Students' Complaint Gets Prof Fired

[gleem]

Students at NYU complaining about a well know chemistry professor's grading and his alledged unavailability caused the NYU administration not to renew his contract. Read about it here. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/03/us/nyu-organic-chemistry-petition.html Apparently this is a premed service course.

In their petition enumerating complaints besides saying the course was too hard, they also said:

“We are very concerned about our scores, and find that they are not an accurate reflection of the time and effort put into this class,” the petition said.

I don't recall having been given credit for our time and effort or even asked about it. Oh! they tried, and trying counts, doesn't it?

I'm going to make sure any phsycian that I use is at least forty maybe fifty years old.

 

[DaveC426913]

It's behind a passwall so I can't read it, but:

I did not interpret the students' comment "...[scores] are not an accurate reflection of the time and effort put into this class" as meaning what you thought, to-wit: "given credit for [their] time and effort".

i.e. It seems like you're closely coupling effort > score.

I think they're saying their time and effort lead to excellent results, which were not reflected in their scores.

i.e.: effort > results > score.

 

[Lnewqban]

Could they refer to the insufficient “time and effort put into this class” by the professor?
Based on that, the students should have had a poorer performance.

 

[berkeman]

It's behind a passwall so I can't read it

Here is a CNN article about the same situation, I think:

https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/04/opin...fessor-student-complaint-filipovic/index.html

 

[DaveC426913]

In high school (1982), my class got our erstwhile math teacher boosted from teaching when we, as one, complained to the principal.

It's been so long though, I can't remember exactly in what way he was incompetent.

(I do remember one of his quirks was how proud he was to get every 40 question test onto a single sheet of paper by drawing corrals around each question and writing microscopically. But that was just a symptom of his peccadilloes).

 

[PeroK]

In high school (1982), my class got our erstwhile math teacher boosted from teaching when we, as one, complained to the principal.

It's been so long though, I can't remember exactly in what way he was incompetent.

(I do remember one of his quirks was how proud he was to get every 40 question test onto a single sheet of paper by drawing corrals around each question and writing microscopically. But that was just a symptom of his peccadilloes).

Those were the days!

 

[kyphysics]

I think it's too hard to evaluate unless one is familiar with organic chemistry and also this specific professor's standards.

Reading the CNN piece feels like a bunch of he said/she said.

 

[kyphysics]

I also think the CNN author infers way too much. It's as if she's importing into this situation some interpretive framework/template that may or may not fit the specifics of this case.

 

[BillTre]

Apparently this is a premed service course.

In my undergraduate experience, premeds as a group can be quite insufferable (complain a lot).
Some of them are really good in many ways!

However, as a population, there seems to have been a selection for people who are very score and money oriented and not always very study or knowledge oriented.
Many departments with lots of premed students have massive courses to "weed" out the less good students in the first year.

 

[gleem]

I think they're saying their time and effort lead to excellent results, which were not reflected in their scores.

That is the way I read it. However, time and effort do not necessarily result in good scores, but time and effort are usually necessary. IMO if their time and effort did not result in good scores then they did not put enough time and effort into the course.

 

[kyphysics]

However, as a population, there seems to have been a selection for people who are very score and money oriented and not always very study or knowledge oriented.

It's hard to say whether this is what happened here in my opinion.

Maybe the students had a legitimate gripe and this professor sucked at teaching and had wayyyy too unreasonable tests.

Or, maybe, the students were whiney and unreasonable in what should have been expected of them.

Or, it could have been something in between. I guess I feel like there's not enough information to say a whole lot.

 

[fresh_42]

It wouldn't surprise me if this was the direct consequence of a few daddys' money.

Who pays the professor's post?
What is the total net worth of these students: fees + donations?
How many of them belong to the establishment, old money nobility?

Do those articles answer these questions?

 

[fresh_42]

In the field of organic chemistry, ...

As if I hadn't guessed!

 

[topsquark]

Students at NYU complaining about a well know chemistry professor's grading and his alledged unavailability

Maybe this guy was extreme but he sounds like a number of my graduate Physics professors. Sometimes you just have to live with the situation and work your @$$ off to get decent grades.

-Dan

 

[Mondayman]

I was only in school for a brief few years, but it was a near constant to be around students who were complaining about some prof or another. It was never their own fault, especially if the prof didn't round their score up from 48.3% to 50%.

I'm seeing similar scenarios at work. I'm meeting people who will complain, quit/get fired, and write a rotten review on Glassdoor or Indeed, all because they were asked to put their phone away and do their basic duties.

