Universe is speeding up? Are we traveling with it? Dark Energy.

[PhaLynX]

Hi, new and pondering with much ignorance. Hence the question marks. Had to register!

Are we traveling, is our planet, solar system moving along with the universe expansion?
This question, statement, is prefaced on the theory that the universe is speeding up rather than slowing down.
I understand we have measurements of distance and time by looking at the light spectrum upon supernova explosions that have reached us? Calculating billions of years in some cases. Which has given us dark energy because the math didn't quite add up?

If the universe were created with a bang I'd assume everything in it is not necessarily traveling in the same direction? If a Sun were traveling in an opposite direction from us due to the Bang theory, would the math/distance be skewed in some way?

I'm trying to get my head around this. Measuring light and to derive distance from two stand still sources makes sense in my skull but when the objects are traveling away from one another at undetermined speed(btw do we know how fast we are hurling outwards through empty space and is everything in it traveling at the same speed? Direction? Are we moving?)it becomes difficult to imagine.

I think I painted a simple enough picture. So, is it fair to think of our Universe expansion being due to the one initial bang theory in a 3-D direction? And if so, is the math to determine the distance and time of the supernova explosion accurate if our planet, solar system is traveling along with this expansion? Are the stars light we see from billion of years ago possibly traveling away from us?

Thanks for bearing with me and any replies.

 

[davenn]

Are we traveling,

yes

is our planet, solar system moving along with the universe expansion?

no, our solar system is rotating/orbiting around the galactic centre as are the rest of the stars and objects in our galaxy

universal expansion isn't affecting individual stars within our galaxy ie. they are not getting further apart because of that expansion.
The expansion does affect the distance between individual galaxies or groups of galaxies.
Our galaxy is part of what is called the local group, some are moving apart, some are moving closer together. But the distance between our local group and other individual galaxies or groups of galaxies is changing because of the expansion of the universe

Dave

 

[Mordred]

The Big Bang also did not occur in an explosion. Instead it was a rapid expansion of space.

As your asking several questions relating to expansion and distance measures this article written by forum members will help.

EXPANSION AND REDSHIFT
1) What is outside the universe?
2) What is causing the expansion of the universe?
3) Is expansion, faster than light in parts of the Universe, and How does this not violate the faster than light speed limit?
4) What do we mean when an object leaves our universe?
5) What do we mean when we say homogeneous and isotropic?
6) Why is the CMB so vital in cosmology?
7) Why is the LambdaCDM so vital to cosmologists?
8) Why are all the galaxies accelerating from us?
9) Is Redshift the same as Doppler shift?
9) How do we measure the distance to galaxies?
10) What is a Cepheid or standard candle

These are some of the common questions I will attempt to address in the following article
First we must define some terms and symbols used.

Planck constant: $h\ =\ 6.62606876(52)\ \times\ 10^{-34}\ J\ s$
Gravitational constant: $G\ =\ 6.673(10)\ \times\ 10^{-11}\ m^{3} kg^{-1} s^{-2}$
Speed of light in a vacuum:$c\ =\ 2.99792458\ \times\ 10^{8}\ m\ s^{-1}$

The parsec (symbol: pc) is a unit of length used in astronomy, equal to about 30.9 trillion kilometers (19.2 trillion miles). In astronomical terms, it is equal to 3.26 light-years, and in scientific terms it is equal to 3.09×10¹³ kilometers
Mpc=1 million Parsecs

Universe: A generalized definition of the universe can be described as everything that is. In Cosmology the universe can be described as everything measurable in our space-time either directly or indirectly. This definition forms the basis of the observable universe. The Hot Big Bang model does not describe prior to 10^-43 seconds. The LambdaCDM or $\Lambda$CDM model is a fine tuned version of the general FLRW (Freidmann Lemaitre Robertson Walker) metrics, where the six observationally based model parameters are chosen for the best fit to our universe.

