Ukraine Thread Closure Reported - No Discussion Allowed?

[geordief]

I have reported the closure of the Ukraine thread.
No place here for discussion of the Invasion of Ukraine?

 

[fresh_42]

I have reported the closure of the Ukraine thread.
No place here for discussion of the Invasion of Ukraine?

If you reported it, then the moderators are discussing it. It is borderline anyway because it is to some extend politics. Anyway, give us some time for discussion.

 

[Klystron]

The 'Worried' thread skirted politics from inception but provided a necessary forum as many thinking people have deep concerns. Perhaps we should have a serious current events thread.

Having read each comment and many attached articles, the information flow appeared strongest where the member commented within their area of knowledge and weakest when the opposite occurred.

For instance and without animus, the comments from Eastern Europe, say Latvia, about that area were illuminating and often informative. The comments about American history and public figures from members educated in the USSR lacked rigor.

For example, many Americans support Cuba and its people throughout its often turbulent history. HRC played significant positive roles as Arkansas first lady, US first lady, Senator from New York and Secretary of State during President Obama's administrations. Dictator, not even as sarcasm. Thanks.

 

[anorlunda]

The limitation on political threads comes from the limited ability of volunteer mentors to moderate it. Not the value of the topic, but the limits of moderation.

 

[berkeman]

Having read each comment and many attached articles

Moderating that thread has taken a huge amount of work by the Moderators. You likely have not seem most of the posts and subthreads that were deleted. It may be time to just tie if off as too difficult to Moderate...

 

[phinds]

Moderating that thread has taken a huge amount of work by the Moderators. You likely have not seem most of the posts and subthreads that were deleted. It may be time to just tie if off as too difficult to Moderate...

I'd be sad to see it go but I respect the time and effort the mods put in on this forum and if they feel it needs to go, then so be it.

EDIT: Jeez, I just looked at the last couple of posts. Terrible and clearly against the rules here. If it has devolved to that they I WON'T be sorry to see it go.

 

[PeroK]

I don't think it should be reopened because there are deep divisions between many of us on what needs to be done. I tried to stay away from it, but that resolution lasted less than a day. We are just going to end up falling out over this.

Also, the horrors that are coming out of Ukraine will only polarise opinion further.

 

[pinball1970]

Moderating that thread has taken a huge amount of work by the Moderators. You likely have not seem most of the posts and subthreads that were deleted. It may be time to just tie if off as too difficult to Moderate...

Appreciated too.
I will miss checking in though, it was cathartic. Where else can we discuss it?
If there is some sort of escalation or resolution I hope we can revisit.

 

[anorlunda]

Where else can we discuss it?

You must be kidding. The Internet is all around us. There are endless places other than PF to discuss things. The difference perhaps is a more expanded meaning of the word "we".

 

[pinball1970]

You must be kidding. The Internet is all around us. There are endless places other than PF to discuss things. The difference perhaps is a more expanded meaning the word "we".

Define 'the internet'

You mean 'everyone else?'

I am not on Facebook Twitter Instagram Pinterest. I am on YouTube but not for discussion. Music and lots of other stuff.

I want to know how things are going to go from the posters here.

 

[pinball1970]

You must be kidding. The Internet is all around us. There are endless places other than PF to discuss things. The difference perhaps is a more expanded meaning of the word "we".

'We' is pf.
From the heart?
A few days in the cooler, then release the thread with caveats at the mentors discretion.

 

[phinds]

A few days in the cooler, then release the thread with caveats at the mentors discretion.

Yeah, I too would like to have this discussion here on PF because of the excellent forum rules and moderation, BUT ... did you look at the last couple of posts? We can hardly blame the mods for not wanting to have to deal with that kind of crap, especially since the political posts were expressly against the rules.

 

[DaveE]

My opinion has always been the PF is best suited to posts about STEM subjects. I know this isn't a popular position. Since we are a community, and discussing things like what happened in Hollywood and such is a social bonding activity. But... There are lots of other SM sites that do that too.

Anyway, my point isn't that these threads are horrible, but that there should be a pretty strong bias towards shutting down things which make a lot of unnecessary work, distraction, angst, or deviate from the core purpose here. In this regard, it doesn't seem too different from banning UFO discussions. Neither has anything to do with Physics.

 

[PeroK]

On a personal level, the real problems began with post #2062. If we have to debate whether Biden and Clinton are just as bad as Asad and Putin, then we cannot reopen this thread. That post got three likes, and I think that is the end of rational debate as far as I can see.

