Tattoo machine electromagnetics

[eviltattooz]

although the adjustment of speed can surely be made by increasing/decreasing voltage and capacitor resistance. different stages of any given tattoo calls for mechanical changes in the machine to increase/decrease force. this is directly related to the mechanical set-up (stroke length, spring compression) which enables the delivery of pigment to the dermis to be delivered in vastly different ways. more elastic parts of the human body will require more/less force depending on the elasticity of the skin, and needle groupings which penetrate the skin are anywhere fron single needles-to groups of 25 or more in both round and flat configurations. you need more of an impact with a higher grouping in order to penetrate efficiently and without doing damage to the skin. and/or not having enough force to dye the dermis permenantly. as all (if not 98%) of all tattoos reqiure different stages of work to be completed -i.e., lining the design, shading, coloring in. which require different needle groupings. (you wouldn't make a painting with a single paintbrush, youd have thin ones, thick ones, broad ones etc.) So as speed can succesfully be changed on a machine through electrical changes and without mechanical adjustment, the relation of any particular machine to the TATTOOING PROCESS- is dependent on BOTH the electrical, and physical properties of the machine being used for that very specific task and the variables that go into it. (needle group, pigment consistency). Most reputable tattoo machine builders are very experienced in the machining of all the materials used, as well as the electrical properties of the machine they are building, and are building each one for a specific use in the field. true tattoo machine builders are craftsmen as are volin makers and watch makers. i know this is an old thread, but to help the last guy who posted here, buy quality equiptment and parts from serious machine builders, tinker,.. and experience the magic and mystery that is the tattoo machine, more coil=more voltage required= more stored power=more force and less magnetic dissipation,--- less coil=less voltage=less stored power=faster dissipation. each has its advantages and disadvantages and can be manipulated with mechanical changes and electrical changes combined- but the puzzle doesn't go together without every piece...now go have fun

 

[youfourian]

cool!

It's good to see that someone finally replied. Thanks for the info evil, I'm still at it, but have come a long way. I have the MACHINEGUN magazines and some machine parts from Eikon, a bunch of other info including the Godoy brother machine secrets, and have built 4 machines. I have a flyweight liner, a regular liner, a shader and a coloring machine. All different set ups and almost ready for use. I am saving for an EMS-200 before I bring them around to the shops for sale. My current new HY3005D "lab" PSU (copy of an instec) is erratic and the machines fluctuate while running.
The flyweight has 7 layer AWG 24 coils, 10uF cap, lightweight low lift a-bar, .017 main, cutback .015 timing springs. It's an aluminum Kaplan frame made for 1 and tight 3 liner needles.
The regular liner has 8 layer AWG 23 coils, 22uF cap, standard conventional a-bar, .018 main, .018 timing springs. It's an I.T.S. brass "V" frame made for 3 to 7 liner needles.
The shader has 8 layer AWG 23 coils, 47uF cap, standard conventional a-bar, .018 main, .017 timing springs. It's an I.T.S. brass "Luna" frame made to hit soft but fast, not machine speed fast, needle velocity fast.
The color machine has 11 layer front, 9 layer rear AWG 24 coils, heavy weight high lift a-bar, .017 main, .016 timing springs. It's a Unimax Jaws "Black Iron" frame for packing solid color.
I wound all coils myself and hand built them all from the frame up. All a-bars hit front coils flat and true and rear coils are just a paper's thickness away and I used all iron yokes and steel screws and washers/shims. I lined all my solder lugs with copper flashing and all binding posts are brass with silver contact screws. They all dry run smooth with needle on machine, but i have not tested them. I am not ready for tattooing yet so I'm going to see if local artists are interested in trying/buying them and giving me a review. Next I will try getting some frames machined up and building more.
I am still interested in more information on how core mass and/or surface area affect the magnetic field and also how wire gauge and capacitance affect the flow of power in the electrical system. I'm still also trying to figure out the frequency synchronization variables, although the machines do run pretty sweet, at least dry. Any knowledgeable input on this would be great.
Thanks.

