Was Killing al-Zarqawi Worth the Cost?

[Pengwuino]

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/08/iraq.al.zarqawi/

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the most wanted terrorist in Iraq, was killed in a coalition airstrike near Baquba, jubilant U.S. and Iraqi authorities announced Thursday.

Al-Zarqawi's killing is a major coup for the embattled coalition forces.

Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki, Gen. George Casey, the highest-ranking U.S. commander in Iraq, and U.S. Ambassador to Iraq Zalmay Khalilzad announced the development at a news conference.

"Today, Zarqawi has been killed," al-Maliki said. The announcement was greeted by cheers and applause.

Khalilzad -- who called al-Zarqawi "the godfather of sectarian killing and terror in Iraq" -- said the death "marks a great success for Iraq and the global war on terror" and calls it a "good omen" for the new Iraqi government.

What develops after this will be interesting as there are theories every-which-way as to what will happen now.

 

[scott1]

I was going to post this...
Oh well I like this articles title http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13195017/
it makes sound like the governator killed himself.
I wonder what will happen to the war in Iraq now.
Will americans start showing support for the war? Or will Insurgents be less of a threat and the U.S. won't be needed there for much longer.

 

[Gokul43201]

What develops after this will be interesting as there are theories every-which-way as to what will happen now.

This certainly has more potential than most other occurances in terms of its ability to end the brunt of the bloodshed. It will take some clever manuevering and large doses of luck to turn things around now, but it's probably as good a chance as there will be any time soon. There's the risk of retaliation from al Qaeda, but IMO, Iraq is not the best platform for that.

This is good news, indeed...I hope.

 

[Echo 6 Sierra]

In the article it says that so-and-so posted on the nasty website that "blah-blah"... Is there any way that an electronic trail can be followed to find the location of the people involved so Uncle Sam's Misguided Children can stop by and say hello? I'm thinking it would be along the lines of when law enforcement located bad guys here in the US. Also, the terrorists may cover themselves in layers of e-camoflage but what-the-hey, it's worth a shot.

How does this work? Get an IP addy and simply find the location, or is it more involved?

 

[scott1]

In the article it says that so-and-so posted on the nasty website that "blah-blah"... Is there any way that an electronic trail can be followed to find the location of the people involved so Uncle Sam's Misguided Children can stop by and say hello? I'm thinking it would be along the lines of when law enforcement located bad guys here in the US. Also, the terrorists may cover themselves in layers of e-camoflage but what-the-hey, it's worth a shot.

How does this work? Get an IP addy and simply find the location, or is it more involved?

Are you saying this is a coverup?

 

[russ_watters]

In the article it says that so-and-so posted on the nasty website that "blah-blah"... Is there any way that an electronic trail can be followed to find the location of the people involved so Uncle Sam's Misguided Children can stop by and say hello? I'm thinking it would be along the lines of when law enforcement located bad guys here in the US. Also, the terrorists may cover themselves in layers of e-camoflage but what-the-hey, it's worth a shot.

How does this work? Get an IP addy and simply find the location, or is it more involved?

That doesn't make any sense. Could you explain what you are talking about? Are you talking about tracking down terrorists electronically? The military and intel agencies do all they can already.

 

[Echo 6 Sierra]

Are you saying this is a coverup?

Nuh-uh. Either I misspoke or you misinterpreted, sorry. I'm thinking that most of the people that are posting on the pro-terorrist websites have a high probablility of being terrorristicles themselves. If so, why can't someone hunt them down via an ip like all those horrible people that the RIAA finds and extorts for a couple thou to stay out of court. I don't know how they (RIAA) do it, I'm just saying that if they they can find Marcel Ledbetter who downloaded Saturday-Night-Nose-Pickin'-Stomp, surely they can find someone who loudly proclaims that they themselves are responsible for a specific act and have left an electronic trail of bread crumbs.

Or maybe we can tell Tom Cruise that Bin Laden has questions about Scientology.

 

[scott1]

Nuh-uh. Either I misspoke or you misinterpreted, sorry. I'm thinking that most of the people that are posting on the pro-terorrist websites have a high probablility of being terrorristicles themselves. If so, why can't someone hunt them down via an ip like all those horrible people that the RIAA finds and extorts for a couple thou to stay out of court. I don't know how they (RIAA) do it, I'm just saying that if they they can find Marcel Ledbetter who downloaded Saturday-Night-Nose-Pickin'-Stomp, surely they can find someone who loudly proclaims that they themselves are responsible for a specific act and have left an electronic trail of bread crumbs.

Sorry I think I misintepreted but thsi might not be the best thread to make that post.

Or maybe we can tell Tom Cruise that Bin Laden has questions about Scientology.

If that happens I hope someone would fire the death star at us.

 

[arildno]

Good riddance to him; he had an unhandsome beard.

 

[Smurf]

What? Again?

