What Defines True Genius Beyond IQ Tests?

[mugaliens]

As this fits into at least four of the six categories in Other Sciences, I thought I'd introduce it here in General Discussions, as it doesn't really fit into any three, much less two, or even one of the categories in Other Sciences, and most certainly doesn't fit into any of the more restrictive categories in any of the other sections.

What this thread is NOT:

1. A discussion of IQ

2. A discussion of any group, whatsoever (I'm not naming names, of which there are many, so you - please don't name names), which requires certain levels of achievement on tests of their own chosing as requisite for membership.

3. Idiot-savant talent, or other, similar talents associated with various disorders which present themselves beyond the normative human condition. In this respect, we're talking about genius within the normal human realm.

Definition of "genius" as pertaining to the topic of discussion: It could be the ability to play the piano by ear having heard one rendition thereof, just as it could be the ability to paint either a picture-perfect scene from a photograph, or a reasonably-perfect scene from memory. It might also be the ability to take that 1-in-10,000th photograph which moves both hearts and minds, time after time, even though you're taking such photographs every tenth picture. It might also be an innate ability to recognize and process a wide variety of disparate business information capable of evading numerical analysis, and come up with the right (or mostly right) solution for a corporate entity time after time.

So, what this is: An opportunity to discuss what aspects of human cognitive function, whether how...

biology (all neurotransmitters firing as they should)

chemistry (any environmental enhancements or detractors)

medical sciences (interrelation between biochem or psych services)

social sciences (the way we learned or were raised as impacting our ability to perform)

...affects what we call "genius."

Question 1: What, exactly, is genius? Please stay away from mention of IQ tests. Thanks.

A personal aside: I called an old editor earlier this evening, pitching an article I thought he and his "co-people" might be interested in "fielding" (i.e. paying me to write). I received an interesting response. He said, "how is it that you could break into this rather cutthroat industry when you did, with somewhat minimal credentials in your field of expertise, yet wind up with a string of articles, some of them award-winning, but most of which remain out there in syndicated publication, and a few of which we have to keep online because they've now become mainstay's in our business?"

Then he blew his stack. He said, "Hell! You don't even know our business!"

I grew silent, but not for too long (I'm not a young fart), and asked, "Are my syndicated articles earning you more money than you paid me to write them?"

Thank God I have an honest editor! He said, "Yes..."

Then I asked, "And has there been anything in those articles to which you, your corporation's technical staff, or any other, have been able to raise any legitimate complaint?"

Thank God I have an honest editor! He said, "No..."

Then I asked, "And how much, precisely, have you and X made on what I wrote under contract for you? Is it worth more than ten times, net, what you paid me?"

(after a few moments): "Yes"

My response: Then John, I'd say we have a decent business relationship. I'm fully aware of the back office efforts required to turn my words into profits for your concern, but you're aware that, net, I'd like to share the wealth. Given our recession, if you'd like me to write for you, I'll make it worth your while, just 1/10x, to be exact.

So! I'm now working on royalties, rather than contract.

***

"What the heck is this?" You ask?

Simply - it's a thread for those of us out there to help the rest of you attain the maximum of your potential. We can't supply you jobs, leads, or references. What we can do is to help you understand and navigate the currents involved with advancement, and help you avoid a few pitfalls along the way.

PM me anytime. I'll not grant direct access or favor. Only resource, and never, ever, any of that of my own.

But hey, that's just me.

*****

So what's the true meaning of genius?

I've seen many example, and many a circumstance. To be honest, I cannot yet define it. I can only recognize it when I see it.

How about you?

Again, please keep this away from the groupie stereotypes. Thanks.

 

[Office_Shredder]

Is this a thread about what it means to be a genius or a thread about

Simply - it's a thread for those of us out there to help the rest of you attain the maximum of your potential. We can't supply you jobs, leads, or references. What we can do is to help you understand and navigate the currents involved with advancement, and help you avoid a few pitfalls along the way.

?

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

My mother always used to say "Genius is as genius does."

 

[mugaliens]

My mother always used to say "Genius is as genius does."

thanks, jimmy that was so helpful

 

[mugaliens]

Is this a thread about what it means to be a genius...

Somewhat, with some serious restrictions. Please, the OP covers your concerns.

Baiting won't fly.

- mugs

 

[G037H3]

have a http://books.google.com/books?id=r9...resnum=3&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false", I just read it like a week ago :)

 

[JaredJames]

savantism isn't genius mugaliens

have a http://books.google.com/books?id=r9...resnum=3&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false", I just read it like a week ago :)

Which is why it's on his "not" list.

 

[G037H3]

Which is why it's on his "not" list.

I skim things, and as a result I sometimes miss stuff. Thanks for the correction.

