What is the role of Church vs State in defining marriage?

[russ_watters]

In any case, MRP, I'm sure you know those two words were added to the pledge by McCarthy during his communist witchhunt. Not something I'd want to associate my religion with.

The first amendment guarantees freedom of religion and its implication is separation of church and state. There is no argument here: the Supreme Court upholds this interpretation of the 1st amendment at every challenge.

MRP, its fine if you THINK a government SHOULD be based on and its power derived from religion, but the US isn't like that.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by russ_watters
In any case, MRP, I'm sure you know those two words were added to the pledge by McCarthy during his communist witchhunt. Not something I'd want to associate my religion with. Didn't know that one!
The first amendment guarantees freedom of religion and its implication is separation of church and state. There is no argument here: Agreed! the Supreme Court upholds this interpretation of the 1st amendment at every challenge.

MRP, its fine if you THINK WRONG! a government SHOULD be based on and its power derived from religion, but the US isn't like that.

Try mutual respect of the "Domains of Governance" of each other...

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by russ_watters
(SNIP) Its a pretty simple problem. The US isn't a "pure" democracy. In a "pure" democracy, EVERYTHING would be up for a majority vote including rights. (SNoP)

Disagree, the "purest form" of democracy is something akin to what I have going on, in my life. One individual fighting for his rights, and in winning those rights, winning those rights for "The Bunch", ALL of the "Bunch" gets it's rights, from the rights of one.

Therefore, a majority cannot take away a minorities rights, save for reason(s) that makes society "safer". (Why murder is illegal)

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons


Therefore, a majority cannot take away a minorities rights, save for reason(s) that makes society "safer". (Why murder is illegal)

This is ironic, since you seem to be in favor of the majority voting away the rights of the minority.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by Zero
This is ironic, since you seem to be in favor of the majority voting away the rights of the minority.

Did you possibly juxtaposition Minority and Majority??

Where do you get that I am in favor of a majority voting away the rights of minorities?

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
Did you possibly juxtaposition Minority and Majority??

Where do you get that I am in favor of a majority voting away the rights of minorities?

You do so when you suggest that religious groups have authority under the law.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by Zero
You do so when you suggest that religious groups have authority under the law.

To govern themselves, you would debate that?

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
To govern themselves, you would debate that?

If that was all you were discussing, then why did you bring up the national motto in support of your idea? Further, churches have the same rights to self-governing as any other club, and little more. For instance, they cannot commit crimes, can they?

 

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
To govern themselves, you would debate that?

The title of this thread is "Church V State" and you started the thread. You provided numerous quotes about religion taking an active part in government. And you use marriage as an example, and marriage is something that has both religious and legal implications. The implication of all of this is that you believe that religion can or should have authority in government.

Let me ask you this: do you think the 10 Commandments monument should have been removed from the courthouse in Alabama? Why or why not?

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by Zero
If that was all you were discussing, then why did you bring up the national motto in support of your idea? Further, churches have the same rights to self-governing as any other club, and little more. For instance, they cannot commit crimes, can they?

Because what they have is Authority in certian realms that is ceded to them by the state, just as they cede authority to the state, where required.
It isn't just 'self governing', in a manner, as both sides of the Authority(s) has (hopefully) respectfull involvement, with the other.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by russ_watters
The title of this thread is "Church V State" and you started the thread. You provided numerous quotes about religion taking an active part in government. And you use marriage as an example, and marriage is something that has both religious and legal implications. The implication of all of this is that you believe that religion can or should have authority in government.

Let me ask you this: do you think the 10 Commandments monument should have been removed from the courthouse in Alabama? Why or why not? Don't know! (That is for Americans to decide)

No implication of Religion having Authority in Government, but a requirment that the Goverment respect the Authority of the Church...can you figure out the difference?...in law, direction can decide everything...sometimes.
In some of the quotes I have tried to demonstrate that the two have inertwinings, religions "active role" in government is one of a respectfull authority making witness of the truth of an event, the swearing in of a President, Adding to the ritual nature of ceremony again by means of truthfull witness and reciever of attestament. Etc.(honest witness, not as easy to find as you might think, soooo)

It is "Church V State" in respect of the use and meaning of the Word Marriage, we seems to be going a little, well elsewheres, but that's good, cause that is how we might just get back to the answer we seek. (if you's seeking it too)

 

[Dissident Dan]

Zero described the situation well. The church has authority within itself. The church's rules govern the church. Just as a hockey club's rules govern a hockey club. But what you are trying to say is that a church has the right to impose its rules on the whole of society, even if many members of that society are not members of that church.