The Observable universe is 46 Billion light years, or 4.3×10²⁶ meters with an age as of 2013, is 13.772 ± 0.059 billion years.
In the hot big bang model we do not think of the universe as starting from a singularity (infinitely, hot, dense point) instead measurements agree space-time as simply expanding. That expansion is homogeneous and isotropic. If you were to take a telescope and look at the night sky, no matter where you look the universe looks the same or homogeneous meaning no preferred location. As you change directions with the telescope you will find that no matter which direction you look the universe looks the same or isotropic meaning no preferred direction. These terms in cosmology are only accurate at certain scales. Below 100Mpc it is obvious that the universe is inhomogeneous and anisotropic. As such objects as stars and galaxies reside in this scale. This also tells us that there is no center of the universe, as a center is a preferred location. These terms also describe expansion. Expansion will be covered in more detail in the Cosmological Redshift section. Whether or not the universe is finite or infinite is not known. However if it is infinite now so it must be in the beginning.
Common misconceptions arise when one tries to visualize a finite universe such questions include.

"So how do we see farther than 13.772 billion light years?" The answer lies in expansion; as light is traveling towards us, space-time has expanded.
“If the universe is finite what exists outside the Universe?" If you think about this question with the above definition of the universe you will realize that the question is meaningless. One accurate answer in regards to cosmology is nonexistent.
"What makes up the barrier between our universe and outside our universe?" The short answer is there is no barrier.


The CMB, (Cosmic Microwave Background) The CMB is thermal radiation filling the Observable universe almost uniformly, This provides strong evidence of the homogeneous and isotropic measurements and distances. As the universe expanded, both the plasma and the radiation filling it grew cooler. When the universe cooled enough, protons and electrons combined to form neutral atoms. These atoms could no longer absorb the thermal radiation, and so the universe became transparent instead of being an opaque fog. Precise measurements of cosmic background radiation are critical to cosmology, since any proposed model of the universe must explain this radiation. CMB photons were emitted at about 3000 Kelvin and are now 2.73 Kelvin blackbody radiation. Their currently observed energy is 1/1000th of their energy as emitted.

In order to measure an objects motion and distance in cosmology it is important to properly understand redshift, Doppler shift and gravitational redshift. Incorrect usage of any of these can lead to errors in our measurements.

Doppler shift and redshift are the same phenomenon in general relativity. However you will often see Doppler factored into components with different names used, as will be explained below. In all cases of Doppler, the light emitted by one body and received by the other will be red or blueshifted i.e. its wavelength will be stretched. So the color of the light is more towards the red or blue end of the spectrum. As shown by the formula below.

$$\frac{\Delta_f}{f} = \frac{\lambda}{\lambda_o} = \frac{v}{c}=\frac{E_o}{E}=\frac{hc}{\lambda_o} \frac{\lambda}{hc}$$

The Cosmological Redshift is a redshift attributed to the expansion of space. The expansion causes a Recession Velocity for galaxies (on average) that is proportional to DISTANCE.
A key note is expansion is the same throughout the cosmos. However gravity in galaxy clusters is strong enough to prevent expansion. In other words galaxy clusters are gravitationally bound. In regards to expansion it is important to realize that galaxies are not moving from us due to inertia, rather the space between two coordinates are expanding. One way to visualize this is to use a grid where each vertical and horizontal joint is a coordinate. The space between the coordinates increase rather than the coordinates changing. This is important in that no FORCE is acting upon the galaxies to cause expansion. As expansion is homogeneous and isotropic then there is no difference in expansion at one location or another. In the $\Lambda$CDM model expansion is attributed to the cosmological constant described later on. The rate a galaxy is moving from us is referred to as recession velocity. This recession velocity then produces a Doppler (red) shift proportional to distance (please note that this recession velocity must be converted to a relative velocity along the light path before it can be used in the Doppler formula). The further away an object is the greater the amount of redshift. This is given in accordance with Hubble’s Law. In order to quantify the velocity of this galactic movement, Hubble proposed Hubble's Law of Cosmic Expansion, aka Hubble's law, an equation that states:

Hubble’s Law: The greater the distance of measurement the greater the recessive velocity

Velocity = H₀ × distance.

Velocity represents the galaxy's recessive velocity; H₀ is the Hubble constant, or parameter that indicates the rate at which the universe is expanding; and distance is the galaxy's distance from the one with which it's being compared.

