Uncovering the Truth Behind the Myth: Investigating the Existence of Dragons

[Ivan Seeking]

Around about 1980, Omni magazine published an article in which the author argued that dragons really did exist. At the time I was struck by the logic of many points made. The biggest question in my mind is how so many separate cultures produced such detailed and consistent accounts of these thought to be mythical animals.

Animal planet is now playing a bit with this idea.
http://animal.discovery.com/convergence/dragons/dragons.html

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Referenced on the program to show that biological mechanisms similar to those suggested already exist in nature.

The reason the bombardier beetle is so unique is due to the two small glands located near the end of its abdomen. One gland produces hydrogen peroxide, while the other manufactures hydroquinone. The two chemicals are mixed in an 'explosion chamber', where two enzymes, catalase and peroxidase are added. These enzymes speed up the reaction to the boiling point, and the beetle ejects the boiling chemical stream at whatever predator is nearby.

http://www.wcsscience.com/bombardier/beetle.html

 

[polyb]

Where you watching animal planet tonight?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Yes. In fact the dragon bit is still running.

 

[polyb]

I just put it on and captain jean luke paccard is narrating! How much of this is just sensantional promotionalism? I'm still looking at the site to see if it has any legitimacy!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

This is more for fun than fact. But the ideas explored are much like those suggested 25 years ago. It is difficult to imagine how completely separate cultures, who knew nothing of each other, somehow evolved nearly identical myths. Many detailed descriptions of dragons can be found.

It is interesting to consider and not really so hard to believe. Consider for example that we just discovered the existence of an entire race of so called hobbits that co-existed with modern humans.

 

[hypatia]

I have always hoped they would find dragon remains.

 

[arildno]

1.Every single human culture knows about worms and serpents (i.e, they exist locally) , and, since a lot of the serpents are dangerous, people will be wary about them, tend to avoid them, or hold them in awe.
That is, there are plenty of local circumstances which will impart a fear or awe of serpents in the local human population.
2. Every culture met big creatures in their own neighbourhood (that might be bears, tigers or elephants), and precisely because these creatures are big, people will tend to treat them with some caution or fear.
3. No human population prior to 20th century were able to master the skies, even though they could "master" the earth, and to some lesser extent, the water.
Birds have in many cultures been revered/awed, and to some extent been envied due to their ability to fly ("to be as free as a bird" and so on)

Now, 1,2,3 are all elements which you can find present in just about every culture, and they result from similar experiences in local, natural circumstances.

Humans are imaginative and inventive, and combine their (local) experiences into insights, tales and myths.
Is it really too far-fetched that the idea of a whopping big flying serpent (that is, combination of 1+2+3) could evolve in a lot of disparate localities?
Since serpents, big creatures and birds are all creatures regarded with some degree of awe or reverence, the dragon myth can evoke an extraordinary rich set of connotations and emotions in all cultures.
That is, the dragon is, and remains great story material; every culture can be seen as simply waiting for the ingenious story-telling individual who manages to conjure forth the dragon before his audience.

Personally, I LOVE dragons (or at least, the idea of them!) but I find it more interesting to see the local variations of the myths.

For example, the great slithering Norse serpent (Fafnir or the Midgardswyrm, for example), is quite a different creature from the Anglo-saxon fire-breathing flying lizard, or the extremely elegant and benevolent Chinese variety.

 

[Galileo]

Dragons exist in Indonesia.
http://komodo.procombel.be/images/dragon.jpg

They don't breath fire or fly, but they're awesome badass motherf***ers.

Anyhoo, dragons are really cool. Especially the Chinese ones, with long slender bodies and kinda like moustache-tentacles.

 

[arildno]

Dragons exist in Indonesia.
http://komodo.procombel.be/images/dragon.jpg

They don't breath fire or fly, but they're awesome badass motherf***ers.

.

I know; I just love them (at least, when I can watch them from a safe distance on National Geographic..)