 

[BillTre]

Here is a NY Times opinion piece on this.

It takes a different approach to the issues, looking at it as financial and bureaucratic issues for the university, as well as the kind of people used to teach certain kinds of courses.

Jones taught organic chemistry as a contingent (or adjunct) faculty member at a private university. The majority of higher education professors are now contingent, meaning that they do not get the protections of tenure. This is true even at highly selective institutions like N.Y.U. Generally speaking, contingent faculty members are low paid and low status. That combination can make contingent professors very vulnerable. When teaching contracts are fungible, administrators rely more heavily on student evaluations than they do peer evaluations. Even if the administrators do not weigh student evaluations in judging professors’ performance, it is easy to see how contingent faculty members could construe them as a kind of up-or-down vote. Student satisfaction is an easy metric for the university to use to measure success, if only because, by definition, it means professors are not causing bureaucratic headaches for higher-ups.

 

[gleem]

Since the CNN review was lacking, I have gone back to the original NY Times article pulling out the many salient points. Any things in parentheses are my thoughts.

Maitland Jones Jr. was a well-respected Princeton chemistry professor and author of a widely used text in its 5th edition who retired but took an adjunct teaching position at NYU in 2007. (note this year)​

​

In the spring 82 of 350 organic chemistry students filed a complaint with the administration about his attitude and dissatisfaction with their grades. (This course is probably a service course with many premed students)​

​

To try and pacify the students the administration offered the students to review their grades and permit them to withdraw retroactively. This appeasement was seen by one chemistry colleague as focusing on the bottom line of the institution so students would continue to say great things about the school helping to keep the rankings high.​

​

Dr. Jones is noted for his instruction method of deemphasizing memorization in favor of problem-solving.​

​

In about 2012 being interviewed, He said that he noticed a lack of focus among students also noting that more students were premed.​

​

He wrote in a grievance to the university, protesting his termination.“Students were misreading exam questions at an astonishing rate,” Grades fell even as he reduced the difficulty of his exams.​

​

The problem was exacerbated by the pandemic, he said. “In the last two years, they fell off a cliff,” he wrote. “We now see single-digit scores and even zeros.”.According to Jones COVID caused years of learning loss, resulting in students not seeming how to study.​

​

During the pandemic, Jones with two other professors taped lectures. He paid over $5000 out of his pocket for videos that are still used by the university.​

​

In 2020 30 students out of 475 filed a petition for more help. Jones noted that they were struggling, Noting poor internet coverage among other things. He tried to ease the students' concerns in an online town hall meeting. Cheating was also becoming a problem.​

​

Grades fell because of egregious conduct (I do not know the significance of this statement). Jones said they protested saying “they were not given grades that would allow them to get into medical school.” Jones noted they weren't coming to class (I inferred that classes resumed), they weren't watching the videos, and couldn't answer the (test?) question​

​

Students were allowed to choose between the traditional lecture and the problem-solving one. Students were known to share problems on GroupMe chat but began complaining about the class. This may have initiated the petition. “We are very concerned about our scores, and find that they are not an accurate reflection of the time and effort put into this class,” the petition said. They complained about a reduction in mid-term exams from three to two, the concealment of course averages, lack of extra credit, and the removal of his lectures from Zoom (?). They also complained of a "condescending and demanding" tone.​

​

Of these accusations, Dr. Jones said in an interview; “that he reduced the number of exams because the university scheduled the first test date after six classes, which was too soon.​

​

On the accusation that he concealed course averages, Dr. Jones said that they were impossible to provide because 25 percent of the grade relied on lab scores and a final lab test, but that students were otherwise aware of their grades.​

​

As for Zoom access, he said the technology in the lecture hall made it impossible to record his whiteboard problems.”​

​

The petition that the student filed included the following.​

​

“We urge you to realize,” the petition said, “that a class with such a high percentage of withdrawals and low grades has failed to make students’ learning and well-being a priority and reflects poorly on the chemistry department as well as the institution as a whole.”​

​

A former teaching assistant of Dr. Jones noted that he thought the petition was more about exam scores noting that many who complained did not use the available resources. A former student said that Dr. Jones was likable and inspiring. Other students said he was excited to help students who asked questions but was also "sarcastic and downbeat" about the class's performance.​

​

A former chemistry department head admired his course content and teaching method but noted that his communication with students was "skeletal" and sometimes " harsh". He also noted that Dr. Jones's style or methods had not changed in many years but students have, "expecting more support(?) from faculty when they are struggling"​