 

[fourier jr]

here's what http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_Christoph_Lichtenberg" wrote about it

I have very often reflected on what it is that really distinguishes the great genius from the common crowd. Here are a few observations I have made. The common individual always conforms to the prevailing opinion and the prevailing fashion; he regards the state in which everything now exists as the only possible one and passively accepts it all. It does not occur to him that everything, from the shape of the furniture to the subtlest hypothesis, is decided by the great council of mankind of which he is a member. He wears thin-soled shoes even though the sharp stones of the street hurt his feet, he allows fashion to dictate to him that the buckles of his shoes must extend as far as the toes even though that means the shoe is hard to get on. He does not reflect that the form of the shoe depends as much upon him as it does upon the fool who first wore thin shoes on a cracked pavement. To the great genius it always occurs to ask: Could this too not be false? He never gives his vote too without reflecting...

A great genius will seldom make his discoveries on paths frequented by others. When he discovers things he usually also discovers the path to discovery.

 

[Evo]

So, a sign of genius is practical shoes. I knew it.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

My mother always used to say "Genius is as genius does."

My wife says she does a genius.

Now if I can just figure out who she means.

 

[Proton Soup]

<snip>

What this thread is NOT:

3. Idiot-savant talent, or other, similar talents associated with various disorders which present themselves beyond the normative human condition. In this respect, we're talking about genius within the normal human realm.

Definition of "genius" as pertaining to the topic of discussion: It could be the ability to play the piano by ear having heard one rendition thereof, just as it could be the ability to paint either a picture-perfect scene from a photograph, or a reasonably-perfect scene from memory.

you just said it is not idiot-savant talent, then you go on to say it can be common idiot-savant talents.

here's what http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_Christoph_Lichtenberg" wrote about it

i think that is certainly a big part of it. geniuses defy convention. which is not all that rare. no one would accuse hipsters of being geniuses, i think. but geniuses defy convention and win. and they usually win pretty bigly.

certain human ailments like manic-depression probably aid the success of actual geniuses. i don't want to suggest that mania is genius, but if you've got the spark, mania just turns it into a raging wildfire. and probably helps in building support in others for your ideas. in general, it just gets things done.

 

[rhody]

Question 1: What, exactly, is genius? Please stay away from mention of IQ tests. Thanks.

mug,

I humbly offer "who", versus "what" listed in your question above: Richard Feynman one of my favorite people, may he RIP. His curiosity, honesty, mastery of physics (as it existed at the time in the 50's) accomplishments, personality, fun loving nature, and ability to teach and inspire young people, not to mention sharing the Nobel Prize for Quantum Electrodynamics (QED), from which he shunned the limelight and offers that followed subsequent to his award. Similar to Murray Gell Mann (another Nobel winner), young Feynman's curiosity was greatly inspired by his relationship with his father who encouraged him.

As to the question of what is genius, I could string together a whole list of recognized characteristics that have been said to apply to genius by others, however, I in my opinion, I would still come up short.

Rhody...

P.S. One of his books that I still have, "Genius, The life and science of Richard Feynman" by James Gleck is the third dog eared sad copy I own, the other two fell apart or were shared multiple times with others. I have read it many times and every once in awhile reread parts of it.

 

[OmCheeto]

P.S. One of his books that I still have, "Genius, The life and science of Richard Feynman" by James Gleck is the third dog eared sad copy I own, the other two fell apart or were shared multiple times with others. I have read it many times and every once in awhile reread parts of it.

Argh! I've been fan of R.F. since the Nova program "http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/listseason/16.html" , and I got an autographed copy. Like an idiot, I gave it away as an x-mas present.

hmmm...

Maybe I should ask for it back? You can do that to your brothers can't you?

"Say, I was interested in reading that book again, after 17 years, and seeing if it still holds up."

 

[lisab]

Argh! I've been fan of R.F. since the Nova program "http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/listseason/16.html" , and I got an autographed copy. Like an idiot, I gave it away as an x-mas present.

hmmm...

Maybe I should ask for it back? You can do that to your brothers can't you?

"Say, I was interested in reading that book again, after 17 years, and seeing if it still holds up."

1. Buy a copy of the book.
2. Go visit your brother.
3. Exchange it when he's not looking.
4. If it ever comes up, just say, "I guess Gleick must have used disappearing ink" and try to keep a straight face.

 

[Pythagorean]

observation, creativity, and practicality

observational powers allow creative insight to be applied to practical considerations in revolutionary ways.

OR

the insight to notice when a mistake is a discovery

 

[OmCheeto]

observation, creativity, and practicality

observational powers allow creative insight to be applied to practical considerations in revolutionary ways.

OR

the insight to notice when a mistake is a discovery

Something along that line. I've been thinking about Einstein for the last 47 years, and wondered about his; "If I were riding on a train at light speed" gedankenwhateverin.

Along that line, two questions that have always plagued me:

1. If blue cheese is moldy to begin with, how can you tell when it's gone bad?
and
2. If wine turns to vinegar when it goes bad, what does vinegar turn into...?

We need new genius's to answer these questions.

 

[Proton Soup]

2. If wine turns to vinegar when it goes bad, what does vinegar turn into...?

http://members.optushome.com.au/chelmon/vinegar.htm"

 

[OmCheeto]

http://members.optushome.com.au/chelmon/vinegar.htm"

Food for Rainbowfishies!