The Hubble Constant The Hubble “constant” is a constant only in space, not in time,the subscript ‘0’ indicates the value of the Hubble constant today and the Hubble parameter is thought to be decreasing with time. The current accepted value is 70 kilometers/second per mega parsec, or Mpc. The latter being a unit of distance in intergalactic space described above.
Any measurement of redshift above the Hubble distance defined as H₀ = 4300±400 Mpc will have a recessive velocity of greater than the speed of light. This does not violate GR because a recession velocity is not a relative velocity or an inertial velocity. It is precisely analogous to a separation speed. If, in one frame of reference, one object is moving east at .9c, and another west at .9c, they are separating by 1.8c. This is their recession velocity. Their relative velocity remains less than c. In cosmology, two things change from this simple picture: expansion can cause separation speeds much greater even than 2c; and relative velocity is not unique, but no matter what path it is compared along, it is always less than c, as expected.

z = (Observed wavelength - Rest wavelength)/(Rest wavelength) or more accurately

1+z= λ_observed/λ_emitted or z=(λ_observed-λ_emitted)/λ_emitted

$$1+Z=\frac{\lambda}{\lambda_o}$$ or $$1+Z=\frac{\lambda-\lambda_o}{\lambda_o}$$

λ₀= rest wavelength
Note that positive values of z correspond to increased wavelengths (redshifts).
Strictly speaking, when z < 0, this quantity is called a blueshift, rather than
a redshift. However, the vast majority of galaxies have z > 0. One notable blueshift example is the Andromeda Galaxy, which is gravitationally bound and approaching the Milky Way.
WMAP nine-year results give the redshift of photon decoupling as z=1091.64 ± 0.47 So if the matter that originally emitted the oldest CMBR photons has a present distance of 46 billion light years, then at the time of decoupling when the photons were originally emitted, the distance would have been only about 42 million light-years away.

Cosmological Constant is a homogeneous energy density that causes the expansion of the universe to accelerate. Originally proposed early in the development of general relativity in order to allow a static universe solution it was subsequently abandoned when the universe was found to be expanding. Now the cosmological constant is invoked to explain the observed acceleration of the expansion of the universe. The cosmological constant is the simplest realization of dark energy, which the more generic name is given to the unknown cause of the acceleration of the universe. Indeed what we term as "Dark" energy is an unknown energy that comprises most of the energy density of our cosmos around 73%. However the amount of dark energy per m³ is quite small. Some estimates are around about 6 × 10^-10 joules per cubic meter. However their is a lot of space between large scale clusters, so that small amount per m³ adds up to a significant amount of energy in total. In the De_Sitter FLRW metric (matter removed model)
this is described in the form.

H_o$\propto\sqrt\Lambda$

Another term often used for the cosmological constant is vacuum energy described originally by the false vacuum inflationary Model by A.Guth. The cosmological constant uses the symbol Λ, the Greek letter Lambda.
The dark energy density parameter is given in the form:
$\Omega_\Lambda$ which is approximately 0.685

The Doppler Redshift results from the relative motion of the light emitting object and the observer. If the source of light is moving away from you then the wavelength of the light is stretched out, i.e., the light is shifted towards the red. When the wavelength is compressed from an object moving towards you then it moves towards the blue end of the spectrum. These effects, individually called the blueshift and the redshift are together known as Doppler shifts. The shift in the wavelength is given by a simple formula

(Observed wavelength - Rest wavelength)/(Rest wavelength) = (v/c)

$$f=\frac{c+v_r}{c+v_s}f_o$$

c=velocity of waves in a medium
$$v_r$$ is the velocity measured by the source using the source’s own proper-time clock(positive if moving toward the source
$$v_s$$ is the velocity measured by the receiver using the source’s own proper-time clock(positive if moving away from the receiver)