 

[devil-fire]

i heard on the BBC news that zarqawi himself is only involved in 15% of the violence in iraq? I am vary surprised a single man could directly be involved in as much activity but maybe the organization he heads. the man is an iconic fundamentalist leader in the region (apparently jordan has suffered terrorist attacks attributed to this man as well) but i don't expect his death will curb the violence much because fundamentalists seem to thrive on martyrdom. the reason he was hard to find in the first place is because of the cellular structure of the groups that function under his influence and leadership, so to think that the snake will die shortly after the head is cut off is optimistic. the significant impact of this death is the moral boost to the iraqi people, not the loss of his leadership.

this sounds a lot like the capture of saddam with respect to the iraqi national insurgents. effect on media coverage- lots. effect on the hostilities on the ground- little.

 

[FredGarvin]

Good riddance to bad rubbish. Have fun meeting Allah with a MK82 shoved up your arse.

 

[Pengwuino]

I think what Echo is trying to say is why can you hunt down someone based on their forum postings or whatever or find people on P2P networks but you can't really hunt down terrorists over the internet. The problem is that most kids are logging on with no proxies so their IP is being transmitted. The ISP holds this information and if the kid commits a crime or whatever, the police can ask the ISP for the information. The problem with tracking internationally and with smart criminals is that for one, they probably don't stick around to use the same computer twice. They also would use an easily setup proxy that transmits an IP that is fake. Third, ISP's in the middle east may not store the information or it may be too difficult negotiating the information away from them. Theres probably other things but a 12 year old stealing music on the internet doesn't compare to terrorists operating in the middle east.

 

[edward]

It appears that the U.S. finally nsiled the bastard. I doubt that this will change things much in Iraq however. al-Zarqawi most likely knew his death was inevitable and has a replacement on the ground already.

Except for the IED's and other attacks on Americans, most of the killing currently is Iraqi's killing Iraqi's and al-Zarqawi had nothing to do with that. Were it goes from here is a big question mark, but I don't really think the situation could get much worse.

 

[scott1]

It appears that the U.S. finally nsiled the bastard. I doubt that this will change things much in Iraq however. al-Zarqawi most likely knew his death was inevitable and has a replacement on the ground already.

Of cource he has replacment already but will he be as infulential which is no.
Al-Zarqwi was the only (in)famous insurgent leader in Iraq that we knew it would take years for someone elese to become as powerfull.

 

[LURCH]

I don't know if we'll ever be able to say what effect this event had on life in Iraq, coming as it did on the same day that the Iraqi parlaiment was completed. I think that will be a far greater influence on the nation, although the illimination of Al-Zarqawi is a powerfull symbolic event.

Now that Iraq has a complete government, with at least an appearence of attempting to be fair to everyone, It is my guess (and certainly my hope) that people will begin trying to resolve their grievances through politicking and endless public argumantation. It's an ugly, annoying process and I get pretty fed up with it here in the States; but once in a while, When I'm reminded of the alternatives, I'm sure glad democracy exists!

 

[BobG]

I don't know if we'll ever be able to say what effect this event had on life in Iraq, coming as it did on the same day that the Iraqi parlaiment was completed. I think that will be a far greater influence on the nation, although the illimination of Al-Zarqawi is a powerfull symbolic event.

Now that Iraq has a complete government, with at least an appearence of attempting to be fair to everyone, It is my guess (and certainly my hope) that people will begin trying to resolve their grievances through politicking and endless public argumantation. It's an ugly, annoying process and I get pretty fed up with it here in the States; but once in a while, When I'm reminded of the alternatives, I'm sure glad democracy exists!

Coming on the same day might not be just coincidence. Psychologically, Zarqawi's death is a huge positive development.

In practical terms, it's hard to say what the impact will be. Zarqawi was a huge symbol of al-Qaeda in Iraq, but he wasn't incredibly effective at creating a unified threat. The problems in Iraq are as much due to fighting between Shiites and Sunnis, Sunnis and Kurds, Zarqawi Sunnis vs Shiites, and even Zarqawi Sunnis vs. Sunnis as it was Zarqawi vs the US. In fact, being able to target Zarqawi is an indication that there was at least someone 'in the know' disillusioned by Zarqawi's methods.

A successor might not be as highly visible as Zarqawi, but he might be more of an overall threat. When Israel killed the Hezbollah's al-Musawi in the 90's, he was replaced by a more effective tactical leader in Nasrallah.

Or, possibly, any al-Qaeda effort in Iraq will become even more disjointed if members fight among themselves for leadership positions. That would at least reduce the problem to just differences between different sectarian factions (that's still a pretty big problem).

 

[Anttech]

They also would use an easily setup proxy that transmits an IP that is fake

The IP isn't fake, its real, but you proxy of of it. Most of these Anon proxy servers are logging your IP address anyway, so it isn't really that secure, but its better than nothing.