​

A university spokesman said that the university is evaluating what is known as "stumble courses”. which have a high percentage of D's and F's noting that organic chemistry is one of them. He also said “Do these courses really need to be punitive in order to be rigorous?” (Punitive?)​

​

In his termination notice it was stated that his performance “did not rise to the standards we require from our teaching faculty.”​

​

Faculty in the chemistry department have protested about “a precedent, completely lacking in due process, that could undermine faculty freedoms and correspondingly enfeeble proven pedagogic practices.” and may deter rigorous instruction, particularly noting the increasing tendency of the students to complain.​

​

Dr. Jones said he did not want his job back since he was planning to retire.​

 

[fresh_42]

I still think that NYU has issues with its "celebrity students":
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2011/dec/20/james-franco-lawsuit-nyu-professor

 

[hutchphd]

Check this out
https://arstechnica.com/science/202...get-fired-because-students-hate-organic-chem/

 

[berkeman]

Check this out
https://arstechnica.com/science/202...get-fired-because-students-hate-organic-chem/

Very nice intelligent article, IMO. Thanks for finding it and posting it.

As for non-pandemic issues, any problems with the campus environment or Jones' teaching were critically enhanced by the fact that he was teaching a course that our education system uses as a barrier to keep some people out of the medical field. Organic chemistry is not just one of "lots of hard courses," as the NYU spokesperson put it; it's a class that poses perhaps the largest barrier that stands between some students and their dreams. Given that, anyone in Jones' position is always going to be very unpopular with some students.

 

[gleem]

I wrote the following below before @hutchphd post' Instituting a chemistry course just for premed seems reasonable the same for the required physics course. Today hospitals hire D.Pharm's to review drug prescriptions since physicians cannot keep up with the variety of drugs and their interactions. But no matter only a fraction of those who dream of a medical career will achieve it.The question that prospective med students should ask themselves is if they cannot hack undergraduate courses or are not given the support they need to succeed, do they think med schools curriculum will be as easy or that med school will bend over backward to support them in their hours of need after they ante up another $50K or more?

In addition, the average acceptance rate for med schools is supposed to be about 7%. Acceptance^* assumes at least a 3.3 GPA (median was 3.77 in 2021), upper 20 percentile in the MCAT, excellent letters of recommendation, personal statement, interview, fruitful research experience, sufficient community service history as well as some actual clinical experience to show you what the profession is all about.

If one has a problem with organic chemistry, they still need biochemistry. Is that easier? I get the feeling that some of these students who have participated in the petition have only set up themselves for ultimate failure not recognizing that they do not have the right stuff for med school. They do not know themselves well enough to recognize this occupying themselves with the delusion that the system is against them.
* Requirements from:
https://www.usnews.com/education/best-graduate-schools/top-medical-schools/articles/how-to-make-sure-you-fulfill-medical-school-requirements-for-admission

 

[BillTre]

I have heard that:

1. Once in med schools (having gone through all the selective process you described) the schools try hard to not flunk out the students.
2. There are schools with less stringent admission standards (perhaps for a price).
3. Being a zoology major (they didn't have biology majors where I was an undergraduate for some reason), I found biochem to be a lot more interesting and fun. It connected much better with the living aspects of things, which is where my motivating interests were. This was not really done in the chemistry classes I had.

 

[erobz]

I read he was 84. Why do academics want to work so long!

Anyhow, this kind of stuff is not new as far as I know? Fail too many of the student body, and get reprimanded. It happened to multiple professors where I attended college over a decade ago. Many people are just passed though the system so universities can collect a check, regardless of whether or not it was earned. My Diff Eq professor became upset with me for not using notes on the exams! I remember thinking how strange that was…I was an adult at the time. The younger student body were like “notes on the exams, old tests…yes please!". I was upset that the prof assumed I couldn’t pass without them. Paying for a chance to learn is a thing of the past. The “learning” is just a barrier to large potential earnings that most would just rather bypass to get to the green-on both sides.

Down with merit-based grades they shout! Just give us degrees!

Welcome my son…to the machine.

 

[jtbell]

In my undergraduate experience, premeds as a group can be quite insufferable (complain a lot).

In my first teaching job after grad school, nearly 40 years ago, a pre-med complained to the college administration about me because I had given her only an A- or a B+ (instead of an A) in my introductory physics course (Halliday/Resnick level). Fortunately the administration backed me up.

 

[Rive]

Just remembered to an old topic

I get the feeling that some of these students who have participated in the petition have only set up themselves for ultimate failure not recognizing that they do not have the right stuff for med school.