The subsequent posts by a certain user who has pushed the boundaries from the start caused a descent into political nonsense - which he has done repeatedly.

The problem, as ever, is that no one has any claim to views that are more valid than anyone else's. I have my views and others have theirs and we will never agree even on basic facts. I wish it was otherwise, but it's not.

I'd like to quote Oscar Wilde, which seems apt vis-a-vis this conflict:

With bars they blur the gracious moon,
And blind the goodly sun:
And they do well to hide their Hell,
For in it things are done
That Son of God nor son of Man
Ever should look upon!

 

[pinball1970]

Yeah, I too would like to have this discussion here on PF because of the excellent forum rules and moderation, BUT ... did you look at the last couple of posts? We can hardly blame the mods for not wanting to have to deal with that kind of crap, especially since the political posts were expressly against the rules.

Yes it went that way. For a few posts. I do not blame them.

If, IF they give this another chance I would welcome it BUT put a few rules down. This is political but do not make it political.

I can follow that, so can the other guys. I think.

 

[PeroK]

Yes it went that way. For a few posts. I do not blame them.

If, IF they give this another chance I would welcome it BUT put a few rules down. This is political but do not make it political.

I can follow that, so can the other guys. I think.

Your wish has been granted, apparently!

 

[S.G. Janssens]

Leaving this thread open was hypocrisy from the very start.

 

[berkeman]

Your wish has been granted, apparently!

Yes, it's kind of a tag team effort. We will see how it goes. There was a pretty big cleanup effort (not by me, I'm too lazy).

Leaving this thread open was hypocrisy from the very start.

I'm not sure I want to open a can of worms, but how so? The discussion was deemed important enough by the Mentors that we really wanted to try to keep it open if we could keep 50-50 politics out of it. It's been a lot of work for a few of the Mentors, but it seems worthwhile if it can be managed.

 

[phinds]

My thanks to the mentors for reopening the thread and agreeing to take on the continuing burden of keeping it on track. I'm sure it's on a short leash and deservedly so.

 

[S.G. Janssens]

I'm not sure I want to open a can of worms, but how so? The discussion was deemed important enough by the Mentors that we really wanted to try to keep it open if we could keep 50-50 politics out of it. It's been a lot of work for a few of the Mentors, but it seems worthwhile if it can be managed.

There are certain words that I write with a capital mid-sentence, but they do not appear in the above quote.
In any case, indeed, I have no interest in opening any can and risk having it thrown in my face in an online discussion with mostly anonymous parties.

 

[berkeman]

In any case, indeed, I have no interest in opening any can and risk having it thrown in my face in an online discussion with mostly anonymous parties.

Yuck, a facefull of worms would definitely be bad.

In any case, please feel free to start a PM conversation with me if there are issues that you would like to discuss. You are a valued member and Advisor here, and I'm hardly anonymous (see my Mentor Bio).

 

[PeroK]

As I said above, I expect horrors to emerge that are beyond my comprehension. I don't want to read comments by those who intellectualise them away with a shrug of their egotistical shoulders.

Please close that thread once and for all.

 

[Frabjous]

I’ve found the thread to have become repetitive. Occasionally something new pops up, but one has to weigh that against moderator burnout.

 

[phinds]

As I said above, I expect horrors to emerge that are beyond my comprehension. I don't want to read comments by those who intellectualise them away with a shrug of their egotistical shoulders.

Please close that thread once and for all.

Instead of complaining over and over about the thread, plus contributing posts that seem aimed at getting it shut down, why can you not just STOP READING IT ?

 

[PeroK]

Instead of complaining over and over about the thread, plus contributing posts that seem aimed at getting it shut down, why can you not just STOP READING IT ?

Because it's there. And I know it's there. I'm deciding whether I need to give PF a break for a while. I've tried to ignore it, believe me.

 

[russ_watters]

The problem, as ever, is that no one has any claim to views that are more valid than anyone else's. I have my views and others have theirs and we will never agree even on basic facts. I wish it was otherwise, but it's not.

I'm going to reply to this in the thread...

 

[Frabjous]

Instead of complaining over and over about the thread, plus contributing posts that seem aimed at getting it shut down, why can you not just STOP READING IT ?

It‘s harder than it sounds. I recently had to request a 10 day vacation to break my interest in a user that I found particularly annoying.

 

[berkeman]

I recently had to request a 10 day vacation

Thanks for the reminder -- I've deleted that infraction off of your record.

 

[PeroK]

Is there a way to ignore the Ukraine thread completely, so I don't see it at all?