Now that Iraq has a complete government, with at least an appearence of attempting to be fair to everyone, It is my guess (and certainly my hope) that people will begin trying to resolve their grievances through politicking and endless public argumantation. It's an ugly, annoying process and I get pretty fed up with it here in the States; but once in a while, When I'm reminded of the alternatives, I'm sure glad democracy exists!

Democracy for sure is a good thing, but I would harldy call a government that is being held up by foregin armies democratic. Iraq is far from democracy right now ojn average 1200 civilians are being murdered every month in Iraq. The bottom line reason is politics. This is unheard of in a 'proper' democracy

 

[Gokul43201]

Zarqawi initially survived bombing
US general revises earlier account

Zarqawi was lying on a stretcher at the scene of the bombing, in a village about 35 miles north of Baghdad, when US forces arrived and tentatively identified him as the wanted insurgent leader Wednesday evening. He mumbled something indistinguishable and tried to move but was restrained, according to Major General William Caldwell, a US military spokesman in Baghdad.

"Everybody resecured him back onto the stretcher, but he died almost immediately thereafter from the wounds he'd received from this air strike," Caldwell said.

A day earlier, when asked about reports that Zarqawi had survived the blast from two 500-pound bombs dropped on a house by Air Force fighter jets, Caldwell had told reporters, "He was dead when we arrived there."

What's with all the weirdness?

http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2006/06/10/zarqawi_initially_survived_bombing/

 

[Bystander]

Shock waves from explosions travel at km/s for distances which are a function of explosive package geometry and size, and distance; you can be dead from the "meat tenderizer" effect* long before your nervous system, 30-100 m/s transmission, has time to react and send you into fatal shock. GI medics familiar with the results can pronounce you dead before you've stopped breathing, while other people are going to observe a pulse, respiration, pupil response and other such signs and go through the whole "ER" drill.

*The effects of shock waves from high explosives, or energetic capacitive discharges, have been used to tenderize less than "select" meat cuts. The method involves suspending the meat to be tenderized in water, in a vessel designed either to withstand the explosive effect, or to fail safely (without harmful fragmentation); the water serves to transmit the shock wave more efficiently and uniformly to the material being tenderized (shattering of cell walls in the tougher connective tissues).​

 

[kyleb]

That doesn't rightly explain Caldwell's conflicting reports as he was speaking in the past tense in both cases.

 

[Loren Booda]

I offer that this assassination marks the beginning of a effective strategy of bounties, electronic intelligence, and the active demonstration by the average Iraqi against insurgents.

 

[Pengwuino]

What's with all the weirdness?

http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2006/06/10/zarqawi_initially_survived_bombing/

Initial reports aren't always completely accurate

 

[Gokul43201]

I guess that's possible. Maybe it was the desire to get the story out as soon as possible that got in the way of double-checking the facts.

 

[Pengwuino]

I guess that's possible. Maybe it was the desire to get the story out as soon as possible that got in the way of double-checking the facts.

yah that sounds about on par for all forms of mass media

 

[SOS2008]

I offer that this assassination marks the beginning of a effective strategy of bounties, electronic intelligence, and the active demonstration by the average Iraqi against insurgents.

I agree the average Iraqi is not a supporter of al-Zarqawi and probably why the U.S. was given intelligence on his location. At the same time, because al-Zarqawi and his methods did not garner approval by many, what significance will his removal have in improving the situation in Iraq? As BobG already pointed out, the sectarian disputes between Sunni and Shi'a, or even the Kurds will not be affected by this.

It amazes me that the U.S. media is making this appear like such a great accomplishment. But then it was the U.S. media that made al-Zarqawi famous in the first place even though he never really was a part of Al-Qeada--just a Jordanian thug.

 

[Astronuc]

It amazes me that the U.S. media is making this appear like such a great accomplishment.

The media like to sensationalize news in order to sell to an audience that 'buys' sensationalistic news.

The same media did not question the war in Iraq and the motivation behind it.

The same media did not question the administration or congress on intelligence lapses that allowed al-Qaida to successfully attack the US.

And on and on . . . .

 

[kyleb]

It wasn't just the media getting carried away with itself in this case, but rather the exagerations were encouraged though military psyche-ops.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/09/AR2006040900890.html

 

[Gokul43201]

Whether or not this will drastically or even noticeably improve the situation in Iraq, it is an unquestionable fact that finally, a man responsible for hundreds or thousands of killings has been identified and eliminated. This is certainly significant.

 

[kyleb]

Did you not read the article I linked above? It is hard to say how much he was actually responsible for compared to how much we have been told he was responsible for.

 

[Gokul43201]

Oops, no I didn't. I thought you meant "exaggeration" of the effect of killing Zarqawi.

Am reading it now.

 

[PrudensOptimus]

is that man really a threat to US security? his neighbors say he's a good protector of the land.

 

[kyleb]

Considering we have been paying our own military to inflate the man's importance to everyone, and all the media exaggeration on top of that, I have to wonder if the effort was really even worth the price of the bombs.