 

[matthyaouw]

Funny you should mention this. I stumbled across this a while ago-

http://www.creationism.org/topbar/dinosaurs.htm

Enjoy!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Perhaps we might assume that people described what they saw; rather than construct all sorts of convoluted arguments based completely on conjecture. I prefer parsimonious arguments.

 

[arildno]

Perhaps we might assume that people described what they saw; rather than construct all sorts of convoluted arguments based completely on conjecture. I prefer parsimonious arguments.

Speaking of what?
Where is this purely conjectural basis?

1. Do you seriously suggest that humans don't have an in-built fear of serpents?

2. Do you say that big creatures have not been treated with respect/awe/caution?

3. Do you deny that in a wide variety of cultures, flying creatures like birds have not been treated as somehow special, for example as messengers of the Gods?

4. Do you deny that human story-telling is based on a creative re-weaving of the story-teller's experiences, insights and emotions?

Where's the convoluted argument here?

I find my argument on the simplistic side, rather than on the convoluted side.
Secondly, it is naive, in the sense that it only uses obvious elements which are easily attested to be found in just about every culture.

 

[lawtonfogle]

That is a good argument, now can you explain how many different cultures that never interacted came up with the aliens. Even if dragons have never exsisted, we might be able to make them in a mad scientist meets jurrasic park style. Once we can create chromosomes for scratch, and then put them in a embryo and put that in a machine that can act as a womb.

Alot of the technology we need are not to far in the future. We can work with genes now and who knows what the government can do that they will not tell us. Scientist probally trying to grow clones in 'test tubes'. Who knows what scientist are doing in labs that are top sceret.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Speaking of what?
Where is this purely conjectural basis?

1. Do you seriously suggest that humans don't have an in-built fear of serpents?

yes. Show me the proof.

2. Do you say that big creatures have not been treated with respect/awe/caution?

I don't think this has anything to do with the topic.

3. Do you deny that in a wide variety of cultures, flying creatures like birds have not been treated as somehow special, for example as messengers of the Gods?

Again, I don't think this has anything to do with the topic without really reaching.

4. Do you deny that human story-telling is based on a creative re-weaving of the story-teller's experiences, insights and emotions?

Do you deny that humans also report what they see?

Where's the convoluted argument here?

I find my argument on the simplistic side, rather than on the convoluted side.
Secondly, it is naive, in the sense that it only uses obvious elements which are easily attested to be found in just about every culture.

Your sugggestions are reasonable but that does not make them true, or even likely. It is just one possible explanation. But it is also naive to explain away anything not understood as fairy tales. This is no different that blaming the plague on evil spirits. What we see is that like our ancestors, we still grasp for familiar and comfortable explanations whenever confronted with a mystery. Also, the credible anomalies thread shows that human testimony is often quite reliable.

I'm not arguing that dragons existed, I'm arguing that a lot of people say they did and we have no way to know. It is not reasonable to assume without proof that so much of written history is a lie. In fact it is the height of arrogance to do so.

 

[arildno]

So, I assume you think giants/ogres/trolls existed as well, since the legend of these big humanoids have sprung up all over the world?
Since you, in your role as mentor chooses to give legitimacy to all sorts of non-sensical ideas (like dowsing), I don't think you're fit to be that.

All you are offering the members of PF is the belief that once upon a time there were lots of huge, batwinged, fire-breathing reptiles swarming in the sky.
That has nothing to do with being a skeptic or open-minded, it is the attitude of the brainless.

 

[motai]

Funny you should mention this. I stumbled across this a while ago-

http://www.creationism.org/topbar/dinosaurs.htm

Enjoy!

I read through that article, and the only thing that comes to my mind is: what??!

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

So, I assume you think giants/ogres/trolls existed as well, since the legend of these big humanoids have sprung up all over the world?
Since you, in your role as mentor chooses to give legitimacy to all sorts of non-sensical ideas (like dowsing), I don't think you're fit to be that.

All you are offering the members of PF is the belief that once upon a time there were lots of huge, batwinged, fire-breathing reptiles swarming in the sky.
That has nothing to do with being a skeptic or open-minded, it is the attitude of the brainless.

