Understanding Flux: Does it Have a Unit?

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In summary, Flux is the number of electric field lines per unit area and is proportional to the number of field lines. However, there is no way to physically count these lines. The real definition of flux is given in terms of the magnetic field, and the units of flux are determined by the units of the magnetic field and the area at right angles to it. The concept of "field lines" is just a visual representation and does not have a physical existence. Additionally, the stress tensor and pressure vector have different units and their relationship is often misunderstood.
  • #1
Brajesh kedia
Flux is the no. Of electric field lines per unit area..how can it have a unit
 
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  • #2
Area always has a unit. Cm2, M2, Ft2, etc.
 
  • #3
Also keep in mind that the flux is *proportional* to the number of field lines. It's not just a number.
 
  • #4
Drakkith said:
Area always has a unit. Cm2, M2, Ft2, etc.

Sure. Tell this to the mechanical engineers, students, professors, and text writers alike, attempting to explain the stress tensor and the pressure vector. Area, for these indocrinated, is unitless.
 
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  • #5
Frankly speaking i have not got ur answers
 
  • #6
Total Flux as explained is no of lines of electric field through a surface
 
  • #7
Brajesh kedia said:
Frankly speaking i have not got ur answers

Then you need to explain more about what you don't understand.
 
  • #8
Brajesh kedia said:
Flux is the no. Of electric field lines per unit area..how can it have a unit
No, the flux is not defined in terms of number of lines. There is no way to count these lines, they don't have a physical existence. Not more than the longitude lines, for example. The reference to the number of lines (if it is used at all) is just to offer some sort of intuitive understanding of the flux. In this case it should be said that the flux is proportional to the number of field lines.

The real definition is for example here (for magnetic field):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_flux
 
  • #9
As you say, nasu, there is no such thing as a 'field line'; it's just a way of visualising things. Magnetic flux Φ is just BA, where B is the field and A is the area at right angles to the field vector.
 
  • #10
Of some historical interest: A "line" is an obsolete unit of magnetic flux density. 1 line = 1e-8 weber [Wb].
 
  • #11
The units are pretty clear from the definition.
 
  • #12
stedwards said:
Sure. Tell this to the mechanical engineers, students, professors, and text writers alike, attempting to explain the stress tensor and the pressure vector. Area, for these indocrinated, is unitless.
Are you saying that engineers don't regard the stress tensor as having units of force per unit area?

Chet
 
  • #13
nasu said:
No, the flux is not defined in terms of number of lines. There is no way to count these lines, they don't have a physical existence. Not more than the longitude lines, for example. The reference to the number of lines (if it is used at all) is just to offer some sort of intuitive understanding of the flux. In this case it should be said that the flux is proportional to the number of field lines.

The real definition is for example here (for magnetic field):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_flux

I thought flux was quantified with the Poynting Vector, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poynting_vector . And regarding physical existence: Is it not the flux of the E and B fields that propagate at c ?
 
  • #14
Chestermiller said:
Are you saying that engineers don't regard the stress tensor as having units of force per unit area? Chet

Oh, no. It's worse than that. The pressure tensor [itex]\sigma[/itex], or pressure matrix is a linear map. It takes a vector, normal to an area [itex]a[/itex] and spit-out a pressure [itex]P[/itex].

[itex]P= \sigma \cdot a[/itex]

Pressure has units of pressure. That's easy enough. Area has units area. Properly speaking, the stress tensor has units of Force per Length^4.

Maybe you don't like the idea of the area normal having units of area, and want it to have units of length. Now the stress tensor has different units, but these units are not pressure.
 
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  • #15
stedwards said:
Oh, no. It's worse than that. The pressure tensor [itex]\sigma[/itex], or pressure matrix is a linear map. It takes a vector, normal to an area [itex]a[/itex] and spit-out a pressure [itex]P[/itex].

[itex]P= \sigma \cdot a[/itex]

Pressure has units of pressure. That's easy enough. Area has units area. Properly speaking, the stress tensor has units of Force per Length^4.