The above are for velocities where the source is directly away or towards the observer and for low velocities less than relativistic velocities. A relativistic Doppler formula is required when velocity is comparable to the speed of light. There are different variations of the above formula for transverse Doppler shift or other angles. Doppler shift is used to describe redshift due to inertial velocity one example is a car moving away from you the light will be redshifted, as it approaches you the light and sound will be blueshifted. In general relativity and cosmology, there is a fundamental complication in this simple picture - relative velocity cannot be defined uniquely over large distances. However, it does become unique when compared along the path of light. With relative velocity compared along the path of the light, the special relativity Doppler formula describes redshift for all situations in general relativity and cosmology. It is important to realize that gravity and expansion of the universe affect light paths, and how emitter velocity information is carried along a light path; thus gravity and expansion contribute to Doppler redshift

Gravitational Redshift describes Doppler between static emitter and receiver in a gravitational field. Static observers in a gravitational field are accelerating, not inertial, in general relativity. As a result (even though they are static) they have a relative velocity in the sense described under Doppler. Because they are static, so is this relative velocity along a light path. In fact, the relative velocity for Doppler turns out to depend only on the difference in gravitational potential between their positions. Typically, we dispense with discussion of the relative velocity along a light path for static observers, and directly describe the resulting redshift as a function of potential difference. When the potential increases from emitter to receiver, you have redshift; when it decreases you have blue shift. The formula below is the gravitational redshift formula or Einstein shift off the vacuum surrounding an uncharged, non rotating, spherical mass.
$$\frac{\lambda}{\lambda_o}=\frac{1}{\sqrt{(1 - \frac{2GM}{r c^2})}}$$

G=gravitational constant
c=speed of light
M=mass of gravitational body
r= the radial coordinate (measured as the circumference, divided by 2pi, of a sphere centered around the massive body)

The rate of expansion is expressed in the $\Lambda$CDM model in terms of
The scale factor, cosmic scale factor or sometimes the Robertson-Walker scale factor parameter of the Friedmann equations represents the relative expansion of the universe. It relates the proper distance which can change over time, or the comoving distance which is the distance at a given reference in time.

d(t)=a(t)d_o

where d(t) is the proper distance at epoch (t)
d₀ is the distance at the reference time (t_o)
a(t) is the comoving angular scale factor. Which is the distance coordinate for calculating proper distance between objects at the same epoch (time)
r(t) is the comoving radial scale factor. Which is distance coordinates for calculating proper distances between objects at two different epochs (time)

$$Proper distance =\frac{\stackrel{.}{a}(t)}{a}$$

The dot above a indicates change in.

the notation R(t) indicates that the scale factor is a function of time and its value changes with time. R(t)<1 is the past, R(t)=1 is the present and R(t)>1 is the future.

$$H(t)=\frac{\stackrel{.}{a}(t)}{a(t)}$$

Expansion velocity
$$v=\frac{\stackrel{.}{a}(t)}{a}$$

This shows that Hubble's constant is time dependant.



Cosmic Distance ladder, also known as Extragalactic distance scale. Is easily thought of as a series of different measurement methods for specific distance scales. Previous in the article we discussed the various forms of Redshift. These principles are used in conjunction with the following methods described below. Modern equipment now allows use spectrometry. Spectrographs of an element give off a definite spectrum of light or wavelengths. By examining changes in this spectrum and other electromagnetic frequencies with the various forms of shifts caused by relative motion, gravitational effects and expansion. We can now judge an objects luminosity where absolute luminosity is the amount of energy emitted per second.

Luminosity is often measured in flux where flux is

$$f=\frac{L}{4\pi r^2}$$

However cosmologists typically use a scale called magnitudes. The magnitude scale has been developed so that a 5 magnitude change corresponds to a differents of 100 flux.
Rather than cover a large range of those distance scales or rungs on the ladder I will cover a few of the essential steps to cosmological distance scales. The first rung on the ladder is naturally.

Direct measurements: Direct measurements form the fundamental distance scale. Units such as the distance from Earth to the sun that are used to develop a fundamental unit called astronomical unit or AU. During the orbit around the sun we can take a variety of measurements such as Doppler shifts to use as a calibration for the AU unit. This Unit is also derived by a method called Parallax.

