University Search for a Physics Major

[Falgun]

I will be applying to schools for a physics major in about a year or so. And so far my list of Unis consists of ridiculously competitive schools. Of course I realize that this is not realistic for most if not all people. I know about the extraordinary schools like MIT, Princeton, etc. But I was wondering if anyone can give me suggestions for universities which are really good but not as competitive as the above schools. I plan to further research on the suggestions. Also I don't know how much to trust university rankings.

I would appreciate it if the suggestions are from US and UK only. Feel free to recommend your alma mater but please describe in brief why you loved studying there.

Any Physicists out there who would like to answer?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Vanadium 50]

What is your country of citizenship? Do you need financial aid?

And (@StatGuy2000 will be spitting out his coffee when he reads this) what's wrong with Canada?

 

[Falgun]

What is your country of citizenship? Do you need financial aid?

And (@StatGuy2000 will be spitting out his coffee when he reads this) what's wrong with Canada?

I'm an Indian and yes I do require financial aid. Well, I don't know all that much about higher education in Canada but feel free to enlighten me.

 

[StatGuy2000]

I'm an Indian and yes I do require financial aid. Well, I don't know all that much about higher education in Canada but feel free to enlighten me.

I'm curious -- as an Indian, do you have any particular reason not to apply to universities in India? I know that IIT requires a very competitive series of entrance exams (similar to universities in Japan), but are there not other schools that offer quality education in physics?

As far as higher education in Canada, there are a variety of universities to choose from, but I'm not certain if financial aid is available for international students (note: Canadian universities charge much higher tuition for international students than domestic students, and financial aid is primarily reserved for domestic students).

 

[Falgun]

I'm curious -- as an Indian, do you have any particular reason not to apply to universities in India? I know that IIT requires a very competitive series of entrance exams (similar to universities in Japan), but are there not other schools that offer quality education in physics?

As far as higher education in Canada, there are a variety of universities to choose from, but I'm not certain if financial aid is available for international students (note: Canadian universities charge much higher tuition for international students than domestic students, and financial aid is primarily reserved for domestic students).

I will be giving the entrance exams for institutions like the IITs as a backup option but these are more engineering/applied flavoured whereas my tastes run theoretical. Also I want the absolute best university I can get into.

 

[CrysPhys]

I'm in the US. I won't recommend my alma mater since it's on your list of extra-ordinary, ridiculously competitive schools that you are already familiar with. So I'll recommend alternatives. Look at 4-yr liberal arts colleges in the US. Some have strong undergrad physics departments. Some are well endowed. Some welcome cultural diversity and have special programs--and funds--set aside for international students.

You can do a Google search, but I will mention two in particular. I served as an industry mentor for an international student majoring in physics at each. Obviously a minute sample size, but they were both happy with their choices and went onto successful grad programs. The first is Carleton College. The second, only if you are female, is Wellesley College. Wellesley also has the extra plus of a cross-registration program with MIT; so if you enroll at Wellesley, you have access to many of the resources of MIT.

Now, don't get me wrong, admission to these schools is not a shoe-in; they are competitive. But because they don't have the same brand-name recognition--particularly outside the US, and particularly in physics--that the usual suspects have, you might stand a better chance (I have no stats to back this up, however).

 

[Falgun]

I'm in the US. I won't recommend my alma mater since it's on your list of extra-ordinary, ridiculously competitive schools that you are already familiar with. So I'll recommend alternatives. Look at 4-yr liberal arts colleges in the US. Some have strong undergrad physics departments. Some are well endowed. Some welcome cultural diversity and have special programs--and funds--set aside for international students.

You can do a Google search, but I will mention two in particular. I served as an industry mentor for an international student majoring in physics at each. Obviously a minute sample size, but they were both happy with their choices and went onto successful grad programs. The first is Carleton College. The second, only if you are female, is Wellesley College. Wellesley also has the extra plus of a cross-registration program with MIT; so if you enroll at Wellesley, you have access to many of the resources of MIT.

Now, don't get me wrong, admission to these schools is not a shoe-in; they are competitive. But because they don't have the same brand-name recognition--particularly outside the US, and particularly in physics--that the usual suspects have, you might stand a better chance (I have no stats to back this up, however).

Thanks for the examples but I am a little bit confused about why Wellesley is gender specific.

