Was the universe created? (not an evolution discussion)

[Entropy]

Things are popping in and out of existence all the time in the vacuum of space and they are created from nothing.

They are popping out of space, and space is something.

 

[BobG]

Hi. I have a problem with a statement that was in the first chapter of my "World Religions" book for school. It first explains that the word "God" can have many different meanings. It then concludes the chapter with "It is a fact, not a mystery, that God, whatever or whoever God might be, created the Universe".
I think what it is saying is that everyone defines 'god' differently, but it is a fact that the universe went from a state of 'non-existence' to 'existence'. Would you agree?
Trouble is, why? Is there some proof that it had to have not existed, then at some later time existed? Is there a good scientific reason to not believe that it 'was always there'? (other than simply being hard to imagine)
What is your reaction.

Just keeping within the context of what the book is getting at, there are some religions that believe in an eternal universe that had no beginning or end. If it is a fact that the universe went from a state of non-existance, then those religions are automatically wrong and God could be defined as whatever or whoever created the universe - especially if you'd like a definition limited enough in scope to cross many religions. If there's a steady state universe that has always existed, then all religions that talk about the creation of the universe are automatically wrong and you need some other definition for God. Or, if you take into account that before and after has no relevance when time was created along with the universe, then the definition might be appropriate, even for the religions that believe the universe has existed for all of time.

The book is really stepping up to a big challenge if it thinks it can find some politically correct way to deal with all of the world's religions. I would imagine that would be a task that would be accomplished around the time that hell freezes over. Considering that there is more than religion that believes everyone that doesn't believe in their religion will go to hell, hell has to have a rapidly expanding population. Unless the volume of hell is exanding faster than the number of people going to hell, I wouldn't expect hell to freeze over any time soon.

 

[Anttech]

Your paraphrase doesn't capture the meaning of the original. The statement specifically cites "God" as the creator. This means a being with the ability to have intentionally designed and created the universe. Your paraphrase lacks the all important attribution of it all to that being, which is the main point of the book's statement. Stating the universe once did not exist, but now it does, doesn't exclude a non-theological cause for this the way the book's bald assertion does.

why does God have to be a "being"

I aggree with Mr El Hombre on this one... so you are all wrong naa naa naa naa

 

[Danger]

This has been linked before, but it's always worth seeing again, and since Bob brought it up...

http://www.people.virginia.edu/~rjh9u/hellthrm.html

 

[tribdog]

They are popping out of space, and space is something.

I don't exactly agree with that, but I'm of the opinion that things are popping into existence in nothingness as well, but we can not see that happening because nothingness would have to be outside our reality, according to your definition of nothing.
and these things are not popping out of space, they are popping out of nothing, into space. They don't take any energy from space to come into being.

 

[KingNothing]

I'm glad to see that it drew a like reaction from other science-oriented people. Bob, can you name some of these religions that believe in an eternal universe without a creator?

Also, Tribdog, do you have any links to the 'popping in and out' stuff you were talking about? I'm unfamiliar with QM

 

[Evo]

I'm glad to see that it drew a like reaction from other science-oriented people. Bob, can you name some of these religions that believe in an eternal universe without a creator?

The Piraha of South America have no creation myths.

 

[wolram]

I don't exactly agree with that, but I'm of the opinion that things are popping into existence in nothingness as well, but we can not see that happening because nothingness would have to be outside our reality, according to your definition of nothing.
and these things are not popping out of space, they are popping out of nothing, into space. They don't take any energy from space to come into being.

Popping out of nothing how can some thing pop out of nothing Please explain where science says that, "some thing" can pop out
of , "nothing".

 

[tribdog]

http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae605.cfm"
and don't f'n laugh at me
and then apologize

 

[wolram]

http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae605.cfm"
and don't f'n laugh at me
and then apologize

This is not something from nothing, anyone that tells you that something can
come from absolute nothing is just spouting meta physics, at the very least the
idea is untestable, and i am not laughing at you, it is way science can be twisted to ones own end that makes me laugh, i am sure if you post a question
in the above science forums you will get a better answer.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Well, either I'm insane or everyone else is, because I read the OP differently.
If you define God as the creator of the Universe, and this is your only definition of God, then whatever created the Universe is therefore God.

The OP doesn't define God as "the creator" of the universe.:

It first explains that the word "God" can have many different meanings. It then concludes the chapter with "It is a fact, not a mystery, that God, whatever or whoever God might be, created the Universe".

It simply asserts that God created the universe, without having defined God as "the creator." This: "It is a fact, not a mystery, that God, whatever or whoever God might be, created the Universe," is not a definition, but an assertion.

If the Universe was created by two branes colliding then the collision is God.