I don't believe that Ivan neccisarily believes in all of the things that he posts in regards to here on PF. I think he just finds them fascinating subjects and thinks there may be something to some of them even if they aren't quite true as represented.
The idea that there may have been something akin to dragons about at one time is not that far fetched. You do believe in dinosaurs right? or do you consider that nonsense as well?
If you want to bring up openmindedness perhaps you should take a lesson first, or perhaps a lesson in not insulting people should be in order before that.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

So, I assume you think giants/ogres/trolls existed as well, since the legend of these big humanoids have sprung up all over the world?
Since you, in your role as mentor chooses to give legitimacy to all sorts of non-sensical ideas (like dowsing), I don't think you're fit to be that.

All you are offering the members of PF is the belief that once upon a time there were lots of huge, batwinged, fire-breathing reptiles swarming in the sky.
That has nothing to do with being a skeptic or open-minded, it is the attitude of the brainless.

We just found hobbits and giants. Who's to say what the roots of such legends might be? Is it your position that all discoveries have been made? Should we listen only to your version of what's possible? Should we ignore history just because you say so?

As for dowsing, I find it interesting that one of the only topics that I have a fairly firm opinion, and you come back time again. I said right away that my opinion was based on personal experience - I have no proof, just the word of a couple of family members who are sure that it works for them. Your attack is dishonest and unrepresentive of what I said.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Dowsing

lthough many scientists claim that proof of dowsing exists, I am not convinced that this evidence meets the standards required to be accepted as genuine by the scientific community. For this reason I am posting here rather than in the Credible Anomalies thread. Personally, I think dowsing does work for some, at times, but this is based on my own perceptions and observations, and not scientific evidence. I believe that my dad and uncle have both done this many times, but since there were no controls I can't trust that my opinion is correct. I know that they believe it works. In fact, my dad was shocked when I told him that this is not generally accepted as credible. As a retired engineer who has little to no interest in fringe subjects, he was quite bothered by this. He never knew. Finally he shrugged and said something like, oh well, I know it works.
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=60054

Last edited by Ivan Seeking : 01-19-2005 at 06:58 PM

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=5196&page=2&pp=15

 

[poolwin2001]

Perhaps we might assume that people described what they saw; rather than construct all sorts of convoluted arguments based completely on conjecture. I prefer parsimonious arguments.

All cultures speak of magicians/sorcerrers,Gods,etc Do you believe that they too are real.
But maybe they indicate that ancient civillizations were in contact with each other?

 

[mouseonmoon]

has anyone ever read "Bel and The Dragon"? It's in the Bible ,well, depends on what 'version' you use; wasn't in my KJ,but first found it in my girl friend's 'Catholic Bible'. It's a great little 'book' that tells of a group of priests who designed a 'Dragon' (actually a large statue of) and hoodwinked the locals into bringing their 'offerings'...quite a scam that the Hebrews 'exposed', sending the con artists running off to parts unknown.

Understand that the 'locals' actually believed this-a very elaborate 'hoax'-even 'skeptics' were 'fooled' by these 'priests' and came to 'believe' -this is a brilliant and illuminating story.

Just a thought, but where'd these 'priests' come from and where'd they go-
could this account for some of these 'stories'?

(btw remember Moses dealing with the Egyptian 'priests'-they turned their staffs into snakes- You may think this is all hokum rather than 'hocus pocus'--yet the 'prophets' were trained in magic for the purpose of 'exposing' other 'false prophets/magicians--where'd this 'tradition' come from?)

The human imagination is a Wonder in 'itself'--Alexander's troops would burn 'hemp bushes' in their fires (the mind boggles! think "Peter, Paul and Mary"'s "Puff the Magik...")...there's a history of all sorts of 'herbs and spices and mushrooms mixed with wine' etc. There's allegorical,mythological and visionary 'thinking'-consider Jospeh Campbell's 'Hero with a Thousand Faces'-'stories' from all over the world are certified "human" (even Velikovsky found an astounding number of 'stories' relating to 'the Flood' etc), and what to make of Jung's "archtypes"?

