Thread closed for the 3rd time

[ffp]

Ok, this is the third time that my thread:

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/theory-question-about-neutrals-in-circuits.1000180/page-2

is closed. The first one was closed by @fresh_42 due to people wrongly thinking I was not able to do anything related electrical systems and thought that there was an issue wth safety. I created the second one and was very clear that I was not looking for tips about how to mess with the system and that I am indeed completely capable of discussing and operating the system, since I am an electrical engineer and I have all the safety PPE (I work in a distribution company). Ok, I think that wasn't an issue anymore.

Now, this second thread was very intersting, lots of people discussing and trying to discover what could be happening, although some users posted things that had nothing to do with the subject. Like the post that made it be locked.
The fact that there are several diferent details in the systems of different countries doesn't mean that I can't just post how it is done in my country. I already said how is the connection in the transformer (secondary Y with grounded neutral), I already said the voltage level of the phases, I already said how many phases there are in the system. What is the problem of discussing what is happening using this info I gave? It doesn't matter how it works in another countries, we are all scientists capable of working with the given initial conditions.
After arguing with @berkeman about this, he re-opened the thread.

Ok, now this happened, a post by berkeman:

In the US, the NEC (National Electrical Code) is the law. Can you please provide a link to the National Electrical Code laws in your country? Thank you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Electrical_Code

Which I responded:

Hm, I live in Brasil. We don't have a single document with all the laws and norms of electric system. We have a federal company called Aneel, that regulates almost everything regarding electric systems. If you tell me what exactly you want to know I can search and post what you need to know.

However I feel that your question lies in a worry that I might be doing something illegal why else would you want to know laws instead of characteristics of the sytem? Is that it?

Then he proceeded to explain how the law work in the US. That's fine. But I don't live in the USA. I live in Brasil. I work for a distribution company in my state. I KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT when I say that, after the company meter (inside the client house), ther responsability is of the client. We (the distribution company, or any company) DO NOT require any kind of document or permission for someone to work in the inside circuit of their own home.

So, he locked the thread with this:

I'm not sure that trying to justify this discussion based on your claim that you are in a 3rd world country that does not require safety standards and inspections and permits is valid. Thread closed again. Lordy.

For a matter of fact. I did that already in my apartment. I hired an electrician to change all the wires of the apartment (it is an old apartment and the wires were too old and stiff). So, if the worry is about that, I would like to see any document or law proving that in Brasil its illegal to work on your own house electrical system.

However, I feel that this should not even be discussed since:

1- My thread is not about how to change anything inside my friend's (it isn't even mine) house. It's about the circuit theory of what is happening there. I DON'T want tips or anything to directly affet the ciruits. The only thing I did and could do is turn breakers on/off and measure voltages.

2- I am not going to change anything (already said this is not my house).

3- The forum is not to take any matter about what I do in real life. Everyone here could be as well as lying about what they do, what they are or where they live. As long as I don't break any forum rule, my thread should not be locked.

I have read the entire Terms of Service of the forums. The only thing that could be used (as a bad argument) would be:

"Illegal & Dangerous Activities:
Explicit "how to" discussions of illegal and/or dangerous activities, or posts advocating such activities, are prohibited; such as: how to make explosives, manufacture crack, steal software, hack into the CIA, ...

Additional details regarding discussion of controlled substances and chemicals can be found in the Chemistry Forum Guidelines."

That is not the case because A) I'm not asking "how to" anything. I'm asking questiongs about circuitry theory. And B) Anything that even could be asked there is not illegal. Even if I were asing how to change the electrical system, that is not illegal in my country (and I believe several other countries), and are not even close to the examples of making explosive or crack.

"Legal and Health Implications:
Physics Forums reserves the right to remove and block discussion where there is plausibility that discussion may lead to litigation or affect ones health."

This was already discussed in the first time the thread was locked. I am an electrical engineer, I have the electricity safety course (in my country it is named NR10), I work for a distribuition company as field engineer, and most importantly, I am not doing anything other than asking theory!