 

[resonanteye]

I've been a professional tattoo artist for over a decade, and I believe that while you have some decent ideas as far as capacitor use and all that, you are missing the fact thhat most of the "mechanical adjustments" are done by how the artist manipulates the skin while tattooing. This is learned by experience and by hands-on apprenticeship or tutoring, and is one of the reasons that learning from another artist is the approved and safest way to get involved in tattooing.

While the machine's force and physics do make a difference to the end product, there is no way to make a machine that will mechanically adjust precisely enough to account for variations in skin surface, texture, and tone on a microscopic level, which is what an experienced tattoo artist does while working, manually, by adjusting their stretch and hand positions.

If you want a real project, start working on light rechargable batteries, and build us a wireless cordless tattoo machine. I'd be glad to give you any information that would help that project along, by the way.

But as far as building a tattoo machine which involves adjusting the mechanism as you go, you are barking up the wrong tree.

 

[youfourian]

If you want a real project, start working on light rechargable batteries, and build us a wireless cordless tattoo machine. I'd be glad to give you any information that would help that project along, by the way.

Funny,

most of the "mechanical adjustments" are done by how the artist manipulates the skin while tattooing.

While the machine's force and physics do make a difference to the end product, there is no way to make a machine that will mechanically adjust precisely enough to account for variations in skin surface, texture, and tone on a microscopic level, which is what an experienced tattoo artist does while working, manually, by adjusting their stretch and hand positions.

thanks for the info!

 

[resonanteye]

Yeah, anytime! You can email me if you have any questions, too.

 

[eviltattooz]

Great job on the builds man. I wouldn't get too caught up in the machine gun mags though. they do provide some basic information on the relationship between machine systems and ways to manipulate speed through spring gauge capacitance etc. Its a whole different ball game when youre working in the skin. I would def suggest you frequent a few local shops til you find some kind, professional artists who can "test drive" a few for the day. you will get some great feedback as to how they are penetrating and maybe even a sale.
To try to answer some of your questions, I am not a physicist, so i can't help you on frequency variables etc. (although i assume an ossiliscope may help.)
Even a perfectly tuned machines speed will have minor flucuations in speed and duty. its a delicate balance between contact points and spring vibrations. so anything under 3hz+/- at fixed voltage is very well intune. you should try to insure that as voltage goes up, speed stays fairly the same +/- 5 hz at a 2v power increase. just stroke power increases. larger Core mass will have a dramatic effect on required voltage, but will have a stronger pull at running volts. this is both a positive and negative. wire gauge is also going to be relative to the amount of wraps and core mass. Capacitance is ALWAYS relative to a particular machine I am building. not always big cap/shader small cap/liner. I am running shaders with 22uf right now. so don't get caught up in the numbers. Again, its a balance betwen everything. Frame Geometry is really the number 1 factor to me and how/what I am building. you will find this out for sure.
The best thing you can do right now is buy two identical frames/coils, at least 4 sets of just 18 gauge springs and a STANDARD A-BAR (not tru-spring), a few caps, and build both a fast liner and slow shader from the same components with both machines running real smooth, proper liner/shader gaps, and a minimal voltage difference to power each. +/- 1.5V this will truly give you a better understanding of the machine. you will def. need a few sets of 18g springs because its going to be a trial and error process. Do this right away.
A meter, although not essential is a great tool and will provide you with very accurate readings(but remember, minor fluctuations are normal) the ems200 is worth twice the money.
you will eventually get a feel for how the machine is running strictly through sound and feel. now go drop a machine off and get some working feedback........

 

[KSM74]

I've been a professional tattoo artist for over a decade, and I believe that while you have some decent ideas as far as capacitor use and all that, you are missing the fact thhat most of the "mechanical adjustments" are done by how the artist manipulates the skin while tattooing. This is learned by experience and by hands-on apprenticeship or tutoring, and is one of the reasons that learning from another artist is the approved and safest way to get involved in tattooing.

While the machine's force and physics do make a difference to the end product, there is no way to make a machine that will mechanically adjust precisely enough to account for variations in skin surface, texture, and tone on a microscopic level, which is what an experienced tattoo artist does while working, manually, by adjusting their stretch and hand positions.