I'm going to bet that since the book is "World Religions" that the "whatever" in "whatever or whoever God might be" refers to concepts like "eternal life force" or "superconsciousness" rather than branes and black holes, which aren't concepts attached to any religion.

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

The OP doesn't define God as "the creator" of the universe.:
It simply asserts that God created the universe, without having defined God as "the creator." This: "It is a fact, not a mystery, that God, whatever or whoever God might be, created the Universe," is not a definition, but an assertion.
I'm going to bet that since the book is "World Religions" that the "whatever" in "whatever or whoever God might be" refers to concepts like "eternal life force" or "superconsciousness" rather than branes and black holes, which aren't concepts attached to any religion.

Okay. Perhaps strictly speaking I misused the word 'define'. I misspelt 'because' too. I'm a bad man, what can I say?!? I inferred the text was defining God as such.

As for branes and black holes, they were my examples. You're free to think up your own. My point was that nearly everyone before I posted was assuming God to be a thinking creator when the OP words things in such a way that strongly suggests non-thinking creators and even events are candidates: "whatever or whoever God might be".

I threw it out there. Ignore or incorporate as you wish, I don't care.

 

[Entropy]

They don't take any energy from space to come into being.

I though they came out of zero-point energy? Or am I wrong?

 

[scott1]

There's really no proof God doesn't exist or he does exist.I know in bible it says that Earth created in 7-days 6000 years ago but couldn't that just be a miss translation like it really the Earth was created in 7 billion years because they didn't have good way of telling time it was written before people started counting years I'am not sure if they could months yet.There's nothing in the bible that said how long ago it was created.When I read it said the Fish water was created before land and animals that's the same oder Biologist said they were created.

 

[Leah]

Everything starts with a beginning and everything ends with nothing! So existence began from nothing. How did existence start? That is the ultimate question. I think a meteorite crashed into our planet that had life in it, and poof! life formed. But then you can ask the evolutionists and the creationists. Evo has the best answer and that is there is no answer at all! Right?

 

[scott1]

Everything starts with a beginning and everything ends with nothing! So existence began from nothing. How did existence start? That is the ultimate question. I think a meteorite crashed into our planet that had life in it, and poof! life formed. But then you can ask the evolutionists and the creationists. Evo has the best answer and that is there is no answer at all! Right?

If a metorite crashed into Erath and started life where did the metorite come from and how did it get life on it.How whould life be able to survie the Impact

 

[Evo]

Evo has the best answer and that is there is no answer at all! Right?

I actually know the answer, but I don't want to spoil it for everyone.

 

[BobG]

There's really no proof God doesn't exist or he does exist.I know in bible it says that Earth created in 7-days 6000 years ago but couldn't that just be a miss translation like it really the Earth was created in 7 billion years because they didn't have good way of telling time it was written before people started counting years I'am not sure if they could months yet.There's nothing in the bible that said how long ago it was created.When I read it said the Fish water was created before land and animals that's the same oder Biologist said they were created.

How did the author(s) of Genesis figure out the age of the Earth (in fact, considering this was an oral book for a long time, when was the original version created)? And does the first written version (around 500 BCE?) accurately depict the original oral version? I bet the Bible was a lot easier to adapt to the current situation when it was transmitted orally.

Even within the written version, the contributions of several different authors were taken and distributed among the first five books (and I mean different authors within each book, not that the first five were each written by a different author). You can tell, because the authors don't always agree with each other (there's at least three different versions of the Ten Commandments in the Bible). The disagreement would be understandable, considering the oral history of the oldest books. Whoever compiled the works made no effort to decide which was right and which was wrong - how was he to know and, besides, maybe the bigger picture was more important than the details.

It doesn't matter whether a person believes in God or doesn't believe in God. It's still a real stretch to think the creation story in the Bible is anything more than a good story.

 

[scott1]

How did the author(s) of Genesis figure out the age of the Earth (in fact, considering this was an oral book for a long time, when was the original version created)? And does the first written version (around 500 BCE?) accurately depict the original oral version? I bet the Bible was a lot easier to adapt to the current situation when it was transmitted orally.
Even within the written version, the contributions of several different authors were taken and distributed among the first five books (and I mean different authors within each book, not that the first five were each written by a different author). You can tell, because the authors don't always agree with each other (there's at least three different versions of the Ten Commandments in the Bible). The disagreement would be understandable, considering the oral history of the oldest books. Whoever compiled the works made no effort to decide which was right and which was wrong - how was he to know and, besides, maybe the bigger picture was more important than the details.
It doesn't matter whether a person believes in God or doesn't believe in God. It's still a real stretch to think the creation story in the Bible is anything more than a good story.

Good point about the how long ago when Geneisis was written
What I was trying to say was that it's possible that Geneisis and science can both be true.