Maybe you don't like the idea of the area normal having units of area, and want it to have units of length. Now the stress tensor has different units, but these units are not pressure.
As an engineer with over 50 years of experience in solid mechanics and fluid mechanics, I can assure you that your recollection about this is not correct. The Cauchy stress relationship specifies dotting the stress tensor with a unit normal vector to an area to spit-out the traction vector (or stress vector) acting on the area. The pressure tensor is the isotropic part of the stress tensor. If the stress tensor happens to be isotropic (as in the case of a fluid at hydrostatic equilibrium, for example), the dot product of the stress tensor with the unit normal gives you the hydrostatic pressure p times the unit normal. So, since the stress tensor is being dotted with a unit normal, the units of the pressure vector are still force per unit area. I think what you are referring to is that if you dot the stress tensor with a unit normal times a differential element of area dA, you obtain the differential force acting on that area. In this case, the units of the differential force are those of force (since the area units cancel out).

Chet
 
  • #16
As an engineer with a wee bit less than 50 years of experience, I invite you balance the units as well as the variables.
For the equation [itex]P[F/A] = A[D^2] \sigma[F/A][/itex], the units do not balance. Units are in square brackets.

F =Force
P=Pressure
A=Distance^2

Everything you learned in school is wrong.
 
  • #17
Brajesh kedia said:
Flux is the no. Of electric field lines per unit area..how can it have a unit
From my text : The units of the Poynting Vector, S = 1/μ0 E x B are in watts/meter2
From S = dU/dtA =EBAdx/μ0 c(dx/c)A
S in direction of EM wave propagation.
 
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  • #18
stedwards said:
As an engineer with a wee bit less than 50 years of experience, I invite you balance the units as well as the variables.
For the equation [itex]P[F/A] = A[D^2] \sigma[F/A][/itex], the units do not balance. Units are in square brackets.

F =Force
P=Pressure
A=Distance^2

Everything you learned in school is wrong.
The correct equation is not ##\vec{P}=\vec{σ}\centerdot \vec{a}##. The correct equation is ##\vec{F}=\vec{σ}\centerdot \vec{a}##, where vector ##\vec{F}## is the force acting on the area, not the pressure. Now, if you continue issuing this string of misinformation, you will be receiving infraction points, which can lead to a ban from Physics Forums.

Chet
 
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  • #19
Please note i just know about total electric flux(means flow) stating that no. Of electric field lines which i myself believe cannot be counted and if counted cannot have unit..please explain?
 
  • #20
Repeating the question is not going to help, I'm afraid.
 
  • #21
Chestermiller said:
The correct equation is not ##\vec{P}=\vec{σ}\centerdot \vec{a}##. The correct equation is ##\vec{F}=\vec{σ}\centerdot \vec{a}##, where vector ##\vec{F}## is the force acting on the area, not the pressure. Now, if you continue issuing this string of misinformation, you will be receiving infraction points, which can lead to a ban from Physics Forums.

Chet

Thank you for your kind correction.
 
  • #22
Can no one explain?
 
  • #23
The explanation has already been given a a few times here. If your book defines flux as number of field lines the book is wrong.
 

FAQ: Understanding Flux: Does it Have a Unit?

Can flux have a unit?

Yes, flux can have a unit. It is defined as the flow of a physical quantity through a given surface, and the unit of flux is determined by the unit of the physical quantity.

What are the common units of flux?

The common units of flux depend on the type of flux being measured. For example, electric flux is measured in volts per meter squared (V/m2), while magnetic flux is measured in webers (Wb).

Is flux a vector or a scalar quantity?

Flux can be either a vector or a scalar quantity, depending on the type of flux being measured. For example, electric flux is a vector quantity, while magnetic flux is a scalar quantity.

How is flux related to the concept of flow rate?

Flux and flow rate are closely related concepts, as both involve the flow of a physical quantity through a given surface. Flux is the amount of the quantity that flows through the surface per unit time, while flow rate is the volume or mass of the quantity that flows through the surface per unit time.

Can flux have negative values?

Yes, flux can have negative values. This typically occurs when the direction of the flow is reversed, resulting in a negative value for the flux. For example, if the electric flux is entering a closed surface, it will have a negative value.

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