Understanding Planetary Rotation: Exploring Spin and Orbit Direction

[luckis11]

First question:

"The planets spin in the same direction they orbit". What does that mean?: A roulette ball (when rotating inside the roulette) spins in the same direction it orbits, or in the opposite direction it orbits?

 

[mgb_phys]

Imagine the planets are wheels running on a track (with the track on the sun side of the planet) they rotate in the same way as the wheels

 

[luckis11]

I don't understand what you mean. Can you please answer my question EXACTLY as I formulated it?

 

[mgb_phys]

A roulette ball rotates with it's rotation axis point toward the center - planets don't rotate like that. They rotate in the same way as ball bearing in a cage.

 

[phyzguy]

If I look down on the solar system from above the Earth's north pole, the planets revolve around the sun in a counterclockwise direction. Seen from this vantage point, most of the planets are also spinning in a counterclockwise direction. However, this is not strictly true. Venus' spin is retrograde, meaning from the above viewpoint it would be spinning clockwise (albeit slowly). Uranus axis is tipped over on its side, so that its spin axis is nearly in the same plane as the planets orbit.

 

[luckis11]

"The planets spin in the same direction they orbit". What does that mean?: A roulette ball spins in the same direction it orbits, or in the opposite direction it orbits? So,there are only 2 possible ways:

No1.) The planets spin in the same direction as the roulette ball
No2.) In the opposite direction

What applies for the planets? No1 or No2?

 

[phyzguy]

Why the obsession with the roulette wheel? Go back and re-read mgb_phys' post. As he says, the axis of rotation of the ball on a roulette wheel is in the plane of the roulette wheel's rotation. This is not how the planets rotate.

 

[luckis11]

Why should be a puzzle to understand what you mean? The more easy is to undertsand a teacher, the better teacher he is. Is there an IQ competition in here that one prooves he is clever when he solves the puzzle of what others mean?

It's indefferent whether the roulette wheel is moving or not, as what defines the problem is simply that the ball is moving on the non-moving wall of the roulette. Why don't you answer my question with a "No1 or No2"? Because neither of No1 or No2 applies? Why? Forget it, I will not understand you. Please stop posting so someone else does.

 

[Calluuuum]

Firstly, no need to get annoyed when people are only trying to help.

Secondly, (no offense) your question is rather stupid.

The planets spin in the same direction they orbit

A roulette ball spins in the same direction it orbits

You've just said the same thing just replacing the noun. Why would there be another option to something you just repeated?

The planets spin in the same direction they orbit. This explains itself. If the planet orbits counter-clockwise, it spins counter-clockwise. While not entirely true (axis tilts vary the actuall spin direction for some planets), it's an ok guideline.

 

[luckis11]

It seems that you did not understand what I meant. I try again:

The roulette ball spins at a particular direction in relation to the direction of its linear motion (linear motion=the rotation around the roulette wall). One possible case is No1, which is what happens with the roulette ball. But the direction of its spin could be the the opposite of what it is, which is possible case No2. Possible case No2 does not happen with the roulette ball, but I am asking whether it happens regarding the planets.

POSSIBLE CASE No1:

here (up) is the roulette's wall

<----
(ball) ------------>this is the direction of the liner motion of the ball
---->

here (down) is the centre of the circle of the roulette.

POSSIBLE CASE No2:

here (up) is the roulette's wall

---->
(ball) ------------>this is the direction of the liner motion of the ball
<----

here (down) is the centre of the circle of the roulette.

 

[Calluuuum]

Look at the circles formed when you draw them out. You get option one, where they are going in opposite directions (clockwise around the roulette vs anti clockwise ball rotation), option two is both going clockwise. Now I'd like you to point out which refers to them spinning the same direction. Then I'd like you to point out how many times this has been said, by several different people. It doesn't take much to work out when two things are spinning clockwise or anti clockwise.

 

[luckis11]

Again you are not lucid. You want me to agree that what you all say is lucid? No, it's not, it's a quiz to finger out what you mean. If it was lucid I would have no problem grasping it. Why not simply answer to my question: What applies for the planets, No1 or No2?

 

[Calluuuum]

You don't learn by having everyone give you the answer. The answer is very clear, it's been stated several times, now it's your turn to read what everyone has said. It doesn't take much effort to apply what everyone has said to your own examples. Read what I said before and actually do what it says, you'll be able to work it out yourself. You seem to be actually refusing to see it in another way. If that is how you want it though, fine, it applies to number two. This is where the ball is spinning CLOCKWISE and the orbit is CLOCKWISE. Notice how the words are the same? That's because they're spinning in the same direction.

 

[luckis11]

Now you made it clear. I read the posts again. They are not lucid. The lucid is: "When the planets are seen to rotate around the sun clockwise, they spin clockwise. Whereas when the roulette ball is seen to rotate around the roulette wheel clockwise, it spins anti-clockwise". Or: "The planets spin in the same direction with the direction of their rotation around the sun. Whereas the roulette ball spins in the opposite direction of the direction of its rotation around the roulette wheel".

 

[DaveC426913]

Now you made it clear. I read the posts again. They are not lucid. The lucid is that "when the roulette ball is rotating around the roulette wheel clockwise, the roulette ball is spinning anti-clockwise. And when the planets rotate around the sun clockwise, they spin clockwise".

Yes, luckis, it's our failing that you aren't understanding...

Frankly, I have no idea what the importance of the roulette wheel is. I have no idea which way the ball on a roulette wheel turns when it goes around the wheel, so I have no idea whether planets go the same way or the opposite way.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I have no idea which way the ball on a roulette wheel turns when it goes around the wheel

If it rolls, it's orthogonal to the wheel direction. Another reason this is only adding confusion.