So, I would like to have a very good explanation of exactly why my thread was closed, or have it re-opened. I am a member of this forum for some time and everytime I had some question about physics/electric engineer I asked here due to the great content and knowledge of the users. However this last days I am having a very, VERY hard time with the moderators for a silly reason.

 

[DaveE]

OK, we're going for try #4 then?

You asked a question about converting outlets in your friend's house and appeared confused with the existing construction. Then when you didn't like the advice to hire local expertise, you repost essentially the same puzzle and claim it's theoretical. Yet the context remains as "house wiring". When you refer back to his house, or local building codes, you contradict the illusion of theoretical queries. Whether you live in Manhattan, or the slums of Kinshasa, I'm not going to tell you how to rewire a house; not even a theoretical one at this point.

I think we would welcome theory questions. But I suggest you present them as such. You know, like you might see in a textbook, for example.

In any case I'm sorry you're not getting what you want from PF. However, I suspect that the moderators have a lot of support in this regard among the PF community.

 

[phinds]

@ffp, it is clear from your statement " Then he proceeded to explain how the law work in the US. That's fine. But I don't live in the USA. I live in Brasil. " that you are missing the point in one regard. A large percentage of the people on this forum DO live in the USA and I think an even larger percentage of people who come here only briefly are from the USA. SO ... if we allow a thread that could present unsafe practices in the USA, whether or not they are considered unsafe in Brazil, the forum might be sued as liable for someone doing something stupid because of something they saw posted on this forum.

It doesn't matter whether they are theoretical or not ... unsafe is unsafe.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Thread closed for the 3rd time!

Take the hint.

 

[ffp]

OK, we're going for try #4 then?

You asked a question about converting outlets in your friend's house and appeared confused with the existing construction. Then when you didn't like the advice to hire local expertise, you repost essentially the same puzzle and claim it's theoretical. Yet the context remains as "house wiring". When you refer back to his house, or local building codes, you contradict the illusion of theoretical queries. Whether you live in Manhattan, or the slums of Kinshasa, I'm not going to tell you how to rewire a house; not even a theoretical one at this point.

I think we would welcome theory questions. But I suggest you present them as such. You know, like you might see in a textbook, for example.

In any case I'm sorry you're not getting what you want from PF. However, I suspect that the moderators have a lot of support in this regard among the PF community.

The advice to hire a local expertise isn't what I'm looking for. I already said many times that the local expertise wanted to re-wire the entire apartemnt. I'm not looking for a solution for this problem. I am looking for a physical explanation. Please, stop advicing that.
I am not claiming it's theoretical. I simply got the real issue and transformed into a thoeretical question exactly because I want to understand the theory behind the issue.

You don't need to tell me how to re-wire a house, because I know how to do that. I learned that in eectrical instalation in my university. Again, re-wiring IS NOT WHAT I WANT. If some people stick to the teory of the circuitry, which is what I want, there is no re-wiring matter. You insist on something that I am NOT asking.

I already presented it in a theoretical way in my second thread. I am not using the real circuitry of the apartment (don't even remember it exactly). The thing is that some people is trying to turn my theoretical question into something real and dangerous, which isn't.

The moderators have absolutely NO support since they are not locking my thread based on any rule of the forum. I am not attempting to re-wire or do anything other than turning breakers on/off and measuring outlets voltages. On top of that, I already stated that I am an engineer that have all the courses (NR10) and EPP (I work at the distribution company). What else do you guys want a picture of my EPP and my university degree??

@ffp, it is clear from your statement " Then he proceeded to explain how the law work in the US. That's fine. But I don't live in the USA. I live in Brasil. " that you are missing the point in one regard. A large percentage of the people on this forum DO live in the USA and I think an even larger percentage of people who come here only briefly are from the USA. SO ... if we allow a thread that could present unsafe practices in the USA, whether or not they are considered unsafe in Brazil, the forum might be sued as liable for someone doing something stupid because of something they saw posted on this forum.