The government never had a principle of ceding any authority to the church. The state is the authority. We have legal protections to prevent the state from interfering in affairs related to religious establishments, but no where does the Consitution of the USA say that it gives religious establishments any power or authority. There are good historical and other reasons for that. Look at the tyranny of the Anglican church in England in England's colonial days.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by Dissident Dan
Zero described the situation well. The church has authority within itself. The church's rules govern the church. Just as a hockey club's rules govern a hockey club. But what you are trying to say is that a church has the right to impose its rules on the whole of society, even if many members of that society are not members of that church.

Agreed, but as you stated, concerning the Guilds, they have rights to what is historically ascribed to them, re: the word "Marriage"

Originally posted by Dissident Dan
The government never had a principle of ceding any authority to the church. The state is the authority. We have legal protections to prevent the state from interfering in affairs related to religious establishments, but no where does the Consitution of the USA say that it gives religious establishments any power or authority. There are good historical and other reasons for that. Look at the tyranny of the Anglican church in England in England's colonial days.

Firstly, sorry, but NOT just the USA please, and not just one Church, but the very idea of "Church(s)" meaning "Religion(s)" as back in history the "States" (Any, not nessecarily the US's) right to Authority grew from the Notion of the Churches Cedance to it.

 

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
Firstly, sorry, but NOT just the USA please, and not just one Church, but the very idea of "Church(s)" meaning "Religion(s)" as back in history the "States" (Any, not nessecarily the US's) right to Authority grew from the Notion of the Churches Cedance to it.

...but a requirment that the Goverment respect the Authority of the Church...

Because what they have is Authority in certian realms that is ceded to them by the state, just as they cede authority to the state, where required.

After the US, western style democracies do NOT exist under this principle. Back in the age of kings, it was believed that the right to govern came directly from God. Not anymore. The right to govern comes from the will of the people. God is IRRELEVANT to government. Religion has no power that it can cede to government. Government cedes no power to religion. They are separate entities with different roles in our society.

MRP, its fine if you think a government SHOULD be set up that way, but western governments are NOT set up that way.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by russ_watters
After the US, western style democracies do NOT exist under this principle. Back in the age of kings, it was believed that the right to govern came directly from God. Not anymore. The right to govern comes from the will of the people. God is IRRELEVANT to government. Religion has no power that it can cede to government. Government cedes no power to religion. They are separate entities with different roles in our society.
MRP, its fine if you think a government SHOULD be set up that way, but western governments are NOT set up that way.

Humm God is mentioned in Canadian Law, and as far as I know in British, as well.

You keep seeming to decide for me how I think, I really would appreciate that you stop that as it is wrong, judgmental in a manner that you have no right to be judgmental, as it is NOT you who knows just how I think.

That said, there are examples where Church and State interact, marriage is just one of the places wherein the Authorities of the two intermeld.

Your statement of God as irrelevant to State is, sort of Silly, if we replace "God" with the "Truth" (as that is what God is) and know the State for what it is.

As for government ceding power to Church, Humm, they pay no taxes, they can own property, collect charitable contributions and issue tax receipts for that, they are legally circumscribed (Definetely a function of government) and they have a historical right(s) to issues, and postions, on issues, that government acknowledges and is influenced by by way of the feedback of the (religious) voter.

Not so separate...

 

[Dissident Dan]

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
Agreed, but as you stated, concerning the Guilds, they have rights to what is historically ascribed to them, re: the word "Marriage"

They have the right to perform marriages, but they don't have the exclusive right, nor should they. As I've said before, for any person or organization to restrict other individuals from using a word or entering into an agreement with each other is absurd (unless the people are mentally or incompetant or incompetant to carry out the terms of the agreement, which is NOT the case here).