Some are just born with the 'gift of music', or a 'poetic genius', or math, or become 'simply mad as a hatter' (the chemicals that were used 'in the trade' caused this).

Around 150 AD a Greek fellow wrote a 'tour guide' of the ancient world, what 'bones' of who you could find at the Temples and other 'places of interest'. Some 'myths' are believed to be found in the bones of mammoths and dinosaurs that were 'revered' and displayed (looks like a 'leg bone' of a giant to me! The Cyclops skull 'for sure'!).

These 'guys' were not idiots though--and through the ages if they had not 'made mistakes' and someone corrected them--certainly i'd be 'making the same' mistakes/conclusions again. We find brilliant thinking on one hand and perhaps complete absurdity in the next paragraph. What to make of Josephus c100 AD still telling about the Egyptian priests still believing the 'myth of the Phoenix'-they actually see and celebrate this 'event' when it happens...yet we can understand today when he says, 'to this very day one can still see the pillar of salt that was Lot's wife'...(heck, there were 'tour guides' even in the '50's that could show you the 'pillar'--and if you wandered off on your own you might find a number of 'candidates' of equal 'likeness' today-or so I've read)

And there's a problem of taking things out of context--and then some other reader considers an exert in another light--we might end up with someone thinking Swift's "Modest Proposal" was serious-and dig up his bones and burn 'em in protest.

I find all of this fascinating--horned toads squirting blood from their eyes (saw it recently on NG, and they looked just like the horned toads i had as 'pets'!)

Furthermore, it seems to me that 'Comets' were/or may have been referred to as 'Dragons'...


As i suggested (a bit tongue in cheek) we might be able to 'freak out the Chinese' by a 'Dragon' display with our 'superior technology'...actually I'm afriad 'our magician/spooks' might be able to pull it off on U.S.!

I have a "Popular Mechaincs" zine from c70 that says we should all be flying around in back-pack helicopter suits by now--no more traffic jams! but that pales to the anti-gravity bleep bleep bleep

connection breaking up-
later-i hope!

Ralph Waldo Emerson:

The religion that is afraid of science dishonors God and commits suicide.

+++++
i messed up on "Bel and the Dragon" --i combined two events--there actually was a 'living Dragon'! here's the 'story' on-line:

http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?new=1&word=bel+1&version=nrs

these 'events' were during the Babylonian captivity (as the Book of Daniel); note that scholars date the Book of Daniel about 250 BC--some 250 years after the events.
Furthermore, "Daniel" is considered as part of 'The Writings' by the Hebrews, as is the Book of JoB, etc. > the point being, only 'literalists' would take these books 'literally'...


*

 

[arildno]

The idea that there may have been something akin to dragons about at one time is not that far fetched. You do believe in dinosaurs right? or do you consider that nonsense as well?

Why should I disbelieve actual skeletons which has been found?
But, we have, as far as I know, NO attested findings of dinosaurs prior to the 18th century.
If the remains of dinosaurs had been crucial in the development of dragon legends, then it is really odd that no such remains have been preserved, or even mentioned in reliable sources.

I am fully convinced that if a culture with dragon legends happened to find a tooth or thigh-bone of a T-Rex, then those remains would have been regarded as evidence of dragons by that culture.
Also, I am quite certain that if such a relic were found in a culture without pre-existing dragon legends, that find MIGHT spur the people to develop such ideas.

However, unless you can point your finger at concrete findings of dinosaur remains in cultures with dragon legends, your theory remains completely conjectural.

I chose to focus on attested facts in human attitudes&emotions, and tried to tie that, however unsuccessfully, with the evolution of stories about dragons.

Now, ask yourself the following question:
Why do monsters (dragons, for example) in tales tend to be huge?
(If you don't accept that as a fact, how many legends do you know of with butter-fly sized monsters?)

All I said about that particular facet, is that the sense of fear and awe such a monster often brings into a tale might be seen to stem from the similar sense with which we tend to regard big creatures we meet in real life.

IvanSeeking thought that was irrelevant in the evolution of dragon legends.