It doesn't matter whether they are theoretical or not ... unsafe is unsafe.

@phinds, Is that an USA forum?? I guess it's an international forum. If building a counting circuit were illegal in USA but not in my country it would be against the forum rules? About safety, again I'm not asking how to re-wire or do anything of the sort in the apartment. I'm asking theory questions that could very much be in a textbook.
Is measuring voltage in an outlet or turning breakers of unsafe? It isn't even for amateur that know nothing about electricity. What about for a field engineer??

Take the hint.

@Vanadium 50 I won't take any hint. I am wating for a forum rules based explanation about why measuring things and opening breakers is dangerous or illegal like building an explosive.

It doesn't even matter. If you guys don't even want to reccomend measuring or colsing breakers, we can pretty much discuss the theory without doing that! I said a million times that I don't want advices about what to do there. I just want to understand the situation. I don't need to do anything in the house to do that. We all can do that in the safety of our houses, talking through our computers.

Please, could the moderation provide a decent argument based on forum rules about why it was closed or re-open the thread??

Las but not least, if someone happens to post something that indeed is dangerous (for example, asking to connect the hot line directly into the neutral), the moderator should delete the poster's post and not lock the entire thread. I have not asked for anything dangerous.

 

[DaveE]

I am wating for a forum rules based explanation about why measuring things and opening breakers is dangerous or illegal like building an explosive.

You might not get that answer. When you make your own website/forum, you can define your own rules. Greg doesn't have to set rules that you agree with. You may not agree with the decisions of the moderators, but that doesn't mean they have to satisfy you that they are "just". Sorry, life isn't always fair, and people don't always agree about what is dangerous.

 

[ffp]

You might not get that answer. When you make your own website/forum, you can define your own rules. Greg doesn't have to set rules that you agree with. You may not agree with the decisions of the moderators, but that doesn't mean they have to satisfy you that they are "just". Sorry, life isn't always fair, and people don't always agree about what is dangerous.

Well, that is what defines if a forum is being well moderated or not. If moderators are just locking threads because they want to and not providing any plausible explanation other than "it's dangerous", while I made my point about why it isn't dangerous and even that what I want is not what they claim it's dangerous, they are doing a bad job. Life is unfair is a lame explanation.

Life is unfair is not a good explanation to lock a thread or not provide an answer to a user that has not break any forum rule.

What I find very curious is a few users not trying to argue with all the arguments I provided, about how it isn't dangerous or even that it isn't what I'm asking for, but just sticking to the moderators side regardless of providing good reasoning.

Could anyone at least argue with my points??

 

[DaveE]

Could anyone at least argue with my points??

They could. But will they? IDK; if you forced me to place a bet, I'll say no they won't. Let's see shall we?

 

[Algr]

FFP, I sympathize with you. I once had a thread locked because a mod thought that electrolysis of water was pseudoscience.

It's pointless trying to argue though, it isn't going to change. You just have to take what you can get here and then look elsewhere.

 

[phinds]

FFP, I sympathize with you. I once had a thread locked because a mod thought that electrolysis of water was pseudoscience.

Unlikely. What thread was that?

 

[Rive]

Could anyone at least argue with my points??

You thinks your case is something singular, deserving special care.

It is not. It is a very common case. The forum already had all kind of people from all around the word wishing to discuss some things which would instead require simple acceptance since they are regulated (for very good and serious reason).

Some of those people could present their question in a way that they were recognized as experts, so the discussion could go on for a while. You did not manage to do that.

In this regard (judging the expertise level of a member whether if it's safe to keep something open or not) any and every type of moderation will depend on the personal opinion of the moderators. There is no help for that.

Our moderators are good. If they say it's not fine, you better take that seriously since it's also an opinion from an expert.

 

[ffp]

They could. But will they? IDK; if you forced me to place a bet, I'll say no they won't. Let's see shall we?

I don't think they could. Not with reason, at least. They could do what it's been done until now. Which is being very bad at arguing, not listening to my arguments and post shitty mocking responses like yours. I'd also bet there won't be any good arguing with my points. It's a shame...