Firstly, sorry, but NOT just the USA please, and not just one Church, but the very idea of "Church(s)" meaning "Religion(s)" as back in history the "States" (Any, not nessecarily the US's) right to Authority grew from the Notion of the Churches Cedance to it.

Well, most of the people here live in the US. So, for us, we can use USA-based arguments as negation of your arguments. You cannot say something like "it applies in most cases, so it must apply to yours, too."

As Russ already stated, our government does not recognize its authority as coming from the church, nor has it ever. If you read our Constitution or Declaration of Independence, you will understand that.

That said, there are examples where Church and State interact, marriage is just one of the places wherein the Authorities of the two intermeld.

Yes, the government interacts with many entites--construction firms, military contractors, private citizens, foreign nations, agricultural businesses...

Your statement of God as irrelevant to State is, sort of Silly, if we replace "God" with the "Truth" (as that is what God is) and know the State for what it is.

That is what you believe, but that is not a tenet upon which all governments are formed. It is not a tenet upon which my government was formed.

As for government ceding power to Church, Humm, they pay no taxes, they can own property, collect charitable contributions and issue tax receipts for that, they are legally circumscribed (Definetely a function of government) and they have a historical right(s) to issues, and postions, on issues, that government acknowledges and is influenced by by way of the feedback of the (religious) voter.

There are lots of tax-exempt organizations that may collect charitable contributions and issue tax receipts for it, many of them not churches. Anyone or any corporation can own property.

And everyone has the right to having positions and issues and influencing votes.

Not so separate...

There are things in the US government that do contradict the 1st Amendment to the Constitution of the USA. Government was and is composed of many people.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Dissident Dan's quotation of MRP
Your statement of God as irrelevant to State is, sort of Silly, if we replace "God" with the "Truth" (as that is what God is) and know the State for what it is.

Dissident Dans responce to that "citation"
That is what you believe, but that is not a tenet upon which all governments are formed. It is not a tenet upon which my government was formed.

If what you state is true, then YOUR Government CANNOT be a JUST government!

All Justice, and the Ability to obtain it, is based in, and upon, the ability to adjudicate upon the most available/clearest truth of it.

They do not have exclusive right to perform mariages, as I have stated, the Authorities, the rights, of the two (2) Church & State are intermingled.

What Church should have is right to define "Marriage", as institution because they have historical right to it, BECAUSE State has right to civil union, and the adaptablity to use other terms to establish a separate staus for, similar, yet distinct, (Gay) couplings.

Must say, found it interesting that you had noticed that "Church" I had placed in Pink, but said nothing about my emboldening of the word Gay, discriminatory judgment excersized on the basis if the color of a word, but emphasis by emboldening carries not the same weighting...interesting...

 

[Zero]

You know what is interesting? In America, church weddings don't count unless the government says that they do. So, what authority do churches REALLY have?

 

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
If what you state is true, then YOUR Government CANNOT be a JUST government!

According to whom? In western political theory, what makes a government just or legitimate is deriving its authority from the people. God does not enter into the equation.

The US government is the prototype for most western style governments. The ideas for it came largely from Locke.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by russ_watters
According to whom? In western political theory, what makes a government just or legitimate is deriving its authority from the people. God does not enter into the equation.
The US government is the prototype for most western style governments. The ideas for it came largely from Locke. U.S.!?

Western Governments?, Like Canada?, with the Queen of England, the defacto "Head of the Church of England", being the Defacto "Head of State" of Canada, as derived from the 'British Parliamentary' system, is that what your not talking about?
"Authority" is derived from "Truth", and the "Will of the People" is an expression of "The Truth", (of those People) God is the Truth! Indistinguishable.
What makes a government "Just" is it's ability to achieve, or to be seen as achieving, "Just" outcomes in it's rule/governance, not specifically the same a "legitimacy". The manner in which it is derived from the people, is by election, or expression of "Truth" by those people, hence legitimacy.