 

[CrysPhys]

Thanks for the examples but I am a little bit confused about why Wellesley is gender specific.

Wellesley accepts female students only. In the US, historically there were colleges that admitted male students only, colleges that admitted female students only, and colleges (called co-educational or co-ed in the US) that admitted both male and female students. Many colleges that were originally male only or female only later became co-ed. I'm not sure of colleges that are still male only, but Wellesley is one of a small number of elite colleges (including, e.g., Smith and Mt. Holyoke) that are still female only. Vassar, e.g., is now co-ed and Radcliffe became an integral part of Harvard.

 

[Falgun]

Wellesley accepts female students only. In the US, historically there were colleges that admitted male students only, colleges that admitted female students only, and colleges (called co-educational or co-ed in the US) that admitted both male and female students. Many colleges that were originally male only or female only later became co-ed. I'm not sure of colleges that are still male only, but Wellesley is one of a small number of elite colleges (including, e.g., Smith and Mt. Holyoke) that are still female only. Vassar, e.g., is now co-ed and Radcliffe became an integral part of Harvard.

Thanks for clarifying but I'm a male

 

[CrysPhys]

Thanks for clarifying but I'm a male

Oh, well. I knew several female students who really wanted to go to MIT, but they didn't get accepted. They did get accepted at Wellesley, however, and took good advantage of the cross-registration program with MIT.

 

[Vanadium 50]

The problem is that to get full financial aid, or close to it, you need to be at the same level as those "extraordinary" schools. MIT (and a handful of other schools) meets full need for internationals. University of X might accept twice as many students, but only give 50% of them full aid.

It's hard to get accurate statistics, but there are probably ~500 students from India in the US who get full tuition (or close to it) scholarships per year. India graduates maybe 25 million students.

 

[Falgun]

The problem is that to get full financial aid, or close to it, you need to be at the same level as those "extraordinary" schools. MIT (and a handful of other schools) meets full need for internationals. University of X might accept twice as many students, but only give 50% of them full aid.

It's hard to get accurate statistics, but there are probably ~500 students from India in the US who get full tuition (or close to it) scholarships per year. India graduates maybe 25 million students.

I'm not exactly looking only for full financial aid schools. I'm looking for schools which are not extraordinary because I have those on my list. What I am looking for is a couple of schools which are really good but not extraordinarily selective.

Let me rephrase: What would be a good bunch of safeties and targets for a Student who's applying to 2-3 ivies to study physics.

 

[Vanadium 50]

There are no safeties.

Out of 20M students who graduate in India, 40K come to the US. That 0.2%.

Second, you say you will need financial aid. If you need it, you need a lot of it. A $1000 scholarship won't move the needle. You need more like a quarter of a million. Or more. I guessed 500 people are in this category. Let's call it 400 to make the math easier. That's 0.002%.

Nothing with a 0.002% probability can be considered a "safety".

A very small number of universities meet full financial need of their students. MIT is one.
A smaller number of universities meet full financial need of their international students. MIT is one.
A smaller still number of those universities practice "need-blind admissions", i.e. they do not consider finances in admission decisions. There are, in fact, five: MIT, Harvard, Amherst, Princeton and Yale. By coincidence, five is also the number of Indian students MIT admits each year, on average.

No US university is a safety. Your safeties need to be in India.

 

[Falgun]

There are no safeties.

Out of 20M students who graduate in India, 40K come to the US. That 0.2%.

Second, you say you will need financial aid. If you need it, you need a lot of it. A $1000 scholarship won't move the needle. You need more like a quarter of a million. Or more. I guessed 500 people are in this category. Let's call it 400 to make the math easier. That's 0.002%.

Nothing with a 0.002% probability can be considered a "safety".

A very small number of universities meet full financial need of their students. MIT is one.
A smaller number of universities meet full financial need of their international students. MIT is one.
A smaller still number of those universities practice "need-blind admissions", i.e. they do not consider finances in admission decisions. There are, in fact, five: MIT, Harvard, Amherst, Princeton and Yale. By coincidence, five is also the number of Indian students MIT admits each year, on average.

No US university is a safety. Your safeties need to be in India.

Thanks for clearing that up. It makes a lot of sense when you actually show the numbers.