 

[Kerrie]

We just found hobbits and giants. Who's to say what the roots of such legends might be? Is it your position that all discoveries have been made? Should we listen only to your version of what's possible? Should we ignore history just because you say so?

If you want to bring up openmindedness perhaps you should take a lesson first, or perhaps a lesson in not insulting people should be in order before that.

I think you both summed this up quite well. In order to discover, we first need an open mind, not so open that your brains fall out as a former mentor used to say around here

It's one thing to be skeptical, but another to take the "there is no proof, thus it doesn't exist" attitude. We just discovered that little people once existed on this planet, a huge discovery for us since we as a society will be so quick to call ourselves "advanced".

Ivan, thank you for being a pioneer in discussions of these subjects, I know how much flack you receive for it. But if it weren't for those who question beyond our limits, we would still be bounded by them.

 

[K.J.Healey]

has anyone ever read "Bel and The Dragon"? It's in the Bible ,well, depends on what 'version' you use; wasn't in my KJ,but first found it in my girl friend's 'Catholic Bible'. It's a great little 'book' that tells of a group of priests who designed a 'Dragon' (actually a large statue of) and hoodwinked the locals into bringing their 'offerings'...quite a scam that the Hebrews 'exposed', sending the con artists running off to parts unknown.

Understand that the 'locals' actually believed this-a very elaborate 'hoax'-even 'skeptics' were 'fooled' by these 'priests' and came to 'believe' -this is a brilliant and illuminating story.

Just a thought, but where'd these 'priests' come from and where'd they go-
could this account for some of these 'stories'?

(btw remember Moses dealing with the Egyptian 'priests'-they turned their staffs into snakes- You may think this is all hokum rather than 'hocus pocus'--yet the 'prophets' were trained in magic for the purpose of 'exposing' other 'false prophets/magicians--where'd this 'tradition' come from?)

The human imagination is a Wonder in 'itself'--Alexander's troops would burn 'hemp bushes' in their fires (the mind boggles! think "Peter, Paul and Mary"'s "Puff the Magik...")...there's a history of all sorts of 'herbs and spices and mushrooms mixed with wine' etc. There's allegorical,mythological and visionary 'thinking'-consider Jospeh Campbell's 'Hero with a Thousand Faces'-'stories' from all over the world are certified "human" (even Velikovsky found an astounding number of 'stories' relating to 'the Flood' etc), and what to make of Jung's "archtypes"?

Some are just born with the 'gift of music', or a 'poetic genius', or math, or become 'simply mad as a hatter' (the chemicals that were used 'in the trade' caused this).

Around 150 AD a Greek fellow wrote a 'tour guide' of the ancient world, what 'bones' of who you could find at the Temples and other 'places of interest'. Some 'myths' are believed to be found in the bones of mammoths and dinosaurs that were 'revered' and displayed (looks like a 'leg bone' of a giant to me! The Cyclops skull 'for sure'!).

These 'guys' were not idiots though--and through the ages if they had not 'made mistakes' and someone corrected them--certainly i'd be 'making the same' mistakes/conclusions again. We find brilliant thinking on one hand and perhaps complete absurdity in the next paragraph. What to make of Josephus c100 AD still telling about the Egyptian priests still believing the 'myth of the Phoenix'-they actually see and celebrate this 'event' when it happens...yet we can understand today when he says, 'to this very day one can still see the pillar of salt that was Lot's wife'...(heck, there were 'tour guides' even in the '50's that could show you the 'pillar'--and if you wandered off on your own you might find a number of 'candidates' of equal 'likeness' today-or so I've read)

And there's a problem of taking things out of context--and then some other reader considers an exert in another light--we might end up with someone thinking Swift's "Modest Proposal" was serious-and dig up his bones and burn 'em in protest.

I find all of this fascinating--horned toads squirting blood from their eyes (saw it recently on NG, and they looked just like the horned toads i had as 'pets'!)

Furthermore, it seems to me that 'Comets' were/or may have been referred to as 'Dragons'...


As i suggested (a bit tongue in cheek) we might be able to 'freak out the Chinese' by a 'Dragon' display with our 'superior technology'...actually I'm afriad 'our magician/spooks' might be able to pull it off on U.S.!

