The largest rational less than sqrt(10)

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In summary, the conversation discusses finding the supremum of a set of rationals (p/q, where q is even) that is less than sqrt(10). The participants discuss using the archimedean property and the concept of supremum to show that there is no maximum element in the set. They also consider using finite and infinite continued fractions to argue for the existence of a supremum. Ultimately, they conclude that the set has a supremum of sqrt(10) but does not have a maximal element.
  • #1
onthetopo
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How do I find the sup of rationals (p/q, where q is even) that is less than sqrt(10)?
gcd(p,q)=1
 
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  • #2
Here's a hint: while that set does have a supremum, it does not have a maximum.
 
  • #3
Suppose I gave you a rational number which I claimed to be the closest rational less than sqrt(10). Could you make one that's closer?
 
  • #4
Suppose you claim x/y is the sup, where y is even (and x must be odd by the way), then I can construct x+1/y+2?
hmm, seriously I have no idea.
wait, i got an idea
 
  • #5
Given the decimal expansion to sqrt(10), you can always truncate it at a point such that it is bigger than any supposed "closest" rational. Basically, this shows that there is no such rational. As Hurkyl hinted, the set of rationals less than sqrt(10) has a supremum -- it's sqrt(10), it does not actually have a maximal element.
 
  • #6
thanks a lot for all your reply
I under stand the truncate argument , we know irrationals are infinite decimals but rationals are finite decimals.
but how to show it rigorously?i was trying to use archimedean principle to construct some contradiction,but didn't work out.
 
  • #7
Maybe that's what you're looking for:

If we have a supremum x, then sqrt 10 - x > 0. Since Q has the archimedean property, there exist a rational y such as 10 - x > 1/y. This said, we have 10 - (x + 1/y) > 0. This said, 1/y is rational, and hence so is x + 1/y - contradiction.
 
  • #8
onthetopo said:
we know irrationals are infinite decimals but rationals are finite decimals.
but how to show it rigorously?

Most rationals are not finite decimals. For example, 1/3.
 
  • #9
AlephZero said:
Most rationals are not finite decimals. For example, 1/3.

sorry, i meant finite decimals or infinitely repeating decimals
 
  • #10
Werg22 said:
Maybe that's what you're looking for:

If we have a supremum x, then sqrt 10 - x > 0. Since Q has the archimedean property, there exist a rational y such as 10 - x > 1/y. This said, we have 10 - (x + 1/y) > 0. This said, 1/y is rational, and hence so is x + 1/y - contradiction.

Brilliant, but I thought archimedean property is defined such that 10-x>1/n where n must be an integer. Also the statement sqrt 10 - x > 0 is quite intuitive.
 
  • #11
the supremum of "all rationals less than the irrational number r" or the supremum of "all rational numbers with even denominator (when reduced to lowest terms) less than the irrational number r" is very easy to find- but it's not a rational number.
 
  • #12
onthetopo said:
thanks a lot for all your reply
I under stand the truncate argument , we know irrationals are infinite decimals but rationals are finite decimals.

You can use finite contin ued fractions vs. infinite continued fractions, if you like.
 
  • #13
onthetopo said:
Brilliant, but I thought archimedean property is defined such that 10-x>1/n where n must be an integer. Also the statement sqrt 10 - x > 0 is quite intuitive.

Then replace "a rational y" by a "natural y". sqrt 10 - x > 0 is easy to argue for: we know that sqrt 10 > 0. Since 0 belongs to Q, then x can assume values that are lower than sqrt 10, hence a supremum could exist.
 
  • #14
It's hard to believe there have been so many posts on this! If you were working only in the rational numbers, then the set of all rationals, p/q, reduced to lowest terms with q even, less than [itex]\sqrt{10}[/itex] does not exist.

Thought of as subset of real numbers, since the set has an upper bound, it has a supremum: [itex]\sqrt{10}[/itex].
 

FAQ: The largest rational less than sqrt(10)

What is the largest rational number less than the square root of 10?

The largest rational number less than the square root of 10 is 3, which can be written as 3/1 or 3.00.

How do you know that 3 is the largest rational number less than sqrt(10)?

To find the largest rational number less than sqrt(10), we can use the property that the square root of any non-perfect square number is an irrational number. Since 10 is not a perfect square, its square root is irrational. Therefore, the largest rational number less than sqrt(10) must be the greatest whole number less than sqrt(10), which is 3.

Can you provide a proof that 3 is the largest rational number less than sqrt(10)?

Yes, we can prove that 3 is the largest rational number less than sqrt(10) by contradiction. Suppose there exists a rational number x such that 3 < x < sqrt(10). We can write x as a fraction p/q, where p and q are positive integers. Then, 3q < pq < sqrt(10)q. Squaring both sides, we get 9q^2 < p^2q^2 < 10q^2. This means that p^2q^2 is between two consecutive perfect squares, which is impossible since q is a positive integer. Therefore, our assumption is false and 3 must be the largest rational number less than sqrt(10).

How can knowing the largest rational number less than sqrt(10) be useful in mathematics or science?

Knowing the largest rational number less than sqrt(10) can be useful in various fields of mathematics and science, such as number theory and physics. In number theory, it can be used to prove the irrationality of sqrt(10) and other square roots. In physics, it can be used in calculations involving square roots, such as determining the maximum possible velocity of a projectile.

Are there any other rational numbers that are close to sqrt(10) but not as large as 3?

Yes, there are infinitely many rational numbers that are close to sqrt(10) but not as large as 3. These numbers can be found by taking the square root of any perfect square that is slightly less than 10, such as 9.99, 9.9, 9.999, and so on. For example, sqrt(9.99) = 3.16227766..., sqrt(9.9) = 3.14771548..., and sqrt(9.999) = 3.16227766..., all of which are rational numbers that are close to sqrt(10) but less than 3.

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