What worked once might work for the second time too...

They do not know themselves well enough to recognize this occupying themselves with the delusion that the system is against them.

There seems to be some spreading delusions regarding teaching and learning, leading to complicated beliefs about the necessity of work invested, and in favour of ... creativity or something replacing it...
Could not managed to figure out how this is supposed to work.

 

[erobz]

Another thing to consider. People don't like jumping through hoops. Is O-Chem a necessity or a weed killer... What percentage of practicing medical doctors use the full exploration of Organic Chemistry daily to perform their job?

 

[hutchphd]

Fifty years ago when I was an undergrad, Cornell offered a one semester organic course primarily for premeds. Unfortunately it was all that would fit into my schedule. Actually it was a good course except that it was populated by premeds. The difference between that student populace and what I was used to in physics courses was palpable. It was a weed killer because there were a lot of weeds IMHO. Unfortunately I am not sure it was an appropriately specific agent. but that is a different question.

 

[gmax137]

When I was in school, I thought organic chem sounded like a really interesting course. The labs (all that glassware!) I had pre-med friends who had to take it, and they all hated it. I saw them spending hours memorizing chemical names and whatnot, very unappealing. I decided not to take it. Too bad there wasn't an "orgo for physics majors."

Dr. Jones said he did not want his job back since he was planning to retire.

Seems like a wise decision. I'm sure he will be happier without facing criticism for doing his job. A job he probably loved until recently.

 

[Office_Shredder]

https://www.exercise-science-guide.com/pre-health/notorious-and-necessary-organic-chemistry/

Gives an interesting observation. Organic chemistry is, for whatever reason, the only hard class required for med school applications, so it's the easiest way to compare people. Also, the general combination of memorizing a lot of stuff and applying knowledge to understand how new things will combine is similar to what you do in med school, even if the actual chemistry itself is irrelevant. I buy it. Obviously there's room for improvement but it seems like the onus is on the complainer to propose a better solution.

 

[pinball1970]

Less than a quarter of the class signed the petition. Perhaps there were more Historical issues.
If the majority of the class, over 75% either passed OR did not do well but accepted the results and their performance rather than your methods would you be satisfied as a tutor?

 

[gleem]

A study determined that of premed students entering university less than 17% graduated to apply to med school. According to other data from the web, of those who graduated and applied, around 50,000 to about 150 med schools each year, about 40% were accepted. The average acceptance rate is about 7 - 10% depending on the year. Kaiser-Permanente had the lowest acceptance rate of 1.1%. So there are some schools that have relatively high acceptance rates. Premed students apply to an average of 18 schools.
The number of Doctors of Osteopathic Medicine currently comprises 25% of med school grads. These are grouped with MD in any stat relating to physicians.

Another thing to consider. People don't like jumping through hoops. Is O-Chem a necessity or a weed killer... What percentage of practicing medical doctors use the full exploration of Organic Chemistry daily to perform their job?

Do some get cut that might have been outstanding physicians probably. Are some let it who shouldn't again probably. Whether it is a course, the way they dress, answer a question, history of community service, or whatever there will be a less-than-perfect method of selecting future physicians. There will always be hoops.

If Dr. Jones was a professor in his prime, IMO it would have been a greater injustice to remove him denying a greater number of students the benefit of his teaching.

 

[vela]

What percentage of practicing medical doctors use the full exploration of Organic Chemistry daily to perform their job?

You can ask the same question about almost every class and make an argument that pre-med students shouldn't have to take it because doctors will never need it for their day-to-day work. Do they really need general chemistry? What about calculus? Or statistics?

 

[erobz]

You can ask the same objection about almost every class and make an argument that pre-med students shouldn't have to take it because doctors will never need it for their day-to-day work. Do they really need general chemistry? What about calculus? Or statistics?

I was only playing devil's advocate. I don't think he should have been removed for being tough, but I do think he should have removed himself long before 84 years of age.

What I'm asking is O-Chem for a doctor like Calculus/Physics to an Engineer... I somehow doubt it. I would feel kind of displeased if my evaluation to enter into engineering was based off of my performance in History or English Literature ( common hoops that engineers must jump through).

 

[gleem]

I don't think he should have been removed for being tough, but I do think he should have removed himself long before 84 years of age.

OK, I would love to hear your rationale for this statement.

 

[erobz]

It’s just my opinion. The average life expectancy of males in the US is 74. What age do professors usually retire? Work till you die if you want, but don’t tell me being that age doesn’t slow you down. I’ve had professors in the 70s, they were less than energetic... and that is a problem.