 

[Frabjous]

You could unwatch it so that you do not get notifications. I believe that if you ignore the OP, it will not show up in the thread lists.

 

[PeroK]

You could unwatch it so that you do not get notifications.

It's still on the list of "new posts".

I believe that if you ignore the OP, it will not show up in the thread lists.

That's fresh_42 and you can't ignore a mentor.

 

[Frabjous]

It's still on the list of "new posts".

That's fresh_42 and you can't ignore a mentor.

Then I suggest doing what I did and request a 10 day vacation.

If you cannot bear the thought of ten days away, you probably need ten days away to reflect on PF-life balance

 

[pinball1970]

Then I suggest doing what I did and request a 10 day vacation.

If you cannot bear the thought of ten days away, you probably need ten days away to reflect on PF-life balance

I tried that when I was incensed with a post after Xmas. I was pulled back in though.

 

[anorlunda]

I tried that when I was incensed with a post after Xmas. I was pulled back in though.

"Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Michael Corleone, The Godfather: Part III

 

[berkeman]

Is there a way to ignore the Ukraine thread completely, so I don't see it at all?

The Mentors could "Thread Ban" you from that thread. It won't keep you from seeing it, but it will get rid of the temptation to post in it. Just let us know...

 

[PeroK]

The Mentors could "Thread Ban" you from that thread. It won't keep you from seeing it, but it will get rid of the temptation to post in it. Just let us know...

Thanks. I spent the afternoon watching news and other items and I changed my mind. I just watched an interview with Kaja Kallas, the Prime Minister of Estonia. Her mother was deported to Siberia when she was only six months old (along with her grandmother and great-grandmother). I can at least argue their case against the members on here who would claim a moral equivalence between the Russians and the West.

 

[StevieTNZ]

Please close that thread once and for all.

Stop posting in the thread if you're all for its closure. I see you have multiple times since posting the above. plane @ simple

 

[berkeman]

Stop posting in the thread if you're all for its closure. I see you have multiple times since posting the above. plane @ simple

He just said he changed his mind...

 

[StevieTNZ]

He just said he changed his mind...

Good. Stick to it. I hope he stops with the 'close this thread' narrative.

 

[pinball1970]

Good. Stick to it. I hope he stops with the 'close this thread' narrative.

Perhaps he is affected by the thread more than you and I? He has also been open about not liking the thread but also being drawn to it's development as the situation moves on. Very human and honest.

 

[S.G. Janssens]

Yuck, a facefull of worms would definitely be bad.

In any case, please feel free to start a PM conversation with me if there are issues that you would like to discuss. You are a valued member and Advisor here, and I'm hardly anonymous (see my Mentor Bio).

Thank you for your response, it is appreciated. I also appreciate it that you yourself are, indeed, not anonymous.

My main reason for being surprised and irritated by the ongoing thread about the war in Ukraine is that since long before the start of that war, I came to agree with the OP in this thread, hence also with this earlier post here. And there is no denying that the Ukraine thread is inherently political.

The question then becomes: Is the subject of the Ukraine thread sufficiently important to warrant an exception? There is no objective way to answer that question. So, in that sense any answer is arbitrary. And in this case, I think rules should prevail. Even more so because there are many other places online and offline where this topic is discussed with more expertise, by known participants with track records that are indicative for the value of their opinions.

(Finally, and I am a bit irritated that I feel compelled to write this, I am not arguing against the Ukraine thread because I would sympathize with the current Russian regime or its actions in the Ukraine. On the contrary, already since July 2014 (but still late) it is my wish that the clique responsible for all of this depravity is stopped by any means necessary, now. But the previous sentence is just as easy to type as many posts in the Ukraine thread itself, and it makes just as little difference.)

 

[Mike S.]

In the Ukraine thread, first they told me not to post about ancient history of Ukraine and the East-West schism; then they told me not to post a news story about unencrypted Russian communications because "this isn't Facebook" (?). I stopped trying to contribute after that. I peeked in now again and didn't see much worth reading after that either. They might as well leave it locked ... not for lack of "moderators" but because it's not worth figuring out what they want.

A bigger issue is all the routine locked physics threads on this forum - and the fact that they seem featured rather prominently - and that the lock isn't visible unless you log in. Twice I've found myself starting to work out a response to a thread only to be told it was locked when I went to start replying.

The inability to help users to handle open access to unfiltered content or even accept that they want to - the ever-higher prioritization of "moderation" over creation - this is at the root of the decline of Russia and most other countries around the world today. Every forum on the internet is declining, and most of the best ones are already destroyed.