FFP, I sympathize with you. I once had a thread locked because a mod thought that electrolysis of water was pseudoscience.

It's pointless trying to argue though, it isn't going to change. You just have to take what you can get here and then look elsewhere.

Hahaha, what a ridiculous mod team. Well, I thought that for a physics forum, logic and reason and good arguments should be vey effective. I bet they didn't even argue with your points either...

@phinds Do you really find it unlickely? Are you seeing any reasoning or arguing in my post? I am not a bit surprised that they would close his thread for a imbecile reason like that.

You thinks your case is something singular, deserving special care.

It is not. It is a very common case. The forum already had all kind of people from all around the word wishing to discuss some things which would instead require simple acceptance since they are regulated (for very good and serious reason).

No I don't think its a special case. I just think that user should receive a good treatment, since users are the most important things on forums. A forum without users will die. And ANY thread that is closed and the OP feels that it shouldn't, should have a good response and argument based on FORUM RULES by the moderators.
What I am asking IS NOT REGULATED. You might have missed the million times that I argued, but I don't want to re-wire or mess in any way with the electrical system. I want to think and discuss circuit theory! Holy dang, how is that so hard to understand? Show me ANY post of mine asking how to mess with the house circuit or "how to" anything!

Some of those people could present their question in a way that they were recognized as experts, so the discussion could go on for a while. You did not manage to do that.

Again, point me any post where I said something wrong or amateur about circuit theory. The doubt I have about the issue is not trivial at all. I had several responses on the thread an no user could answer it right, so I guess even the experts are strugling with the problem.
Also, it is not required to be an expert to ask question in this forum. They have an area for homework! So, you have to pose as a badass expert to get an answer. What kind of ****ed up forum is that that require the OPs to try very hard to convince people to answer! No, I think you're wrong. So much that I got several answers and some good ones. My issue is not with the users or the forum. Is with the moderators.

In this regard (judging the expertise level of a member whether if it's safe to keep something open or not) any and every type of moderation will depend on the personal opinion of the moderators. There is no help for that.

Our moderators are good. If they say it's not fine, you better take that seriously since it's also an opinion from an expert.

You are bringing this argument because of the reason of the 1st closed thread, I sigh and bring back both arguments I made before. I'm a field engineer with NR10 and all EPP and most importantly I don't want to mess with the circuit or any tips for that! The safety issue were discussed and terminated.

No, the moderators are not good (at least those two I had contact). I will give credit where it is due: they both answered very fast to my messages. They are active. However, they have 0 arguing ability. None of them could or sometimes not even tried to argue against my points. That's what I am waiting for with this thread.

Berkeman even gotthe ridiculous behaviour of trying to "test" me asking a circuitry question to see if I knew the answer. As if there was a minimum requirement to post a question here. Again, I have not shown lack of knowledge in circuit theory, and even if I had, that's no reason to judge and lock a thread.

 

[phinds]

Berkeman even gotthe ridiculous behaviour of trying to "test" me asking a circuitry question to see if I knew the answer.

Bad Berkeman, bad berkeman !

 

[anorlunda]

@ffp, you are missing the point that this is a public forum.

For every person who reads your threads this week, there might be hundreds or thousands of other people from many countries that read it in future years. Those people could include children. So this thread is not a conversation between you and the others posting, but it archived as a permanent record.

The guidelines do not forbid dangerous people, they forbid dangerous topics. I have always considered home wiring as a potentially dangerous topic in public forums, because future readers it have different backgrounds, different ages, and live in different countries with different regulations. That judgement has nothing to do with the persons posting, or the country where the OP lives.

There are other forums with restricted membership where discussion can be more open. Electricians in Brazil might have their own forum. But PF is fully public.

 

[Vanadium 50]

You seem to think you can demand an answer from volunteers, and furthermore, the answer is what you wanted to hear ahead of time.

This is not the case.

 

[Rive]

As if there was a minimum requirement to post a question here.