 

[Zero]

Western style government, if it is derived from a 'heavenly' source, would not praise the Middle Eastern war god, but rather Zeus or Jupiter. Our government owes little to Jewish law, and tons to Greek and Roman thinking.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by Zero
Western style government, if it is derived from a 'heavenly' source, would not praise the Middle Eastern war god, but rather Zeus or Jupiter. Our government owes little to Jewish law, and tons to Greek and Roman thinking.

Personally, I suspect that it is the Originator of "Ideals" and "Idea's" that is Owed the Respect of Source...that, naturally, would be the Truth! (both ways!)

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
Personally, I suspect that it is the Originator of "Ideals" and "Idea's" that is Owed the Respect of Source...that, naturally, would be the Truth! (both ways!)

What sort of nonsense is this, exactly? Thomas Jefferson?

 

[Dissident Dan]

Mr. Parsons,

You are taking your own personal beliefs about the way that you think government should be found and should work, and acting like those are the way that things have actually come about.

Firstly, truth need not have anything to do with authority. If I have a gun and you do not, I can easily assume authority, whether that is right or wrong.

The Queen of England is a figure head with no real power.

I don't know about Canada's government, but my government does not claim to derive its power from god. But our government and culture say that government gets its power from the consent of the people, and that that (the consent of the people) is what makes it just.

You can argue all day about what you believe should be, but that is not what actually happened, so it is pointless to try to project your beliefs/desires onto reality.

My government does not give authority to churches to define marriage; laws dictate that. This is something that I am glad for. If two people want to dedicate themselves to each other and want the legal benefits of that, no church has the right to deny them that.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by Dissident Dan
You are taking your own personal beliefs about the way that you think government should be found and should work, and acting like those are the way that things have actually come about. Actually no, that seems to be what you think, I think, not what I really think, and know.
Firstly, truth need not have anything to do with authority. If I have a gun and you do not, I can easily assume authority, whether that is right or wrong. Hence, demonstrable that you have no idea what has been talked about in here as to what "Authority" really means, as you "assume authority", but, in truth you have none except the ability to subdue someone by Force, that is not authority, as authority subdues by force of RIGHT, ergo they HAVE THE RIGHT TO ACT!...you, do not!
The Queen of England is a figure head with no real power. Only according to you.
I don't know about Canada's government, but my government does not claim to derive its power from god. But our government and culture say that government gets its power from the consent of the people, and that that (the consent of the people) is what makes it just. So in your country if the people vote to permit Murder as an aspect of "Freedom of Expression" you will go along with that, cause you can't tell right from wrong! P.S. Popularity is NOT what dictates what is right and what is wrong, it simply makes "whatever" popular.
You can argue all day about what you believe should be, but that is not what actually happened, so it is pointless to try to project your beliefs/desires onto reality.
My government does not give authority to churches to define marriage; laws dictate that. This is something that I am glad for. If two people want to dedicate themselves to each other and want the legal benefits of that, no church has the right to deny them that. Nay, in your country Your President has Prayer Breakfasts and finds "absolution" for himself, and the entirety of the American Government (House and Senate) from the (insert name of religious guy who does that job, there)appearance of any responcibility with respec tto the 9/11 attacks without even so little as a question as to just what went on. Further is the simplicity that the laws are meant to regulate the legal connections 'twixt us all, so it is normal that governments should regulate things, but they are not to be dictating religious definitions to the Church, which, if they dictate a change in the definition of marriage, that's what they will be doing, forcing themselves upon the Churches!

Does that help?