 

[DaveC426913]

If you look down from the North Pole of the Solar System, all of the planets go around the Sun counterclockwise.

Simply put, most planets also rotate about their own axis counterclockwise. (Not all do. Mercury rotates clockwise. Uranus' axis is tilted over so far that it actually lies on its side.)

 

[DaveC426913]

If it rolls, it's orthogonal to the wheel direction. Another reason this is only adding confusion.

But if it rolls, its axis of rotation is horizontal, not vertical. So it is meaningless to talk about whether the ball revolves clockwise or counterclockwise.

[EDIT]... which is precisely what you just said... :blush:[/EDIT]

 

[DaveC426913]

Luckis, please please the attached diagram, then go back and read the thread. You should understand why your questions couldn't be answered the way you wanted them to. The Solar System does not behave the same way a Roulette Wheel does.

 

[luckis11]

The motion of the roulette ball of the first case of your drawing, happens (also happens?) when the ball has slowed down and is rolling on the metal floor which has the the numbers drawn on it. When it "flies" pressing against the wooden vertical wall and does not roll on the floor, the second case of your drawing happens. Actually, even when moving on (the not exactly horizontal) floor, the first case does happen without the second case happening also. Am I correct?

 

[luckis11]

Second question: See:

http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/goals/video/video=1246517/index.html (at the end of the video, also see it at youtube.
(at the middle of the video)

The billiards teacher says that an anti-clockwise spin causes a clockwise ... orbit of the billiard ball. That is, exactly what happens with the roulette ball, and the opposite of what happens with the planets. But at Maicon's goal it seems to me (not clear at all though) that it happens exactly the opposite of what the billiards teacher say. According to that billiards teacher, I should see (from our side of view) the tringle-like signs on the ball move away from the the goalnets, but it seems to me they are moving towards the goalnets. I see wrongly? Anyone knows for sure? A soccer or a playstation player should know.

Please answer exactly to what I am asking and do not relate the answer to other subjects regarding the motion of the planets. It's solely a soccer and billiards ball question.

 

[DaveC426913]

Please answer exactly to what I am asking and do not relate the answer to other subjects regarding the motion of the planets. It's solely a soccer and billiards ball question.

luckis, why is it that you expect us to do all the work? You are coming here with questions because you don't know how things work. We're happy to help, but we don't spoonfeed here. We'll set you on the right path and it is up to you, to connect the dots that you want to see connected. We'll confirm or correct.

Your current method of query will not get you much farther here; I guarantee it. You need to adapt.



A roulette table and a billiard table are not - as you are finding - good models for the motions of the planets; they operate on different principles. The ball's rotation in this case is caused by friction - an opposing force to the direction of overall rotation. This results in the ball's rotation to be opposite its motion around the table.

A better model might be eddies and whirlpools in a stream. In this case, the direction of the main whirlpool and any satellite whirlpools stem from the same case: the overall angular momentum of the water. This is true of the planets as well. Their direction around the sun and their rotation about their axes are two manifestations of the same overall angular momentum - which is why they go in the same direction.

 

[luckis11]

Did you just say that when we put a ping-pong ball in a water vortex then the direction of its spin in relation to its linear motion (orbital rotation) resembles that of the planets (=when the spin is clockwise the orbital rotation is clockwise) and not that of the roulette ball (=when the spin is anti-clockwise the orbital rotation is clockwise)?

 

[DaveC426913]

Did you just say that when we put a ping-pong ball in a water vortex then the direction of its spin in relation to its linear motion (orbital rotation) resembles that of the planets (=when the spin is clockwise the orbital rotation is clockwise) and not that of the roulette ball (=when the spin is anti-clockwise the orbital rotation is clockwise)?

No. There are no ping pong balls.

The vortices themselves are what I'm looking at. Do not think of the planets as ping pong balls floating in a rotating disc. Think of the planets as smaller vortices in a large whirlpool.

If you have a giant vortex of water spinning clockwise, and smaller vortices break off, these smaller vortices will tend to also be clockwise (It's not a perfect analogy, some vortices will break off in a counterclockwise direction).

What I'm trying to show you is that the mechanism that is imparting these vortices with their angular momentum is also imparting its smaller components with angular momentum in the same direction.

This is because the planets formed from a coalescing cloud of dust and gas. This cloud had some initial angular momentum that is preserved as the cloud coalesced, and this angular momentum is the cause for both forms of movement.

 

[luckis11]

Can you give me the links which show that small vortices which are rotating in a larger vortex, are spinning clockwise when they are orbiting-rotating clockwise around the large vortex?

Question 3: All the planets are rotating around the sun towards the same direction? (this question has nothing to do with what the direction of their spin is).

 

[DaveC426913]

Can you give me the links which show that small vortices which are rotating in a larger vortex, are spinning clockwise when they are orbiting-rotating clockwise around the large vortex?

Not really. It's not the strongest analogy; I just haven;t thought of anything else.

Question 3: All the planets are rotating around the sun towards the same direction? (this question has nothing to do with what the direction of their spin is).

They are, yes.

Though not all bodies in the Solar System are. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_notable_asteroids#Retrograde_and_highly-inclined" have orbits that are greater than 90 degrees from the Solar plane (i.e they revolve clockwise).

 

[luckis11]

Not really. It's not the strongest analogy; I just haven;t thought of anything else.

Then where did you notice that this actually happens? (beside the planets)

 

[DaveC426913]

Then where did you notice that this actually happens?

I dunno, I deal with water a lot.