The Incompatibility of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics and Quantum Fluctuations

[southsider903]

first of all, i am not a physicist, nor even a student and have no experience in mathemathics whatsoever. in fact i am a high school drop out who has only been introduced to the subject (of which i have IMMENSE interest) through my own personal readings (Greene, Kaku, Hawking, Einstein, ect.). but i have a problem with thermodynamics and decided to go straight to the source.

the 2nd law of thermodynamics states that when a physical system reaches a state of equilibrium (as in the proposed "Big Chill Theory"), by definition no random events can occur. i have a problem with this that i would like insight on from those who are vastly more versed in the subject than myself. how does this account for quantum fluctuations?

[edit: i was in a hurry to post and i realize i misspelled the title]

 

[southsider903]

a problem with thermodynamics [please read]

i tried this topic in other forums with no response so i decided to purpose the question to quantum physicists in hope for a better response.

here's my post..

first of all, i am not a physicist, nor even a student and have no experience in mathemathics whatsoever. in fact i am a high school drop out who has only been introduced to the subject (of which i have IMMENSE interest) through my own personal readings (Greene, Kaku, Hawking, Einstein, ect.). but i have a problem with thermodynamics and decided to go straight to the source.

the 2nd law of thermodynamics states that when a physical system reaches a state of equilibrium (as in the proposed "Big Chill Theory"), by definition no random events can occur. i have a problem with this that i would like insight on from those who are vastly more versed in the subject than myself. how does this account for quantum fluctuations?

 

[Archosaur]

Where did you hear that? I have never heard it before.

I have a problem with it, too. Firstly, you say "by definition", which suggests that it follows logically from thermo 2, which I really don't see. I don't know if that's your doing, or if that's what you've been told.

Quantum fluctuations don't give a @#$% whether or not a system is at maximum entropy. There's no reason for them to stop.

 

[nnnm4]

Entropy says that ON AVERAGE, we won't observe any random events. On Average is somewhat of an understatement though. Entropy deals with probabilities associated with the configurations of the particles that constitute a system. And there are on the order of 10^26 particles in a system, so the fluctuations from the statistical mean (or thermodynamic value) are extremely small.

Quantum fluctuations play a role in the thermodynamics as well. For example consider electrons with spin on a lattice. They wan't to tend to align, but if the lattice is triangular quantum effects will make the electrons not be able to "decide" what spin state to be in. These factors can cause transitions to a knew phase of matter (something analogous to a water-->ice transition, but more subtle) but the entropy will still be maximized.

 

[southsider903]

thank you for your reply. and after viewing it I am suprised i haven't come to the same conclusion based on my own research. I am well aware of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, probability waves, ect. and what you're saying makes perfect sense. it's just hard to process the vast amount of information when you are trying to process all the data on your own. much appreciated.

 

[southsider903]

yeh that's just what i have read in my own personal research, i have never taken a college course in my life (or an 11th grade class for that matter). it just seemed to me that the two laws were incompatible with each other, thanks for the insight

 

[the_house]

the 2nd law of thermodynamics states that when a physical system reaches a state of equilibrium (as in the proposed "Big Chill Theory"), by definition no random events can occur. i have a problem with this that i would like insight on from those who are vastly more versed in the subject than myself. how does this account for quantum fluctuations?

I'm not familiar with the "Big Chill Theory", and I don't know where you saw this statement, but even in thermal equilibrium there are definitely random quantum fluctuations and random thermal fluctuations. However, these occur at small length scales. Macroscopically averaged quantities, on the other hand (like temperature), are constant (indeed, just by the definition of thermal equilibrium). Perhaps this is what caused some confusion?

 

[ZapperZ]

yeh that's just what i have read in my own personal research, i have never taken a college course in my life (or an 11th grade class for that matter). it just seemed to me that the two laws were incompatible with each other, thanks for the insight

This isn't sufficient.

If there's anything you can learn from being on this forum, is that if you want us to clarify what you read or what you came across, you must provide the exact reference to the source. There is no way we can explain such a thing without knowing the source. We have no idea if you read the source correctly, or if the source itself is dubious. Trying to correct the latter is a waste of time, and we prohibit the discussion of crackpottery in this forum, per the PF Rules that you had agreed to.

So you need to come up with the exact reference to what you are referring to.

Zz.