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by Dissident Dan
You are taking your own personal beliefs about the way that you think government should be found and should work, and acting like those are the way that things have actually come about. Actually no, that seems to be what you think, I think, not what I really think, and know.
Firstly, truth need not have anything to do with authority. If I have a gun and you do not, I can easily assume authority, whether that is right or wrong. Hence, demonstrable that you have no idea what has been talked about in here as to what "Authority" really means, as you "assume authority", but, in truth you have none except the ability to subdue someone by Force, that is not authority, as authority subdues by force of RIGHT, ergo they HAVE THE RIGHT TO ACT!...you, do not!
The Queen of England is a figure head with no real power. Only according to you.
I don't know about Canada's government, but my government does not claim to derive its power from god. But our government and culture say that government gets its power from the consent of the people, and that that (the consent of the people) is what makes it just. So in your country if the people vote to permit Murder as an aspect of "Freedom of Expression" you will go along with that, cause you can't tell right from wrong! P.S. Popularity is NOT what dictates what is right and what is wrong, it simply makes "whatever" popular.
You can argue all day about what you believe should be, but that is not what actually happened, so it is pointless to try to project your beliefs/desires onto reality.
My government does not give authority to churches to define marriage; laws dictate that. This is something that I am glad for. If two people want to dedicate themselves to each other and want the legal benefits of that, no church has the right to deny them that. Nay, in your country Your President has Prayer Breakfasts and finds "absolution" for himself, and the entirety of the American Government (House and Senate) from the (insert name of religious guy who does that job, there)appearance of any responcibility with respect to the 9/11 attacks without even so little as a question as to just what went on. Further is the simplicity that the laws are meant to regulate the legal connections 'twixt us all, so it is normal that governments should regulate things, but they are not to be dictating religious definitions to the Church, which, if they dictate a change in the definition of marriage, that's what they will be doing, forcing themselves upon the Churches!

Does that help?

 

[russ_watters]

MRP, could you quote ANY political theory or government document that supports your position? Ie, something from Locke that says power to govern is derived from God? A passage in someone's Constitution that says something like 'We the people under the authority of God...establish this constitution for the United States of America?' Offhand references to God (as already pointed out) do not constitute a basis for government. http://www.island-of-freedom.com/LOCKE.HTM is a paraphrase of Locke's theory on government.

Locke is better known for his political thought. The first of the Two Treatises of Government is a refutation of the political views of Sir Robert Filmer. Filmer had argued that the authority of a king is equivalent to a father's authority over his children, derived from God's grant of authority to Adam. Locke argued that the father only has authority until the child becomes an adult, and that the king's subjects are not analogous to children. He also thought it was impossible to trace the descent of authority from Adam to the current King Charles II.

In the second treatise Locke set forth the view that societies emerge from a state of nature as a result of a contract made among individuals to submit themselves to a ruler or rulers. Against Hobbes, Locke argues that the ruler's rights as well as those of everyone are restrained by the laws of nature; the right to life, liberty, and property. The ruler's powers are given to him as a trust for the good of the citizens, and if the trust is broken his powers can be taken away. He believed that a monarchy with an assembly to hold the monarch to his trust was an ideal political arrangement. Unlike Hobbes he believed that principles of conduct were rational and humans could be trusted to follow those principles.

Note the direct rebuttal in bold of the right to govern coming from God. And note in the second paragraph where the right to govern really comes from - a contract made with the individuals of a society.

MRP, like it or not, that is what western government is based on.

 

[Dissident Dan]

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
Hence, demonstrable that you have no idea what has been talked about in here as to what "Authority" really means, as you "assume authority", but, in truth you have none except the ability to subdue someone by Force, that is not authority, as authority subdues by force of RIGHT, ergo they HAVE THE RIGHT TO ACT!...you, do not!

Main Entry: au·thor·i·ty
Pronunciation: &-'thär-&-tE, o-, -'thor-
Function: noun
2 a : power to influence or command thought, opinion, or behavior

That definition does not mention rights or being right anywhere. Being from Webster's, it is just as good a definition as any, and it is the most widely-used, from my experience.

The Queen of England is a figure head with no real power.

Only according to you.

What power does the Queen of England have then? Does she have power in Canada that she does not have in England? Anyway, either way, it is irrelevant.

So in your country if the people vote to permit Murder as an aspect of "Freedom of Expression" you will go along with that, cause you can't tell right from wrong! P.S. Popularity is NOT what dictates what is right and what is wrong, it simply makes "whatever" popular.