 

[jasonRF]

I’m ignorant of the difficulty of admissions for international students, but I do know that the sticker price for international students can vary widely from school to school. If the sticker price is still more than you can afford then it might not help you if they don’t offer any aid, of course. But it might be worthwhile to search for colleges that are “affordable” for international students, just to see what you find and how they line up with your budget.

One example is Florida State, where international tuition is similar to what many public universities charge to their own in-state students. Edit: of course that is still unaffordable for many students, both domestic and international…

good luck!

jason

 

[StatGuy2000]

There are no safeties.

Out of 20M students who graduate in India, 40K come to the US. That 0.2%.

Second, you say you will need financial aid. If you need it, you need a lot of it. A $1000 scholarship won't move the needle. You need more like a quarter of a million. Or more. I guessed 500 people are in this category. Let's call it 400 to make the math easier. That's 0.002%.

Nothing with a 0.002% probability can be considered a "safety".

A very small number of universities meet full financial need of their students. MIT is one.
A smaller number of universities meet full financial need of their international students. MIT is one.
A smaller still number of those universities practice "need-blind admissions", i.e. they do not consider finances in admission decisions. There are, in fact, five: MIT, Harvard, Amherst, Princeton and Yale. By coincidence, five is also the number of Indian students MIT admits each year, on average.

No US university is a safety. Your safeties need to be in India.

@Vanadium 50 , as I've already mentioned to you about IIT, even Indian universities are not safeties, and his chances of acceptance may not necessarily be all that much higher than the US schools. Keep in mind that India's secondary schools may graduate 25 million students, but only a fraction of these are able to attend post-secondary institutions.

My suggestion to the OP is to look far and wide and apply to as many schools all over the world to pursue his undergraduate education. So apply to Indian universities, apply to US schools (both the Ivies and similar top schools, but also less well-known universities), to Canadian schools, to UK schools, to schools in Australia, schools in Europe, etc.

 

[Falgun]

I'm aware of the need to apply wide and I am hence asking for suggestions for schools which are less famous but still good. Like Carleton and Florida State as was mentioned above.

 

[CrysPhys]

There are no safeties.

Out of 20M students who graduate in India, 40K come to the US. That 0.2%.

___

No US university is a safety. Your safeties need to be in India.

I think we've gone round this before. But the key number in the denominator is not the total number of high school grads in India each year, but the total number of high school grads in India that apply to US universities each year. What that number is, I don't know; but I think it's safe to assume that many high school grads in India are not clamoring to study in the US.

But I agree that no US university is a safety ... if a "safety" is defined as a university that (1) offers a physics program of value, (2) is easy to get into, and (3) offers sufficient financial aid.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I don't see an operational difference between being unable to attend because you weren't accepted and being unable to attend because you can't afford it.

I also agree that there are factors not-considered in my order-of-magnitude analysis. Another one is the quality of high schools in India. But the point of the exercise is not to do a Mr. Spock style four digit probability estimate. The point is that a safety school means you're pretty sure you can attend - maybe an 80% chance. A more accurate calculation of 0.002% is not going to turn it into 80% no matter what you do.

The OP has a misconception - that going lower in rankings will substantially help him. The odds of admission may go up, but the odds of getting enough aid go down. (And the university may "conveniently" make both decisions at the same time.) It helps him only because he's applying to more places.

 

[CrysPhys]

I don't see an operational difference between being unable to attend because you weren't accepted and being unable to attend because you can't afford it.

I never said there was. What I wrote was:

But I agree that no US university is a safety ... if a "safety" is defined as a university that (1) offers a physics program of value, (2) is easy to get into, and (3) offers sufficient financial aid.

<<Emphasis original>>

That is, for a safety school, there are three conditions that must be simultaneously satisfied. As far as I know, no US university simultaneously satisfies all three conditions ... regardless of whether the student is international or domestic [depends, of course, on trade-offs between the three conditions and on individual circumstances].

[ETA: On second thought, there are some options for some domestic students.]

 

[StatGuy2000]

I don't see an operational difference between being unable to attend because you weren't accepted and being unable to attend because you can't afford it.

I also agree that there are factors not-considered in my order-of-magnitude analysis. Another one is the quality of high schools in India. But the point of the exercise is not to do a Mr. Spock style four digit probability estimate. The point is that a safety school means you're pretty sure you can attend - maybe an 80% chance. A more accurate calculation of 0.002% is not going to turn it into 80% no matter what you do.