I have a "Popular Mechaincs" zine from c70 that says we should all be flying around in back-pack helicopter suits by now--no more traffic jams! but that pales to the anti-gravity bleep bleep bleep

connection breaking up-
later-i hope!

Ralph Waldo Emerson:

The religion that is afraid of science dishonors God and commits suicide.

This is all 'interesting'. I especially 'like' the 'idea' of 'dragons'='comets'.

I would just like to ask the question though, why would dragons breathe fire? Evolutionarily speaking, there doesn't seem to be much reason for them to have it. They were huge predators that had no known enemies. Its like going into the forest and teaching lions how to use machine guns, its pointless.
Unless it was for inner-species competition.
Regardless, there haven't been any dragon fossils found yet that are similar to those of myth, have there? I mean, even any that people speculate to be dragons.

Also remember that what's speculated are quite large animals. You might be able to prove mathematically that they could not have been that large, and flown. Given muscle density, approximate wingspan and muscle thickness, dragon size, and so forth, they might not have been able to sustain flight unless they were a few meters in wingspan max. Muscle strength is proportional to the muscle cross section, while weight is proportional to its volume.

 

[arildno]

mouseonmoon:
Thanks for your great post.
In particular, thanks for the historical references.
It reminds me of how Norwegian fishermen were able to sell off horns from the narwhal as horns of the unicorn..

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

If the remains of dinosaurs had been crucial in the development of dragon legends, then it is really odd that no such remains have been preserved, or even mentioned in reliable sources.

Dragons (Chinese: long) are a potent and prominent symbol in Chinese culture. The origin of the dragon image is unknown because it is so ancient. However, it is not unreasonable to assume that some of the massive fossilized bones encountered in several parts of China, including dinosaur and mammoth bones, were thought by ancient people to be those of huge dragons.

Dragon bones (longgu) and dragon teeth (longchi) were recorded in the Shennong Bencao Jing (ca. 100 A.D.) and were especially valued for their treatment of spirit disorders (1):

http://www.itmonline.org/arts/dragonbone.htm
Perhaps the usage of these "dragon bones" for medicinal purposes could explain the lack of preserved evidence. :-)

 

[Ivan Seeking]

It's one thing to be skeptical, but another to take the "there is no proof, thus it doesn't exist" attitude. We just discovered that little people once existed on this planet, a huge discovery for us since we as a society will be so quick to call ourselves "advanced".

And that's the key. There is a big difference between asking questions, considering alternate explanations, and making claims. No claims were made less those who would have us believe that they know the correct explanation. As if a wild guess that seems to make sense must be the only possible answer. This is the teaching a religion, not science. It is saying that since we don't know an answer, we'll just make one up and call it a fact.

As well as unicorn horns and snake oil, we also find a plethora of real phenomena that was reported for decades, or even centuries, before proven or accepted as real. As mentioned, the Credible Anomalies thread list some of the most current examples.

As for bones: The original article that I read suggested that the chemistry of such an animal might cause rapid decomposition. Also, as with the hobbits, the bones of some unrecognized creature may still be waiting in a cave. Next, as mentioned earlier, we might be talking about some remnant from an age gone by. This need not be something so incredible really. Myths and legends may or may not be accurate representations of any real phenomenon; or in this case, a beast. It could be a partial truth with only hints of reality as a basis, or it may be exactly as described, or a myth may be a complete fabrication.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

All cultures speak of magicians/sorcerrers,Gods,etc Do you believe that they too are real.
But maybe they indicate that ancient civillizations were in contact with each other?

magicians/sorcerers: This often relates to medicine men/women, and similar concepts. So, if you are asking if I believe, for example, that plants indicated in ancient treatments really work to treat disease and injuries? Of course. Or, were there people of high social rank who possessed valuable, secret information? Absolutely. Magic was often nothing more than basic science at work. Ironic, isn't it?

