Were you not provided with the leaflet regarding side effects prior to the jab?

 

[Oldman too]

Reaction to the 3rd shot (booster, about 4 months ago, 8 months after second shot) was mild though (so far!).

I'll be going for my booster tomorrow, after my Mono-clonal fiasco in Jan. I had to wait on the booster.
Cheers, Scott

 

[artis]

Were you not provided with the leaflet regarding side effects prior to the jab?

I was, but the symptoms I had were not in there.
Many more have since been added to the official government drug side effects for Covid vaccine lists.
And given the full range of possible interactions of the Spike in human body are still being researched, including it's potential impacts on various organs, systems , like the studies I linked show , was it even possible to know the full scale of side effects a year and more ago when the first vaccines were given?...Now even though I did not have these symptoms and there are possibly other mechanisms on how they develop , here are two studies showing that the "Covid nail/toe" can also happen without prior infection but just after vaccination. This I think agrees with the conclusions from my previous linked studies that viral proteins like the Spike are biologically active and seem to independently (without the help of other virus proteins/parts) be able to cause certain damage via various routes.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33620081/

COVID toes can be encountered in young individuals during acute COVID-19 infection while it results from the direct action of Spike protein on vessels. We report the case of COVID toes during the French campaign of vaccination that occurred 4 days after the vaccination with the Pfizer-BioNTech mRNA vaccine against COVID-19.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8214806/

A 76-year-old man reported that 1 week after receiving his second dose of the Moderna mRNA COVID-19 vaccine, his toes became discolored

Immunoglobulin G antibody to SARS-CoV-2 nucleocapsid protein was negative whereas immunoglobulin G antibody to SARS-CoV-2 spike protein was positive, consistent with an immune response to vaccination but no prior infection.A rheumatology evaluation did not reveal any clinical or laboratory evidence of a systemic autoimmune disease or cutaneous vasculitis.

It is not clear whether vaccination with an mRNA or viral vector DNA COVID-19 vaccine that generates spike protein leads to systemic circulation of this protein ("spikemia"). It is conceivable that the immune response to the vaccine or circulation of spike protein could contribute to the development of these lesions after vaccination.

In the category of anecdotal evidence I can say one of my close relatives developed a similar symptom (probably the exact same) as mentioned in the studies after her vaccination. Her toe nail came off with a blue colored patch underneath. There was no trauma before nor she has any background medical condition that could have resulted in such outcome much like the subjects in the mentioned studies

 

[pinball1970]

I was, but the symptoms I had were not in there.. There was no trauma before nor she has any background medical condition that could have resulted in such outcome much like the subjects in the mentioned studies

Obviously I cannot tell you what went on with your immune system during this time (I do sympathize and these symptoms must have been/are unpleasant )

My understanding was you got Covid then was vaccinated after?

You had a condition prior to this also?

This is impossible to unravel in terms of your immune response prior to and after your Covid infection and Pfizer jab.

The vaccine is not 100% safe and no company have ever claimed that is the case, for any vaccine, drug or treatment/surgery.It comes down to choices and given the vaccine offers you protection from all the variants to some degree then the sensible choice was to have it.

I do not know what the kill rate was of DELTA (the variant I had most likely) around 2%? In the UK? 1 in 50 compared to 1/100,000 vaccine accident?

Even faced with the prospect of long lasting neurological condition we would surely chose this over death? Take our chances?

Just say the Pfizer jab has caused this, what next? What would it change for you?

Perhaps there is research that will yield some sort of treatment for it in the future?
On a final personal thing, a family member is an anti-vaxer (2nd cousin removed or something not close) in his 50s got covid.

6-7 months later according to his family, zero energy, cannot walk far, cannot work, I don’t know if he has other symptoms like yours.

He survived but It has changed his life, possibly for the remainder of his life? We will not know that but there does not seen to be any improvement.

So death is the worst thing that can happen but not the only thing.