The OP has a misconception - that going lower in rankings will substantially help him. The odds of admission may go up, but the odds of getting enough aid go down. (And the university may "conveniently" make both decisions at the same time.) It helps him only because he's applying to more places.

@Vanadium 50 , you continue to be operating under the assumption that somehow the OP's chances of attending university in India is better than the US. I have already highlighted here why that reason is erroneous.

 

[Falgun]

Guys I think the discussion has veered off course. All I am asking about is for a few university suggestions to look up which aren't as competitive as Ivies. Like if you had a top 50 list of undergraduate physics programs then what would be in the 30-50 range? I'm sorry if my question wasn't all that clear. But I appreciate the insights by @Vanadium 50 , @CrysPhys and @jasonRF .

 

[Vanadium 50]

you continue to be operating under the assumption that somehow the OP's chances of attending university in India is better than the US.

Yes, I do. Most Indian students go to school in India. I'm going with the Statistics.

 

[CrysPhys]

Guys I think the discussion has veered off course. All I am asking about is for a few university suggestions to look up which aren't as competitive as Ivies. Like if you had a top 50 list of undergraduate physics programs then what would be in the 30-50 range? I'm sorry if my question wasn't all that clear. But I appreciate the insights by @Vanadium 50 , @CrysPhys and @jasonRF .

This discussion shifted course based on your Reply #12, in which you specifically asked for safety schools to apply to. Maybe you didn't realize it, but "safety schools" have an entirely different connotation from "schools less competitive than Ivys." That's what spawned many of the responses.

I'm not exactly looking only for full financial aid schools. I'm looking for schools which are not extraordinary because I have those on my list. What I am looking for is a couple of schools which are really good but not extraordinarily selective.

Let me rephrase: What would be a good bunch of safeties and targets for a Student who's applying to 2-3 ivies to study physics.

<<Emphasis added.>>

 

[StatGuy2000]

Yes, I do. Most Indian students go to school in India. I'm going with the Statistics.

Here is a relevant article that is of interest. It dates back to 2018, but it still gives you a snapshot of the situation with education in India.

https://wenr.wes.org/2018/09/education-in-india

Some key quotes:

1. "More than 27 percent of the country’s youth are excluded from education, employment, or training."

2. "India’s higher education system, meanwhile, does not have the capacity to achieve enrollment ratios anywhere close to those of other middle-income economies. The country’s tertiary gross enrollment rate is growing fast, but remains more than 20 percentage points below that of China or Brazil, despite the creation of large numbers of higher education institutions (HEIs) in recent years."

3. "Educational attainment in present-day India is also not directly correlated to employment prospects—a fact that raises doubts about the quality and relevance of Indian education. Although estimates vary, there is little doubt that unemployment is high among university graduates—Indian authorities noted in 2017 that 60 percent of engineering graduates remain unemployed, while a 2013 study of 60,000 university graduates in different disciplines found that 47 percent of them were unemployable in any skilled occupation. India’s overall youth unemployment rate, meanwhile, has remained stuck above 10 percent for the past decade."

So keep all of this in context when you reply back to the OP and other people from India who reply on PF.

 

[hutchphd]

All I am asking about is for a few university suggestions to look up which aren't as competitive as Ivies.

I will throw out about ten that come to mind. I am not expert:

1. Brown U (a lesser Ivy)
2. U Maryland
3. U Va
4. Duke U
5. Ohio State U
6. Purdue U (engineering emphasis)
7. U Illinois
8. U Wisconsin
9. UCSD
10. UCSB
11. U Texas (Austin)

I have no idea as to costs...there are many good schools. These all have good graduate programs. As per your request.

 

[mathwonk]

I think this list in #26 looks very useful, as an answer to your specific question, but you should realize it still consists of very competitive schools. Brown has always been one of the very most difficult schools to gain entrance to in my experience. I.e. many students have long preferred to attend Brown than say Harvard, because the student experience was considered better at Brown, even if Harvard had more Nobel winners. UVa, and Duke are also highly competitive. I know of recent students, very very bright, with almost perfect grades and scores, high enough to be invited to apply to Oxford University in England, but not admitted to any California schools.