If you want a real project, start working on light rechargable batteries, and build us a wireless cordless tattoo machine. I'd be glad to give you any information that would help that project along, by the way.

But as far as building a tattoo machine which involves adjusting the mechanism as you go, you are barking up the wrong tree.

Helo to all, I am new here. Good posting here.
I am also a professional body modification artist. I also have some experience with mechanical and electrical applications.

I agree with resonanteye. Adjustments are constantly being made during the tattoo process. There is no such thing as a machine that can auto-compensate for these adjustments. I just takes human skill.

I am however working on the wireless machine problem. I'll take any helpfull input, and will post my progress here as I go. To be honest, I don't think that battery technology is advanced enough yet to compensate for the constant high drain the machines require. (at least not on a hand-held scale that would not interfere with the weight of the machine, which is very important!) My research has led me to believe you would constantly be recharging the battery.

 

[Phaedrus]

Time to update this I guess...

Thanks Resonant...but you've missed the point I believe. The object was not to create something that would adjust while working...but more so that you could change the speed on the fly...manually...without having to switch machines. ( Yeah I know I'm always manipulating the skin for whatever ...but you still change machines for faster/slower, etc)

Using a 555 ic timer one could dial in a speed anywhere from 1 per second to whatever the limits of the timer, springs and machine frame geometry allow...mostly to dial into the resonance of the springs function.
Anyway the original question years ago was how does a cap. function in a DC tank circuit? And though that was answered early on in the thread I didn't really see how it worked out until recently.

Anyway...I took the path to see where the 555ic chip would lead. Managed to build a machine that would run and the speed was adjustable with a volume knob while maintaining the same voltage out of the power supply. It was a crazy looking thing with a circuit board full of wires for all the leads off of the chip...even tried diodes here and there... In the end I gave it up as once it was built I came to an understanding that led me in a new direction.
I still have it all in a box and I would probably have to reteach myself the timer circuit to get it to run again.

Anyway...now I concern myself with superior magnetics. I found a place to get ultra low carbon iron cores...I make frames from 1018c soft iron which yokes the coils...and primarily concentrate on coil construction and springs using a hybrid frame geometry. What I've come up with is coils with less than 1/2 of the resistance and twice the inductance at about 1/2 the voltage. (Which come to think of it may be a stepping stone to achieving something that can run on rechargeable batteries...hmmm.)
Today I was using a machine to pack tribal with a 15 magnum at about 3.8-4 volts...(experienced artists will know this to be pretty cool) It was a long throw machine hitting hard at about 95 Hz. The same speed and power on my $250 machine from a world famous builder would require 8+v DC to do the same job. Which is fine...unless I can create/find a market for low voltage machines...

gotta go...more later.

 

[sinkin'ink13]

I just stumbled across this page looking for info on hand wrapping my own coils. I've only been tattooing for a few years now but am very interested in the building aspect. I would love some pointers on local places where I'd find some of the supplies I'll need (24-26 gauge wire, the low carbon steel rod, etc.). Also advice on what to insulate the rod with. I've completely disassembled and rebuilt all of my machines but would love to start making my own parts, and eventually as far as small scale molding frames. One last thing is that I've talked to a few older tattooers that swear by big coils (10, 12 wrap) for their liners, but most builders now tend to set up liners with 8 wraps. Any thoughts on the situation or personal opinions? Looking forward to chatting with other people that are actually into the mechanics... Cheers!

 

[despair33]

Hello, New to this forum, thanks for having me. I have been researching electromagnetics to better understand the workings of the tools of my trade (tattoo artist) and have come upon a number of questions and cannot seem to find the answers. I would appreciate any help to point me in the right direction. This will be my first question.
A tattoo machine is basically a dc circuit containing two magnetic coils in series with a capacitor in parallel which operate an armature on a spring contact. Think doorbell. The capacitor is basically there to suppress the spark generated by the rapid collapse of the magnetic field as it switches itself on and off. My question at this point (I will have more concerning magnetics later) is...why does changing the value of the capacitor cause the machine to run faster for smaller and slower for larger values of capatance. As I understand it the energy created by the collapse of the magnetic field (since dc will not go through a cap.) is kind of sloshed back and forth through the coils until it is reduced to zero by the resistance. Why would the speed of the armature be related to the speed at which the cap. discharges this energy back and forth. Thanks

my guess would be that the armature is part of the machines circuitry mechinisms, without it the circuit would not closed. the lighter the armature the less resistance and that would inturn make the machine run faster! the armature is a resonate which drops at the moment the magnetic field collapses.