UK data for vaccines is below, about 130 million doses and a chunk will be Pfizer, do you not think we would have wide spread issues in Europe and USA if there was a real issue with this vaccine?

Rather than isolated Covid toes?

What do you think?

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/vaccinations

 

[Drakkith]

Now even though I did not have these symptoms and there are possibly other mechanisms on how they develop , here are two studies showing that the "Covid nail/toe" can also happen without prior infection but just after vaccination. This I think agrees with the conclusions from my previous linked studies that viral proteins like the Spike are biologically active and seem to independently (without the help of other virus proteins/parts) be able to cause certain damage via various routes.

You're jumping the gun here. These articles are about a single case each who have lesions that are, to quote the first article you linked, compatible with the so-called “COVID toes”. Compatible, not 'caused by'.

Given the sheer number of vaccinations taking place it is inevitable that some people are going to develop various ailments just after vaccination that have nothing to do with the vaccine. It is entirely possible that both of the cases you linked are idiopathic in nature; that is, without a known cause. Both covid-toes and the lesions in the article have unknown causes and could be entirely unrelated to covid.

Neither of these articles should be used as evidence for or against anything by anyone except researchers who are aggregating cases together for use in a larger study. A sample size of 2 is useless for anything else.

In fact, here's an article directly refuting any connection between chillblains and covid-19:
This study delineated the clinical, histologic, and laboratory features of chilblain-like lesions that emerged during the COVID-19 pandemic, and its findings do not support their association with SARS-CoV-2 infection.

And another that casts doubt on any Covid-19 connection: Numerous of cases of chilblains have been observed, mainly in young subjects with no or mild symptoms compatible with COVID-19. The pathophysiology of these lesions is still widely debated and an association with SARS-CoV-2 infection remains unconfirmed.

And another that summarizes cases of "chilblain-like lesions (CLL)" and their association with covid-19, finding that only 15% of the 282 patients with CLL that were tested for Covid-19 were positive.

So no, your articles do not show that Covid-19 vaccines can cause covid-toe or anything else. They are merely presenting two cases where people developed lesions on their toes soon after vaccination.

 

[artis]

@pinball1970 I will answer your question in PM, because if I will do that here it will inevitably lead to the closure of this thread as many vaccine related matters are not just scientific and medical but even more so political.

You're jumping the gun here.

With all due respect so are you. I'll admit I cannot claim there is a certain unquestionable link so far between all the known side effects and Spike itself, but there is mounting evidence Spike is involved in various interaction mechanisms, none of them beneficial to the human body. These studies posted in my last post show just few examples but there have been many more reports. My main goal with these last studies was not to talk about "Covid nail" or even the established side effects like thrombosis etc.

My main goal with this thread is to understand how much of the Spike gets into circulation( that seems to have been answered by the studies I cited in my first post, at least for the Pfizer vaccine) and what effects can that have on health.

Given the sheer number of vaccinations taking place it is inevitable that some people are going to develop various ailments just after vaccination that have nothing to do with the vaccine.

Again I don't care for various ailments that anyone can develop. I care specifically for side effects that are due to vaccine and more specifically due to the spike protein itself and it's potential harmful effects, this was hinted at in the studies I posted in my post #3.
At this point it is not a matter of "if", it's a matter of when will we have conclusive evidence. There are large
enough number of reports of side effects and a large portion of them neurological and there are studies coming out now that show there is a high probability of a link between the two.
I will simply continue researching and post relevant studies, hopefully gaining some insight and commentary on the topic also here.

So no, your articles do not show that Covid-19 vaccines can cause covid-toe or anything else. They are merely presenting two cases where people developed lesions on their toes soon after vaccination.

I agree, I never said that all chilblains are a result of Covid or Spike, sure their not, just as Parkinson's disease has been around for a long time and has probably multiple factors that can contribute to it, but now we know from studies like those that I posted in my neighboring thread that it's also the Covid N protein that can be a serious factor for developing Parkinson's.
Neurological issues also have countless factors that can cause them, but if many previously healthy individuals all around the world claim they got them after their vaccine (taking into account those without previous Covid) then there might be a link. That link is what interests me.