You are throwing a red herring. I never said anything about majority rules being right or wrong, only about modern Western government being founded upon popular consent.

 

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by Dissident Dan
[re:voting away rights]You are throwing a red herring. I never said anything about majority rules being right or wrong, only about modern Western government being founded upon popular consent.

We've also already discussed this and debunked it. I think it was even in this thread (or in the thread about the 10 Commandments monument). The Constitution provides for preventing a "tyrany of the majority."

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Citation of the russ_watters quotation of Locke
forth the view that societies emerge from a state of nature as a result of a contract made among individuals to submit themselves to a ruler or rulers.

Originally posted by Dissident Dan as definition of "Authority"
: power to influence or command thought, opinion, or behavior

So it is very clear, from the two statements, that the Authority is submitted to, as I had Stated, rights are ceded to.

AKA The Authority only has "Authority" because it is GIVEN TO THEM, all based in expression of Truth, AKA God.

Originally asked by Dissident Dan
What power does the Queen of England have then? Does she have power in Canada that she does not have in England? Anyway, either way, it is irrelevant.

Why do you bother?? asks a question, doesn't even care for the answer, why did you post this??

P.S. As figure head The Queen of England represents/is "The Crown" in legal proceedings, so persons charged, are so done, in her name, and position of faultlessness as to protect, simply, the right to do so, in the first place! There is also a representative of The Queen of England "Sitting" in the Parliament. Actual powers? probably, excersize of those powers? probably as little as possible?? (the "do no harm theory"??)

 

[Zero]

This is nonsense.

 

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by Zero
This is nonsense.

As much as I hate agreeing with you...

Yeah. MRP, that was utter nonsense. It makes no sense at all and you haven't substantiated anything you have said. You're putting words in Locke's mouth. Maybe I have failed in making you see reality, but I don't see where I went wrong: This is a very clear cut issue. I'm sorry, but reality isn't what you want it to be.

And though its not my arguement, you're at least as wrong about that Queen of England thing. A ruler who chooses not to wield power? Absurd. The Crown doesn't wield power because the Crown doesn't have any to wield.

MRP, again, it would help your case a lot if you could find *ANY* political theory work or political document to substantiate the things you are saying.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by russ_watters
As much as I hate agreeing with you...

Yeah. MRP, that was utter nonsense. It makes no sense at all and you haven't substantiated anything you have said. You're putting words in Locke's mouth. Maybe I have failed in making you see reality, but I don't see where I went wrong: This is a very clear cut issue. I'm sorry, but reality isn't what you want it to be.

I think we would also agree that legal authority in America derives from the citizenry, not any religion's deity. "We the people...", and not "by the grace of God", at least the last time I checked.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by Dissident Dan as definition of "Authority"
: power to influence or command thought, opinion, or behavior

So you think that The Queen of England doesn't have this; "The Power to influence or command thought, opinion, or behaviour" WOW! you guys ever missing out in what the reality of the world is!

Originally posted by Zero
This is nonsense.

Hey, really good argument!

Originally posted by russ_watters
You're putting words in Locke's mouth.

Actually, you are the one who provided me with access to his words, (hence the 'cited' "quotation", or didn't you notice??) so How the heck could I possibly be putting words into his mouth, without your, very clear, assistence.

Originally posted by Dissident Dan
That definition does not mention rights or being right anywhere. Being from Webster's, it is just as good a definition as any, and it is the most widely-used, from my experience.

Agreed as to 'authority' in simplicity, but as function of "Democratic Rule" the Right to that authority is ceded to the person.

Your President, as a human being, has no more Authority then anyone else, (roughly speaking) but excersizes the Authority that is ceded/given to the Office of the President of the United States of America by the expression of the Peoples of the United States.

I have no problem with that, just that all of that is based upon functioning "Truth", and the Truth is God.

That none of you accept that, heck! NOT my fault!
(maybe it is because you don't understand what "Truth", really is!)

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons


I have no problem with that, just that all of that is based upon functioning "Truth", and the Truth is God.

This is a Religion thread, not a Politics thread.