 

[despair33]

I just stumbled across this page looking for info on hand wrapping my own coils. I've only been tattooing for a few years now but am very interested in the building aspect. I would love some pointers on local places where I'd find some of the supplies I'll need (24-26 gauge wire, the low carbon steel rod, etc.). Also advice on what to insulate the rod with. I've completely disassembled and rebuilt all of my machines but would love to start making my own parts, and eventually as far as small scale molding frames. One last thing is that I've talked to a few older tattooers that swear by big coils (10, 12 wrap) for their liners, but most builders now tend to set up liners with 8 wraps. Any thoughts on the situation or personal opinions? Looking forward to chatting with other people that are actually into the mechanics... Cheers!

If you want to find a place to get your supplies!? check your local mom and pop hardware stores that's were I have found all my materials(metal for making frames,copper wire). The iron cores I bought from ebay! but they come carbon coated and you must sand that of to be able to create the magnetic field. as An insulater a plastic spool, sort of like a sowing machine thred spool. if you buy wire for your coils? check to see if it is coated or not , if it is coated its already insulated. Coils 8wrap don't have much life exp. the bigger the coil the faster and more eff. it will be. I have been tatting for about 9yrs. just started a month ago building my own. and I am also working on getting a patent for a tip I have designed that has less splatter,less mess and most important less waste of ink! please keep in touch I am into the whole aspect of it all! later!

 

[shurumi]

I am also a tattoo artist...
I could care less the physics involved...although I do have a basic understanding...

as an artist interested in perfection - i seek an answer to a question in which no one has ever asked and no one seems to have an answer for...

The power to a tattoo machine can be adjusted ...
i can adjust the amperage & voltage with my Mastech HY1803D-S lab power supply...
(max 3 amps @ 18 volts)

My question is this (considering a 10 wrap coil at this time)

if i can adjust the machine by sound - than it is the frequency that I hear that i am adjusting to...

Since i am a perfectionist - this is not enough for me...

I want the coil to run at it's optimum ...
but - since every needle has a slightly different weight ...
I want to adjust the machine to operate at no more than the coil operating Efficiency...

i need an equation to determine the mathematical voltage & amperage that I should be running at for each needle size & shape...

I can provide weights of needles & dimensions of coils if required

 

[shurumi]

There is one other parameter that you have not mentioned that should/could have significant effect on the operation.

The time perior over which the points are closed.

If they are not closed long enough you will not get sufficent kick, if they are closed to long the source current will fight the natural frequency disrupting motion.

Just another knob for you to tweak!

I have found the governing equations for a impulse driven harmonic oscillator, am looking at them to see if a simulation can easily be created. Might be fun to play with.

if i am correct ... there is no knob involved with this adjustment

adjusting the contact point is the done at the top (width of nickel) and at the coil (width of dime)
your spring needs to be replaced if you cannot achieve these adjustments

 

[shurumi]