On the other hand if you have a peer reviewed study that says that the Spike that gets into blood causes no damage whatsoever and "nothing to see here", please by all means provide a link to that.To recap this is what we know so far, to the best of my understanding.
1) Spike from Covid gets into blood, brain and elsewhere, it's interaction seems to be harmful in many ways most of which we are still investigating. There are numerous studies out now talking about this.
2) Some amount of Spike get into blood after vaccine, my cited study claims that for the Pfizer one the amount is on average comparable to that of real infection. (See post #1)

3) We have to wait to know fully whether the Spike (full length one) getting into blood after vaccine is harmless or is there possible unwanted interaction mechanisms. This is also what I wish to hear knowledgeable commentary on or studies if anyone has one.

 

[CoolMint]

Your neurological issues are much more likely due to an immune system over-reaction after vaccination than from spike proteins attaching to cell receptors and causing ace-2 activation(not sure if this receptor is even found in the brain).

Immune overreactions are common with both SARS viruses and sometimes, through less often, after vaccinations.
You can use curcumin to safely lower the inflammation caused by your own immune system. Curcumin is a very powerful anti inflammatory herb. Acts in 30 minutes or less.

 

[Drakkith]

My main goal with these last studies was not to talk about "Covid nail" or even the established side effects like thrombosis etc.

Your goal was to use them as supporting evidence for your belief that the spike protein is harmful. The problem is that the studies are about a phenomenon that has no clear link to Covid at all, let alone the spike protein by itself. And let's not call these 'studies'. These were case reports. A study would be a comparison between groups of participants. Case reports should never be used as evidence for something unless there is a clear cause and effect that no one would disagree with.

Again I don't care for various ailments that anyone can develop. I care specifically for side effects that are due to vaccine and more specifically due to the spike protein itself and it's potential harmful effects, this was hinted at in the studies I posted in my post #3.

That's fine, but you have provided no evidence for this in any of your references. At best all you can say is that the spike protein MIGHT be harmful.

At this point it is not a matter of "if", it's a matter of when will we have conclusive evidence.

Respectfully, you cannot claim that we will soon have conclusive evidence of something without first having that conclusive evidence! Imagine investigators appearing in front of a judge for a warrant saying, "No your honor, we don't have the evidence needed for this warrant, but we know that if we get the warrant we'll get the evidence we need for it." It would be illegal for that judge to issue a warrant!

This way of thinking is exactly why the idea that someone should 'do their own research' is doomed to failure in almost every case. So far you've exaggerated or misunderstood the findings in several of your links, provided several references that were VERY poor quality and that I was able to find counter-evidence for with just a few minutes of googling, and shown, again, that you're far too biased to do proper research.

And to be clear, I'm in a similar circumstance. I suffer from some sort of fatigue disorder that might be chronic fatigue syndrome. It has no clear mechanism and no known effective treatments. I could spend my time looking at various studies and try to piece things together myself but I'm not a researcher, a doctor, or anyone who knows enough about the topic to do proper research. So I choose to spend my time doing other things, not pouring through studies that are inconclusive and hard to understand.

 

[Oldman too]

So I choose to spend my time doing other things, not pouring through studies that are inconclusive and hard to understand.

That sums things up nicely.

 

[Tom.G]

I'm in a similar circumstance. I suffer from some sort of fatigue disorder that might be chronic fatigue syndrome. It has no clear mechanism and no known effective treatments.

You might find this post / thread worth reading:
https://www.physicsforums.com/posts/6421469

 

[Tom.G]

@Drakkith

You may also find these to be of interest:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23384445

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24888394

(this one may have been referenced earlier in the thread, I've lost track)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4367209/

Cheers,
Tom