You must have missed this recent (very long) thread: https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/motorcycle-physics-countersteering-and-bodysteering.927832/itfitmewelltoo said:More interesting is what is called counter steering. The wheels, in particular, the front wheel, is a gyroscope. The angular momentum of the front wheel is significant. In order to turn left, the rider pushes forward on the left handle bar. The bike then leans to the left and the bike turns to the left. The effect is more pronounced as speed increases and there is a transition speed below which the steering is as expected and above which angular momentum dominates
itfitmewelltoo said:More interesting is what is called counter steering. The wheels, in particular, the front wheel, is a gyroscope. The angular momentum of the front wheel is significant. In order to turn left, the rider pushes forward on the left handle bar. The bike then leans to the left and the bike turns to the left. The effect is more pronounced as speed increases and there is a transition speed below which the steering is as expected and above which angular momentum dominates
The rider feels a net force vertical with respect to the lean angle of the bike (if the rider is not leaning inwards or outward relative to the bike). If the bike is leaning at 45 degrees (and in a coordinated turn), then the rider and bike are leaning at 45 degrees, and the rider feels a net force that is also at 45 degrees, so the rider doesn't feel any sideways forces (if the rider is not leaning inwards or outward relative to the bike). This is essentially the same as a coordinated banked turn in an aircraft.Erunanethiel said:Everybody says when going around a corner on a motorcycle and leaning, you feel the g forces vertically (like pushing down on your spine) as opposed to horizontally when cornering in a car.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteeringcjl said:That's not a gyroscopic effect - rather, it comes from the fact that if you turn the wheel to the right (by pushing the left handlebar forward), the wheels will steer to the right, out from underneath the CG of the bike. Since the wheels are now to the right of the CG, the bike "falls" to the left, initiating the left lean needed for the left turn.
Oh, reading further in that link, "One effect of turning the front wheel is a roll moment caused by gyroscopic precession. The magnitude of this moment is proportional to the moment of inertia of the front wheel, its spin rate (forward motion), the rate that the rider turns the front wheel by applying a torque to the handlebars, and the cosine of the angle between the steering axis and the vertical.[10]".cjl said:That's not a gyroscopic effect - rather, it comes from the fact that if you turn the wheel to the right (by pushing the left handlebar forward), the wheels will steer to the right, out from underneath the CG of the bike. Since the wheels are now to the right of the CG, the bike "falls" to the left, initiating the left lean needed for the left turn.
As the link shows, you can countersteer at speeds slow enough so that gyroscopic effects are minimal. cjl is correct that the main effect is to move the front tire's contact patch out from under the COM, which causes the bike to tip in. There is a small gyroscopic effect as well at higher speeds, but only adds a bit in my experience.itfitmewelltoo said:
Let's consider this intuitively. The classic presentation of the gyroscopic effect is a guy holding a spinning bicycle tire, sitting on a rotating chair. Compare the weigh of this bicycle tire and rotational velocity to the weight and rotational velocity of a motorcycle wheel at 40 mph. The bicycle pales by comparison. It can hardly be said that the precession of that motorcycle wheel is negligible. Clearly it is not.cjl said:That's not a gyroscopic effect - rather, it comes from the fact that if you turn the wheel to the right (by pushing the left handlebar forward), the wheels will steer to the right, out from underneath the CG of the bike. Since the wheels are now to the right of the CG, the bike "falls" to the left, initiating the left lean needed for the left turn.
Do you ride? What do you ride?itfitmewelltoo said:Let's consider this intuitively. The classic presentation of the gyroscopic effect is a guy holding a spinning bicycle tire, sitting on a rotating chair. Compare the weigh of this bicycle tire and rotational velocity to the weight and rotational velocity of a motorcycle wheel at 40 mph. The bicycle pales by comparison. It can hardly be said that the precession of that motorcycle wheel is negligible. Clearly it is not.
And, the phenomena does not occur at low speed. There is a crossover speed at which the steering changes from as expected to counter steering. As speed increases, the effect becomes more pronounced. What has changed? What has changed is the rotational velocity of the wheel.
The precession only exists while a torque is applied. Once the steering is completed, initially outwards to induce a lean, the precession stops since it's a reaction to torque, not angle.itfitmewelltoo said:Oh, reading further in that link, "One effect of turning the front wheel is a roll moment caused by gyroscopic precession. The magnitude of this moment is proportional to the moment of inertia of the front wheel, its spin rate (forward motion), the rate that the rider turns the front wheel by applying a torque to the handlebars, and the cosine of the angle between the steering axis and the vertical". Note the term "of turning the front wheel is a roll moment caused by gyroscopic precession."
There are two primary speed ranges, one below the speed of self-stability, one in the range of self-stability. For a mathematical model using razor thin tires, there is a third speed range (capsize speed), above which a bike would tend to fall inwards at an extremely slow rate, but with real tires, this speed range doesn't exist or only exists well beyond any speed that a bike could achieve.itfitmewelltoo said:There is a crossover speed at which the steering changes from as expected to counter steering.
"Counter steering is in effect at all speeds."rcgldr said:The precession only exists while a torque is applied. Once the steering is completed, initially outwards to induce a lean, the precession stops since it's a reaction to torque, not angle.
There are two primary speed ranges, one below the speed of self-stability, one in the range of self-stability. For a mathematical model using razor thin tires, there is a third speed range (capsize speed), above which a bike would tend to fall inwards at an extremely slow rate, but with real tires, this speed range doesn't exist or only exists well beyond any speed that a bike could achieve.
Counter steering is in effect at all speeds. At slow speeds, it's much less noticeable as the steering input is very light. It's easier to see this effect in the case of unicycles, which don't have the self correction related to trail on a two wheeled bike.