You may post, but that does not means that everything you post will stay...

Sometimes when the attitude is right, the expertise is clean and the discussion worth keeping around, some borderline topics may remain open just a bit longer based on the discretion of moderators.

It's good this way. Many of us here can understand and appreciate this practice.

Well, you did not pass.
Happens.
Get over it.

 

[ffp]

@ffp, you are missing the point that this is a public forum.

For every person who reads your threads this week, there might be hundreds or thousands of other people from many countries that read it in future years. Those people could include children. So this thread is not a conversation between you and the others posting, but it archived as a permanent record.

The guidelines do not forbid dangerous people, they forbid dangerous topics. I have always considered home wiring as a potentially dangerous topic in public forums, because future readers it have different backgrounds, different ages, and live in different countries with different regulations. That judgement has nothing to do with the persons posting, or the country where the OP lives.

There are other forums with restricted membership where discussion can be more open. Electricians in Brazil might have their own forum. But PF is fully public.

I would agree with you. If it was a thread about how to wire a house. It is not. Its a thread about circuit theory, where the issue happens in a house. I dare you to quote any of my posts asking or even talking about wiring a house. All we are discussing is about measuring voltages. If you think that measuring voltages shouldn't even be discussed because a children might put a fork into an outlet, then there are a lot other things that should be locked because children can do all kind of dang.

Again, quote one of my posts that ask or talks about how to wire a house, if you can.

You seem to think you can demand an answer from volunteers, and furthermore, the answer is what you wanted to hear ahead of time.

This is not the case.

I can't demand users to answer my thread. If it had 0 answers I would be ok with it. I can, however, demand an answer from the moderators that wrongly locked my thread. Because this is their job. Doesn't matter if its volunteer or not, it still their responsability to talk to the forum users.
I know that my demand can be in vain, but this only shows the inefficiency of the moderators. Until now, I had no arguments or even responses from them in this thread here. I only got mods suck asses defending them without even discussing my points or retards mocking.

The few users here that at least tried to argue, used the same arguments without considering what my points were.

@Rive I am ok with that. As i said, if the thread had 0 responses (as I had in the past), I would have no problem. No one is obligated to answer my questions in a forum. However, this was not the case. The discussion was going very well, people were answering and I was responding, trying to dig more into the issue. The problem is when a mod goes and lock the thread without any good reasoning.
There isn't a single post (mine or otherwise) teaching or talking about wiring a house.

Let me take a more direct approach. Which post made the thread be locked? Which post of the thread presented information about wiring a house that could be dangerous?

 

[russ_watters]

I'm not participating in the thread, but I'm watching it and the discussions amongst the moderators/advisors about it. So I'll comment:

I would agree with you. If it was a thread about how to wire a house. It is not. Its a thread about circuit theory, where the issue happens in a house. I dare you to quote any of my posts asking or even talking about wiring a house.

The moderators and advisors aren't stupid. They recognize that this thread/issue is tied to the prior thread. So obviously, there is a risk that you will use the information you learn to work on the wiring of the house. There is also a risk that someone else reading the thread will use the information to work on their house's wiring. If you are being honest with yourself and us, you'll recognize that this risk is real. You may not agree that the risk is significant, but that's a value judgement. The moderators have judged the risk to be significant enough to close the thread.

 

[ffp]

I'm not participating in the thread, but I'm watching it and the discussions amongst the moderators/advisors about it. So I'll comment:

Ok, you are the first to answer and at least try to argue. That's good.

The moderators and advisors aren't stupid. They recognize that this thread/issue is tied to the prior thread. So obviously, there is a risk that you will use the information you learn to work on the wiring of the house.

There is no such risk, because of several points, that I already stated:

1- I have no interest of re-wiring the house, since it's not my house.
2- I already did re-wire my apartment some years ago when I moved in (I called an electrician because I hadn't the time to do it at the time)
3- I am capacitated to work with electricity, since I am a field engineer with all the courses (NR10) and EPPs.
4- Nowhere in the thread I asked tips or "how to" about wiring a house. My issue is with circuit theory

So, this shoudn't be any issue.