Thank you Proton Soup.



One question left.

Why am I addicted to a pale, moldy, and slightly blue cheese?

 

[lisab]

Food for Rainbowfishies!

Thank you Proton Soup.



One question left.

Why am I addicted to a pale, moldy, and slightly blue cheese?

It's delicious .

 

[Lost Again]

Question 1: What, exactly, is genius?

I think genius would be demonstrated by certain characteristics at a very early age.

There would be many questions. The answers would be remembered.
There would be an insatiable curiosity about everything.
There would be an exceptional ability to concentrate.

The most important would be the natural inclination to consider virtually everything that had been learned as either incomplete or incorrect. And finally, the acceptance of the fact that we are all quite ignorant. Not a paranoia, just an attitude.

The need to learn could never be satisfied. Learning would become the most important thing.

IMHO

Lost Again

 

[OmCheeto]

It's delicious .

I do believe you are correct.

And that's why I hang out at PF.

This place is full of genius's.

 

[chaoseverlasting]

Maybe genius is an attitude? Maybe its just another word for creative thinking? Perhaps using a non linear approach in a linear world? You break the current cycle of things, take a step back, see the whole picture, and point out the obvious.

Ironically, perhaps by this definition some of the high IQ crowd might not come under the term 'genius'.

 

[JaredJames]

A high IQ just means you did well on an IQ test. I don't like them personally.

I'd say genius is a mixture of various factors, the main one I see as being the way a person thinks, how they analyse and solve problems. That sort of thing.

 

[Lost Again]

When I was very young and in about the 5th grade in school, our school teacher presented each student with an empty Coca Cola bottle. They were made of glass then. We were required to examine our bottles and discover the differences between the bottles. Most of the bottles had the name of the city where the bottling plant was located. Most bottles had a slight green tint. Some were clear. All had evidence of small imperfections in the mold that made the bottle. We spent at least a couple hours in this endeavor. The instructor kept telling us to look closer, then finally find 2 that are the same. There were none. There were about 30 students = 30 bottles, but not 2 the same.

The lesson was "You must always look very carefully to see what is really there to be seen."

I'm sure that at least some of us never forgot the lesson.

Some come to learn, some to teach. We must be very careful who we send to teach.

Lost Again

 

[jgm340]

Mugaliens, there is no such thing as a genius.

There is nothing special which could separate an ordinary person from a "genius". Their brains are not more powerful. The only thing that the people whom we call "geniuses" have in common is working hard.

The idea of a "genius" only does our society harm.

 

[OmCheeto]

Mugaliens, there is no such thing as a genius.

Yes there is. Why else would it be in the dictionary?

There is nothing special which could separate an ordinary person from a "genius".

We have funny eyes.

Their brains are not more powerful.

P=IE!
I have lots of E.

The only thing that the people whom we call "geniuses" have in common is working hard.

Actually, I've never worked very hard at anything.
That's one way to spot us. We never seem to try hard at anything.
Check out that lame-o Chris Lalawhatever. He's a bouncer.

The idea of a "genius" only does our society harm.

hmm...

I think everyone should strive for genius. It's very a very zen thing in my book. The world needs more zen.

 

[Gokul43201]

I'm sure this is on the list of what not to do in this thread, but hey, this is GD:

 

[Evo]

I'm sure this is on the list of what not to do in this thread, but hey, this is GD:

 

[The legend]

 

[Lost Again]

Of course, there is this...

January 18, 2000


Among the Inept, Researchers Discover,
Ignorance Is Bliss

By ERICA GOODE

There are many incompetent people in the world. Dr. David A.
Dunning is haunted by the fear he might be one of them.
Dr. Dunning, a professor of psychology at Cornell, worries about this
because, according to his research, most incompetent people do not
know that they are incompetent.
On the contrary. People who do things badly, Dr. Dunning has found in
studies conducted with a graduate student, Justin Kruger, are usually
supremely confident of their abilities -- more confident, in fact, than
people who do things well.

continued...

http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/science/health/011800hth-behavior-incompetents.html

 

[Astronuc]

I'm so glad I don't drink Bud or Bud Light. I'm strickly microbrews or imports.

 

[jgm340]

Yes there is. Why else would it be in the dictionary?

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/unicorn

We have funny eyes.

Now you're just being silly.

P=IE!
I have lots of E.

There is no physical test one can do on the brain to determine with any accuracy whether one will be considered a genius by society.

Actually, I've never worked very hard at anything.
That's one way to spot us. We never seem to try hard at anything.
Check out that lame-o Chris Lalawhatever. He's a bouncer.

Einstein worked tremendously hard. Edison is quoted as saying, "Genius is one per cent inspiration, ninety-nine per cent perspiration."

hmm...

I think everyone should strive for genius. It's very a very zen thing in my book. The world needs more zen.

If "striving to be a genius" involves this:

Actually, I've never worked very hard at anything.
That's one way to spot us. We never seem to try hard at anything.

then I'd argue we shouldn't encourage people to strive to be geniuses.