What Does Radiation Do to Space Ice?

[Albertgauss]

TL;DR Summary

Anyone know of a video/animation of what ice in space looks like radiated?

A little more clear: I'm looking for a video or animation where I can visualize/see radiation on space ice (Europa or the Galilean moons). I know that radiation is invisible, but what does the ice actually look like or how does it change visually when its bombarded with gamma rays? Because its so hard to find a video of this, a good visualization analogous to the video will help out a lot.

For example, I did find the video below as it relates to radiation from uranium in regards to how radiation can be visualized as, but I can't find any other videos of ANY kind of radiation, space ice or otherwise.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...-36&sk=&cvid=76B1950B398C4C168CAA65FB0C8AFA37

If anyone knows of any such videos, that's what I'm looking for.

 

[anorlunda]

Are you expecting to see Cherenkov Radiation? If not, why should it look any different at all?

 

[Albertgauss]

I actually don't know. What I mean by that is that I don't know if radiation on ice is Cherenkov radiation. I've never heard of Cherenkov radiation in solid materials---water and air, yes, the former in nuclear power plants (there is one by Univ Penn I am aware of) and in air (Chernobyl explosion has Cherenkov radiation in air in HBO series by Chernobyl). If you know of any Cherenkov radiation on solid materials video, I would be interested to see that since I have never found that kind of video before. And if its some material other than Ice, I'll take what I can get. Its what would most closely resemble radiation in space on ice on a moon in space.

 

[anorlunda]

I would expect radiation in liquid water and water ice to be the same.

But why do you expect that there is any visual effect at all?

 

[Vanadium 50]

But why do you expect that there is any visual effect at all?

And, taking it ibe kevel further, we have pictures of moons that are largely ice. Why doesn't this answer your question about what ice "looks like"?

 

[Albertgauss]

"But why do you expect that there is any visual effect at all?"

It feels like there should be something different: ice that is getting pounded by intense radiation should undergo some kind of microscopic change, manifest at the molecular level if the radiation is strong enough. Radiation on a human being (99% water) will certainly cause a person to turn into glop, and I know of other materials that become brittle when radiated. So, stretching it, if other materials go through macroscopic, observable changes upon being radiated, I was wondering if ice had some observable effect as well.

But, I don't have any proof one way or the other; in fact, that is the point of this post: to find out if radiated ice exhibits any macroscopic, observable properties different from normal ice: if there is nothing visually different about ice getting radiated and ice that is not, I definitely accept that and move on. I had started this post looking for a video of radiated ice doing something weird, now I wonder if there will be even any effect to be noticed at all, even if in print.

 

[Albertgauss]

"And, taking it level further, we have pictures of moons that are largely ice. Why doesn't this answer your question about what ice "looks like"?"

That's a good point I hadn't thought of. Yes, you could be right about that, so obvious I didn't think of it.

A few details there: the pix of moon ice are taken from space from probes and such, I thought someone might have done experiments on radiating ice on Earth in a lab to see if the ice looks any different up close. Pix from probes are usually hundreds of kilometers above the surface of the moon; I was thinking about what if you stood on the surface of the ice itself.

Also, does the radiation continue on the ice in mostly a constant downpour on the moon(s) or does it come in waves/bursts of high or low intensity? If the former, you are correct, I have the pix I need of ice radiated space. If the later, and ice reacts differently upon being radiated or not, then what would patches of ice look like that had been freshly radiated verses those that it had been awhile they had been radiated, if any macroscopic difference at all.

 

[anorlunda]

Here's a picture of Europa. The entire surface is ice. My guess is that the red parts are caused by dust on top of the ice.

 

[russ_watters]

It feels like there should be something different: ice that is getting pounded by intense radiation should undergo some kind of microscopic change, manifest at the molecular level if the radiation is strong enough. Radiation on a human being (99% water) will certainly cause a person to turn into glop...

Does this mean you think there is intense gamma radiation in space? There isnt.

 

[snorkack]

I would expect radiation in liquid water and water ice to be the same.

But why do you expect that there is any visual effect at all?

Not I.
In water, the molecules are mobile. The high energy fragments produced by ionizing radiation - H, H⁺, H^-, OH, OH^-, OH⁺ etc., etc., should rapidly recombine into stable molecules - back to H₂O with no effect save heat, H₂, O₂ and a small fraction of H₂O₂, all of which are colourless/light blue (main absorptions in far UV and IR, with a small tail of the IR into red).
But in ice, especially ice at far below 0 degres, high energy fragments can get trapped in the solid. Do any of these - HO₂, H₂O₃, etc. etc. - possesses visible absorptions?

 

[Albertgauss]

Except for snorkack's post , it looks like that ice and water would not produce any visible effects if radiated. That seems to be the consensus. It also sounds logical that if water/ice is broken by radiation from Jupiter, it would just recombine to form water and ice molecules again, like the post says, you just got ice and water again. The heat would escape, would that mean that ice/water can glow in infrared when radiated?

@russ_watters -- what about x-rays in space, are they common or are they rare like the gammas?

Unless anyone has to add to snorkack's post, I'm actually good with the responses here. I don't know if the molecules at the end of snorkack's post have visible absorptions.

 

[snorkack]

It is not just "molecules" that I listed. Look at other examples: common crystal substances which are transparent and colourless - like diamond and quartz. Both become coloured on irradiation because they form defects which are "colour centers". It would be somewhat odd if ice does not become coloured on irradiation.
Of course, it is possible that some irradiation induced defects are colourless because their distinctive absorptions are outside visible range. But this does not mean that some other defects do not have visible absorption.
And of course, ice near 0 C may anneal away radiation damage, leaving just H₂, O₂ and some H₂O₂. But this does not mean "space ice" at low temperatures anneals all the same damage. For example, graphite does not melt till over 4000 C - yet Wigner energy is released around 250 C. At which temperature is Wigner energy in ice annealed away? And does ice full of Wigner energy look any different?

 

[Albertgauss]

I like it. Did we come up with some dissertation ideas? Just kidding there.

@snorkack, any videos of what you wrote about? If no radiation on ice, it'd still be useful to see radiation on the effects you mention, given how hard it has been to find videos of anything being radiated in a lab at all where a macroscopic transformation can be observed. I

I am surprised given the scarcity of videos on materials getting radiated; I feel like there would have been a lot of footage about this, especially since space and radiation-in-space, radiation-on-space-materials (built by humans or on moons, etc) are such active areas of research. I suppose not.