Hi, I'm new to the site. I realize that I am digging up an old thread, but I am doing research on tattoo machine mechanics and this came up in Google. It is very interesting, so here I am. I don't have a lot of technical knowledge regarding any of the systems at work here, but I do have a general idea based on what I have been reading. I am fairly intuitive and can learn almost anything. I am fascinated with these machines and want to be able to build my own. I have done a few rebuilds and have run into some issues that I need some technical assistance with. I have a few different questions, but I'll try to work them out one at a time so I don't get any more confused.
The basic function of the machine is to place tattoo ink into the dermis of a person's skin. Different people have different skin and the required needle configurations differ as well which require different amounts of force to accomplish this. The machine must generate enough force to drive the needle configuration into where it needs to be. Also different skin types require different amounts of force and different depths of needle travel. The taper of the needle tips are also a factor. For example a single, long taper needle does not require much force to go into thin skin. On the other hand it takes much more force to drive 13 short taper needles into tough skin.
The electromagnets of the machine use electricity to create "pull" on the steel armature of the machine. The needle configuration is attached to this armature so as to move with it. The distance of travel, or stroke, is determined by; the bottom gap (space between the armature and the magnet surface) and the amount of front spring compression. A rear spring attached to the base frame of the machine applies force to the front spring and is used to counteract the magnetic pull. At rest, the front spring is compressed against the electrical contact completing an electrical circuit used to power the magnets. When you step on the foot switch and apply voltage to the circuit, the magnets pull the armature toward them releasing the front spring compression until the circuit is broken as the front spring leaves the contact point. The weight of the armature, the stiffness of the rear spring, the needle configuration, and skin type are all factors in how much pull is required.
My first question is how to maximize the efficiency of the voltage used to power the magnets. Standard magnets are made by taking a 1" or 1-1/4" lengths of 5/16" or 3/8" diameter 1018 low carbon steel rod, insulating it with a thin layer, putting ends on it to form a spool and winding 24 or 26 gauge magnet wire around it, 8 - 12 layers thick. I am currently planning on making my own coils and am hoping to get some insight into how to maximize the efficiency of the voltage in the coil. What effect the diameter and length of the steel and the gauge and length of wire have on how the electricity is used to create the magnetic pull?
Any comments on this are greatly appreciated

i was wrong...
someone else is asking the same question...

 

[bbaxter]

the capacitor's main function is to supply the electromagnetic coils with a charge after the front spring breaks contact opening the circut. without the cap. the machine requires more voltage to run at an equal frequency. the capacitance will determine how long the coils will remain "magnetic". the machine operates as such: in a relaxed position without dc voltage applied, the contact screw touches the front spring. the front spring "gives" as the back spring is pushing the armature bar/front spring assembly upward. when a given voltage is applied, the capacitor charges as the coils magnetise and START to pull the arm. bar downward. the front spring stays in contact with the contact screw for a fraction of the full movement, keeping the circut closed and the coils on. when the spring and screw break contact is when basic electronics theory says that the capacitor will discharge.

----------so the capacitor "helps" to pull the arm bar down with less voltage.
and the amount of capacitance will determine the duration of the "helping voltage".

i have not attended any major electronics classes other than the basic ones in high school. and i have been tattooing about 10 years. i would guess that about 80 percent of tattooists have no idea how their machines operate. i just happen to be a very inquisitive person by nature and like playing around with electronic components.
- i hope this will be read by someone and help
Branden at CrazyJoe Tattooing in Avon, NY

 

[bbaxter]

my thoughts on coil making: thinner gauge wire i think will generate a stronger magnetic force over the thicker wire with equal voltage applied. also the thinner wire will heat up at a lower voltage. I am not sure if there's a formula that would relate the size wire to magnetic pull with a give voltage and the level of heat generated as a result. maybe someone with a degree in magnetics could correct me if I am wrong. I THINK: the smaller core diameter will require less voltage to be applied if all other variables were consistant. the thicker core will generate a larger field. but would require more voltage to achieve the same amount of "pulling force". the larger core will "grab" a larger portion of the arm.bar, but will require a higher voltage, generating more heat. it may just be a personal preference: small cores with heavy wire or large cores with thin wire. try them both and expirament.

 

[gentleone444]

Theres something interesting I've noticed about my tattoo machines that may relate to this thread. The armature bar on some of my machines looks funny when it is running...its hard to explain...kind of comparable to maybe how a guitar string looks when it is vibrating...kind of wavy...it makes me think that when the electrical and mechanical circuits are oscillating, or are in harmony, there will be some kind of visual cue like this. Is this possible? Is it to be expected?
Are there any simple equations to determine whether two circuits(electrical and mechanical) are oscillating? Any expected visual cues?
Thanks...very interesting thread
g

 

[gentleone444]

Also does it matter in a tank circuit which way the capacitor is facing? The ones I use have plusses and arrows...I have tried both directions but don't seem to be able to notice a difference.