The possibility of contact between civilizations earlier than thought is also an interesting one.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Oh yes, in a sense Komodo Dragons are "fire breathing"; at least there is something uniquely dangerous about their saliva: It is loaded with bacteria which is what often kills the dragon's prey. I have wondered a bit if this could somehow account for the fire breathing legends. Also, could these dragons have lived outside of the Indonesian islands, with some surviving until a few hundred years ago?

 

[Danger]

This is my first venture into this forum. Nobody seemed to be doing anything in GD or GP, and the title caught my eye. I don't have time to read most of the foregoing -- a half dozen or so posts -- but thought that you might be interested in this. Although he certainly doesn't purport that dragons really existed, Larry Niven (one of the gods of hard SF) detailed how they could. I can't remember which book it was in, or exact details. Basically, it was thus:
large reptillian lifeform that reprocesses its gastrointestinal methane and stores pure hydrogen in a cavity similar to the swim bladder in a fish; bouyancy allows it to float like a balloon, so small wings are enough for propulsion and manoeuvring; fire breathing is achieved by releasing some of the hydrogen in a jet and igniting it by gnashing its teeth, which incorporate iron pyrite instead of calcium in their enamel
I think that there's even more to it than that, but you see what I mean.
I'm outta here now; have fun.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

HCl is common in nature. Methane is also common. The author in Omni suggested that as cave dwellers, spontaneous combustion of accumulated gases might by considered a potential explanation for dragons "breathing fire".

Btw, I read Omni for many years and this is one of the few articles that really stuck with me over the years. In some ways it makes sense given the legends. Now, not only do we find hobbits, but we find them where we find real [Komodo] dragons; not to mention dwarfed island elephants! That is a pretty amazing coincidence, don't you think? How can one not wonder?

Something else noted, at least as reported by some scientists in the pop science media, is that Neanderthals were more advanced than previously thought. Apparently they appreciated symbolism; as seen in some burial sites. Might we have advanced religious or mythical symbolism long before we believe possible; allowing for the most ancient myths to be common to otherwise separate cultures?

 

[Bladibla]

HCl is common in nature. Methane is also common. The author in Omni suggested that as cave dwellers, spontaneous combustion of accumulated gases might by considered a potential explanation for dragons "breathing fire".

Btw, I read Omni for many years and this is one of the few articles that really stuck with me over the years. In some ways it makes sense given the legends. Now, not only do we find hobbits, but we find them where we find real [Komodo] dragons; not to mention dwarfed island elephants! That is a pretty amazing coincidence, don't you think? How can one not wonder?

Something else noted, at least as reported by some scientists in the pop science media, is that Neanderthals were more advanced than previously thought. Apparently they appreciated symbolism; as seen in some burial sites. Might we have advanced religious or mythical symbolism long before we believe possible; allowing for the most ancient myths to be common to otherwise separate cultures?

I'm not so sure with the dragon talk. I don't think each culture which has in the past showed these pictures of 'dragons' really mean the same thing.

If dragons did exist in the past, why would they look any different portraits of different cultures? The fact that they do look slightly different could mean that they are not emphasising the same type of creature.

I mean, the oriental/Chinese Dragon is often described as to be a long, serpentine creature, with scales, and very often a 'ball' in their mouth which grants people wishes. On the pther hand, we often see the Western dragon as a enormous lizard with wings, breathing fire, green, and chomping up knights

I come from a oriental country, and although even experience might prove me wrong, we have never depicted our 'dragon' in the same way. Often in legends of our countries birth, we would have a dragon with the depiction of having a chickens head. Now that's not the western dragon sterotype, is it?

But i would like to see 'dragons', meaning of a giant green creature that flies and breathes fire shown to have exist, because that would be awesome

 

[hypatia]

http://www.ancientspiral.com/dragon.htm

 

[godzilla7]

I remember reading somewhere that the fact that many cultures have a 'Dragon' mixed up in there mythology, was due to a memory of our distant ancestors of dinosaurs themselves that was passed down through our genome to this day; kind of like an instinctual fear of the dinosaur, from our scurrying ancestors, this could account for the racial memory they proposed. Sounds a bit far fetched but who knows?