As an example of extra levels of competitiveness, the University of Washington is a very strong school, but if you want to major say in computer science at UWa, you not only have to be strong enough to be admitted, you also have to be a resident of Washington state.

I think UT Austin sounds reasonable, with an acceptance rate of 32%, or UCSB with about 30%, but some of students I mentioned who were close to acceptance at Oxford, were not accepted even by UC SantaCruz, which supposedly has an acceptance rate of over 50%.

The good news, partly because many international scholars want not only to study but also to teach in the US, is that lots of universities in the US have very good faculties, even schools not considered in the top 50. If you go to one of them, you may well find yourself the subject of special attention from that faculty, e.g. as a member of a honors program. So in my opinion you are strongly advised to have some safety schools on your list much less competitive, not only than the ivies, but also less competitive than the excellent suggestions in post #26.

 

[Office_Shredder]

Mathwonk, schools are incentived to only offer spots to people who will take it to keep their acceptance rate low and their attendance rate high. This means they will reject people who they think will be going to be a better school.

 

[mathwonk]

That is a good point. You probably know I am a retired college professor formerly involved in acceptance of graduate students and faculty hiring. I never turned down an overqualified grad applicant (never saw one in fact), but was occasionally slow to offer jobs to people so highly qualified that I assumed they would get better offers. Fortunately some of those people called me and expressed interest and I thereby luckily got some of my best hires in spite of my shortsightedness. I am not sure it is correct in all cases, but it does certainly remind of the fact that admittance decisions are not at all always made solely on academic qualifications. For this reason I would urge the OP not to be too discouraged by any particular rejection, as it should not necessarily be taken as evidence of lack of qualifications.

In the case of California schools, I have also heard it asserted by locals there that another possibly relevant non academic reason for rejection is that in - state students pay much lower tuition than out of state students, hence in state students face much higher competition since the school prefers to accept applicants who will bring in more income. We also all know of the corruption in acceptance procedures at some elite universities including some in California, as news reports have recently given highly visible examples of extremely underqualified children of wealthy celebrities, who were accepted rather than other very well qualified ones. So you have to apply where you want to go, as well as where you might or should get in, but be aware it is all a bit of a crap shoot, and you can do well essentially anywhere if you try hard enough.

Thinking back now, one of the reasons we had so few highly qualified applicants to our grad program at one time, seemed to be that at least some good foreign applicants, perhaps a bit like the OP, were only willing to apply to schools rated above a certain level on popular rankings, and hence missed the opportunity to be very well served by our quite good but not famously elite state school program. So I urge the OP to get advice from people who know both him and the programs they are recommending, if possible, and not to rely entirely on rankings.

 

[CrysPhys]

In the case of California schools, I have also heard it asserted by locals there that another possibly relevant non academic reason for rejection is that in - state students pay much lower tuition than out of state students, hence in state students face much higher competition since the school prefers to accept applicants who will bring in more income.

A bit off topic. But this is outrageous practice. After all, state residents support state colleges and universities through state taxes. So in-state applicants should be given the edge over out-of-state applicants; not the other way around.

 

[Vanadium 50]

It's a matter of degree. It's easier to get admitted for an in-state student (e.g. Berkeley has a 3.0 GPA minimum in-state vs 3.4 for out of state) but it is less relatively easy than in the past.

I have no idea as to costs...

Many of those are state schools, and give very little aid to out of state students.

 

[gwnorth]

OP a good source of information with regards to finding schools with good funding for international students is College Confidential.

 

[Falgun]

Thanks a lot! I'll certainly look into all the suggestions. I didn't even know half of the universities mentioned in #26, thanks a lot.Also since I was advised to apply wide as possible and since US has been well represented in this thread, Can someone tell me about universities in UK. From what I have researched, Oxford/Cambridge , Imperial College London and University College London seem top of the pack. But that's the extent of my knowledge.

 

[Falgun]

OP a good source of information with regards to finding schools with good funding for international students is College Confidential.

I came across the website but I wasn't sure how much to trust it. Are there any other reliable sources? So far I've erred on the side of caution and stuck to official University websites.

 

[gwnorth]

I came across the website but I wasn't sure how much to trust it. Are there any other reliable sources? So far I've erred on the side of caution and stuck to official University websites.

You can trust it. Of most value I find are the forums. There are many very knowledgeable people who can help steer you in the right direction.