Parallax. Parallax is essentially trigonometric measurements of a nearby object in space. When our orbit forms a right angle triangle to us and the object to be measured
With the standardized AU unit we can take two AU to form the short leg. With the Sun at a right angle to us the distance to the object to be measured is the long leg of the triangle.

Moving Cluster Parallax is a technique where the motions of individual stars in a nearby star cluster can be used to find the distance to the cluster.

Stellar parallax is the effect of parallax on distant stars . It is parallax on an interstellar scale, and allows us to set a standard for the parsec.

Standard candles A common misconception of standard candles is that only type 1A supernova are used. Indeed any known fundamental distance measurement or stellar object whose luminosity or brightness is known can be used as a standard candle. By comparing an objects luminosity to the observed brightness we can calculate the distance to an object using the inverse square law. Standard candles include any object of known luminosity, such as Cepheid’s, novae, Type 1A supernova and galaxy clusters.

My thanks to the following Contributors, for their feedback and support.

PAllen
Naty1
Jonathon Scott
marcus

Article by Mordred, PAllen

 

[Mordred]

This related thread also has some excellent answers to your question.

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=692288

my signature has a link called lightcone calculator with it you can see the expansion history of the universe past, present or future. Here is a default setting sample from it.

$${\scriptsize\begin{array}{|c|c|c|c|c|c|}\hline R_{0} (Gly) & R_{\infty} (Gly) & S_{eq} & H_{0} & \Omega_\Lambda & \Omega_m\\ \hline 14.4&17.3&3400&67.9&0.693&0.307\\ \hline \end{array}}$$ $${\scriptsize\begin{array}{|r|r|r|r|r|r|r|r|r|r|r|r|r|r|r|r|} \hline a=1/S&S&T (Gy)&R (Gly)&D_{now} (Gly)&D_{then}(Gly)&D_{hor}(Gly)&V_{now} (c)&V_{then} (c) \\ \hline 0.001&1090.000&0.0004&0.0006&45.332&0.042&0.057&3.15&66.18\\ \hline 0.003&339.773&0.0025&0.0040&44.184&0.130&0.179&3.07&32.87\\ \hline 0.009&105.913&0.0153&0.0235&42.012&0.397&0.552&2.92&16.90\\ \hline 0.030&33.015&0.0902&0.1363&38.052&1.153&1.652&2.64&8.45\\ \hline 0.097&10.291&0.5223&0.7851&30.918&3.004&4.606&2.15&3.83\\ \hline 0.312&3.208&2.9777&4.3736&18.248&5.688&10.827&1.27&1.30\\ \hline 1.000&1.000&13.7872&14.3999&0.000&0.000&16.472&0.00&0.00\\ \hline 3.208&0.312&32.8849&17.1849&11.118&35.666&17.225&0.77&2.08\\ \hline 7.580&0.132&47.7251&17.2911&14.219&107.786&17.291&0.99&6.23\\ \hline 17.911&0.056&62.5981&17.2993&15.536&278.256&17.299&1.08&16.08\\ \hline 42.321&0.024&77.4737&17.2998&16.093&681.061&17.300&1.12&39.37\\ \hline 100.000&0.010&92.3494&17.2999&16.328&1632.838&17.300&1.13&94.38\\ \hline \end{array}}$$

 

[Spourk]

Just adding some more layman's terms here to add to Mordred and Dave:

Are we traveling, is our planet, solar system moving along with the universe expansion?

Well, According to this dude we are moving through space around 2.7 mph. This is probably wrong and just a "licked thumb in the wind" kind of thing, better people at math will have to either confirm or deny this guy's idea.

My point in bring it up is yeah, we're moving both as a solar system and along with the universes expansion, but they aren't the same, (read the previous posts).

To add to what Dave said, (and Mordred's very awesomely detailed post), Galaxies and stuff in Local Groups (galaxy groups still hooked by gravity)are still bound (even remotely) by gravity, so they are still sort of pulling towards each other. We are moving, but it's doubtful we'll be doing anything but following the Milky Way's rotation for the next billion years or so without some huge cataclysm, because of gravitational influence. (alot more complicated than this but..) When you start getting further out to where gravity gets weak, (like between local groups, where there is no matter for great distances... ) distances seem to be increasing, rather quickly, and we're not completely sure why, (hence dark matter/energy).