There is also a risk that someone else reading the thread will use the information to work on their house's wiring. If you are being honest with yourself and us, you'll recognize that this risk is real. You may not agree that the risk is significant, but that's a value judgement. The moderators have judged the risk to be significant enough to close the thread.

Now, this is the big issue. Other people reading the thread. I could argue that by this logic any thread that deals with voltages of 100+ should be locked because someone might try and do something stupid in their own homes. While this is true, and the forums as well as the users can't and won't take any responsability for those cases (that's written on the Terms of the forum), I won't try to argue this way.
I will argue that nowhere in the thread there was info about wiring a house. Could you please show me any post of the thread that you considered as dangerous for a 3rd reader to go on and try to rewire their own house based on that post?

 

[russ_watters]

There is no such risk, because of several points, that I already stated:

1- I have no interest of re-wiring the house, since it's not my house.

This requires us to trust you. Can you seriously not see that trust carries risk?

There is a basic problem of maturity reflected in your posture here. It's a professional/life lesson you really need to start to learn. Especially since this is supposed to be your field of expertise, and presumably your profession. Being a professional [electrical] engineer isn't just about knowing how circuits work. You need to learn to think and behave like a professional.

Now, this is the big issue. Other people reading the thread. I could argue that by this logic any thread that deals with voltages of 100+ should be locked because someone might try and do something stupid in their own homes.

We have indeed had spirited debates amongst the moderators regarding where to draw the line, and that was one suggestion. Obviously, it isn't clear-cut, and you don't have to agree with how we draw it. But we won't adjust it just because you don't like it.

 

[ffp]

This requires us to trust you. Can you seriously not see that trust carries risk?

Oh, is that so? So, to have a good discussion I need to earn your trust? Well, if this is a ridiculous and absurdly arrogant posture.
Also, how exactly do I earn the trust? By my posts? So if a 10 year old makes a good job pretending you will be fooled? You need to understand this: there is not such a thing as truth over the internet. You have no way to know who's on the other side.

There is a basic problem of maturity reflected in your posture here. It's a professional/life lesson you really need to start to learn. Especially since this is supposed to be your field of expertise, and presumably your profession. Being a professional [electrical] engineer isn't just about knowing how circuits work. You need to learn to think and behave like a professional.

And you claim that based on what? On how I reacted of my thread being closed 3 times? Or how I react about safety? I guess you don't know me enough to claim that. If you mean safety, I have all the EPPs and courses that my job provide.Again, could you quote a post that breaks the rules and is considered to be dangerous? A post which would put people who reads it in danger?

 

[russ_watters]

Oh, is that so? So, to have a good discussion I need to earn your trust? Well, if this is a ridiculous and absurdly arrogant posture.
Also, how exactly do I earn the trust?

You're not listening. That's not how it works. It's not personal, it's professional. Trust is not something you can earn, to get around the rules. It is something that is objectively weighed for/inherent to the situation (not person by person), and action decided accordingly. It's why professional procedures exist. Why a license is needed in certain situations. The license is a replacement for trust. In this situation, there's nothing that you or another user could do for us to safely trust you. That's what the policies are for. The rules are the same for everyone. This is what I mean about you needing to learn how professionalism works.

You have no way to know who's on the other side.

Exactly. That's why we can never fully trust you or anyone else.

And you claim that based on what? On how I reacted of my thread being closed 3 times? Or how I react about safety? I guess you don't know me enough to claim that. If you mean safety, I have all the EPPs and courses that my job provide.

All of the above, but in particular the lack of ability to step back and objectively evaluate the situation, per the above. It's one thing to disagree with a judgement, but you don't even seem to understand how judgement works.

On that note, and with the feedback of other moderators, I'll close this thread as well. Please take some time to put some thought into all this. It's good to understand for professional reasons, but more directly, it is necessary understanding, to continue posting on PF. Thanks.