This question, statement, is prefaced on the theory that the universe is speeding up rather than slowing down.

Yes, the distances between gravitationally influenced masses seems to be increasing more than decreasing for any reason.

Which has given us dark energy because the math didn't quite add up?

Pretty much.Mordred pretty much covered some good ground on the rest of it. We're all traveling in opposite directions, but it's not because we were "flung" apart in all directions. The space between large bits of mass is just increasing, (red shift, doppler) and we have no real explanation for it. (yet).

 

[PhaLynX]

Hey all, thanks for the answers and subsequently the 10 new questions I now have.
I see they have their formula bases covered when measuring distance/time as it relates to redshift.
Visually in my mind I can't quite grip some determinations such as no center or that we can't look out past the expanding universe or in the opposite direction, which would be looking forward in time, as I see it.
I also don't like dark matter or energy as I'm sure most of you do not either because of the lack of explanations. I would prefer to think of dark energy as an unknown source of gravity.
But yes, layman's vision for sure.
It was educational reading. Thanks

 

[Mordred]

Hey all, thanks for the answers and subsequently the 10 new questions I now have.
I see they have their formula bases covered when measuring distance/time as it relates to redshift.
Visually in my mind I can't quite grip some determinations such as no center or that we can't look out past the expanding universe or in the opposite direction, which would be looking forward in time, as I see it.
I also don't like dark matter or energy as I'm sure most of you do not either because of the lack of explanations. I would prefer to think of dark energy as an unknown source of gravity.
But yes, layman's vision for sure.
It was educational reading. Thanks

Its not so much we don't like it as opposed to we wish we understood the two better. Though our understanding has improved tremendously in the last few years.

In many ways cosmology is far better off not having to deal with a preferred center. The homogeneous,isotropic as well flat nature of our universe makes numerous aspects far easier to calculate.

I've already covered the explosion aspect so going into more detail won't help.

As far as dark energy goes in many ways its often considered a vacuum pressure as opposed to some strange energy form. We have a good understanding of pressure systems so its not so mysterious in and of itself. Einstein's equations predicted either an expanding or contracting universe. For that matter in a static universe the slightest deviation would cause that static universe to either expand or contract. So it wasn't much of a surprise.

As far as dark matter itself goes were getting much closer to understanding it though we still have a ways to go. The evidence for it is constantly increasing.

I once felt much as you did on your original post, it took me a fair amount of study to realize just how much science has considered in alternate theories. Forums such as this one is an excellent resource.

You will find this site will help you catch up on cosmology and probably answer the 10 questions you mentioned lol. It also includes a decent tutorial

http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmology_faq.html

 

[phinds]

Well, According to this dude we are moving through space around 2.7 mph. This is probably wrong and just a "licked thumb in the wind" kind of thing, better people at math will have to either confirm or deny this guy's idea.

EDIT: note --- this response is to the statement directly above. I did not look at the link.

This is not an idea that is right or wrong, it is meaningless because it just says "moving" and that is a meaningless concept because it assumes an absolute rest frame against which we can measure our movement and there is no such thing as an absolute rest frame.

I contend that we are rock steady motionless and I am right because I am measuring that against something right next to us on earth.

I contend that we are moving almost at the speed of light and I am right because I am measuring that against an accelerated particle at CERN.

My point is that "movement" is only meaningful if you say RELATIVE TO WHAT?

 

[Spourk]

My point is that "movement" is only meaningful if you say RELATIVE TO WHAT?

Absolutely true, and thank you for clarifying. What is funny is that is one of the first comments to that guys article after he did all this math to calculate how fast he thinks the solar system is moving was asking him to use GR based exactly on what you said.

I guess I was trying to illustrate simply that the motion of matter in a galaxy isn't the same as the expansion of the universe. The solar system itself is moving in reference to the galactic core, the entire local group is moving away from other local groups in reference to each other, but due to the expansion of space, (dark matter/energy), rather then gravity.