What's the point of having a dress code stricter than business casual?

[symbolipoint]

I agree about the tie, as well as seeing other problems with such a garment. On the other side, a tie may have its uses but not really important as a piece of clothing to wear.

 

[Mark44]

On the other side, a tie may have its uses

As a tourniquet, perhaps?
Or for those annoying sucking chest wounds, you can just wad it up and stuff it in there.

 

[Klystron]

I agree about the tie, as well as seeing other problems with such a garment. On the other side, a tie may have its uses but not really important as a piece of clothing to wear.

As a tourniquet, perhaps?
Or for those annoying sucking chest wounds, you can just wad it up and stuff it in there.

I have read that neckties originated as fashion wear during feasts, used to wipe wine, juices and gravy from mouth and fingers. That explains long fat ties but not other styles.

Author John Le Carre's perennial character George Smiley puts his wide fat silk neckties to good use polishing his eyeglasses. I OTOH find neckties smear my lenses. Perhaps lens polishing requires a finer grade of silk or lenses made from glass instead of acrylic.

 

[symbolipoint]

Some brief internet searching I did a few years ago exposed that ties originated as a way to let a group self-identify, something like but not identical to wearing a uniform - group identity. Romans may have done this.

 

[random_soldier]

I'm having trouble parsing this, but maybe you misunderstood what you were reading; by not being too specific, the manager was speaking with tact.

I was referring to the ones who made the request to the manager. From that post, they were said to be upset so it sounded like they were in a huff which seemed unfair especially considering from the sounds of the story and Klystron, seemed fairly arbitrary. That is what I was referring to.

 

[russ_watters]

I was referring to the ones who made the request to the manager. From that post, they were said to be upset so it sounded like they were in a huff which seemed unfair especially considering from the sounds of the story and Klystron, seemed fairly arbitrary.

Oh...ok, well I thought we at least agreed that fashion and dress codes/standards/conventions are pretty much always arbitrary except in the case of safety. So I'm still not really clear on what would be inconsiderate about making someone aware of even an unwritten convention. Heck, from their point of view they likely considered the new worker to be inconsiderate with his fashion choices, for not noticing and conforming to the convention.

FYI, I was in the military, where it is taught as a virtue to correct things/people you see that aren't right and to accept constructive criticism yourself. Dress codes are a minor example of that, but if we can't accept correction over something minor, then how can we be expected to accept correction when the stakes are higher?

 

[random_soldier]

My point is that, from what I can gather from the story, a gesture of good faith seemed to backfire a bit too drastically and it didn't sound like everybody was content to just notify the manager and go about their business, which I found a bit disappointing.

 

[berkeman]

From the SF Bay Area. Notice the West Coaster's shoes. The palm tree silhouettes and running shoes scream Southern California. Northern California dudes wear sandals

Speak for yourself please. I wear my worn out ASICS Gel running shoes for my daily shoes. Cycle them through every 6 months (Quiz Question -- Why every 6 months?)

 

[random_soldier]

They are that low quality. No offense but my experience with non "top" tier brands (reebok, nike, etc.) has been poor.

 

[berkeman]

Interesting. I've been running on ASICS Gels for probably the last `15 years. What brand and model do you recommend that I try? I'd be open to trying a new shoe for my runs...

 

[random_soldier]

Oh sorry. You were quizzing so I took a stab. I don't think I could actually give the best advice.

 

[russ_watters]

My point is that, from what I can gather from the story, a gesture of good faith seemed to backfire a bit too drastically and it didn't sound like everybody was content to just notify the manager and go about their business, which I found a bit disappointing.

Yeah, I guess I'm not following at all - I don't understand how either of those points apply.

Let me switch it up a bit. European countries also tend to have...different...standards of hygiene from the USA, and this is also a social convention that isn't necessarily clearly spelled-out in employee handbooks. Is it inconsiderate to point that out to a new employee from Europe - or to their boss - or inconsiderate of the employee from Europe to not notice and adjust to the culture of the new job?

IMO, employees have a responsibility to follow the company culture, managers have a responsibility to educate new employees about that culture and fellow employees have a right to complain to management when it isn't being followed. In fact, for the other employees, they are legally obligated to take their complaints to management instead of directly to their fellow employees (if that's what your point was).

 

[random_soldier]

Yeah, I guess I'm not following at all - I don't understand how either of those points apply.

What points? I thought I only made one.

Let me switch it up a bit. European countries also tend to have...different...standards of hygiene from the USA, and this is also a social convention that isn't necessarily clearly spelled-out in employee handbooks. Is it inconsiderate to point that out to a new employee from Europe or inconsiderate of the employee from Europe to not notice and adjust to the culture of the new job?

I don't see the comparison. If there is a bidet, I use that. If there is toilet paper, I use that.

IMO, employees have a responsibility to follow the company culture, managers have a responsibility to educate new employees about that culture and fellow employees have a right to complain to management when it isn't being followed. In fact, for the other employees, they are legally obligated to take their complaints to management instead of directly to their fellow employees (if that's what your point was).

All this can be avoided if an organization just explicitly states a dress code somewhere where nobody will miss it like said employee handbook.

 

[russ_watters]

What points? I thought I only made one.

These two:
1. "A gesture of good faith seemed to backfire..."
2. "...it didn't sound like everybody was content to just notify the manager and go about their business."

I don't know what "gesture of good faith" you are referring to and I don't know what you think "everybody" wanted to do beyond "...just notifying the manager and go about their business." Honestly, I can't connect either of those points to the scenario I read.

I don't see the comparison. If there is a bidet, I use that. If there is toilet paper, I use that.

Great! How about a shower and deodorant? What if you are use them weekly whereas everyone you work with uses them daily? Should you adjust and is it inconsiderate if you don't or if anyone points it out?

All this can be avoided if an organization just explicitly states a dress code somewhere where nobody will miss it like said employee handbook.

That's really difficult to specify and/or police. Even if a company specified a shower and deodorant application frequency, how would they prove whether someone was following those rules?

 

[random_soldier]

These two:
1. "A gesture of good faith seemed to backfire..."
2. "...it didn't sound like everybody was content to just notify the manager and go about their business."

I don't know what "gesture of good faith" you are referring to and I don't know what you think "everybody" wanted to do beyond "...just notifying the manager and go about their business." Honestly, I can't connect either of those points to the scenario I read.

1. The story mentions, that the person was trying to "fit in" through his choice of clothing. Gesture of good faith because he actively thought about his clothing choice to make his peers comfortable with him.
2. Poster used the word "upset" to describe those informing management of the new additions clothing. Pretty strong word, IMO to describe ones disposition.

Great! How about a shower and deodorant? What if you are use them weekly whereas everyone you work with uses them daily? Should you adjust and is it inconsiderate if you don't or if anyone points it out?

Can you tell when somebody has or hasn't? Unless they clearly haven't done so in a while, in which case I think the smell would get to them to. Otherwise, nobody is the wiser and everyone just goes about their business.

That's really difficult to specify and/or police. Even if a company specified a shower and deodorant application frequency, how would they prove whether someone was following those rules?

How does anyone else specify/police/prove it better?

 

[russ_watters]

1. The story mentions, that the person was trying to "fit in" through his choice of clothing. Gesture of good faith because he actively thought about his clothing choice to make his peers comfortable with him.

Fair enough. I would consider that just meeting an expectation ("good faith" I see as being above and beyond expectations/requirements), but I see your point.

2. Poster used the word "upset" to describe those informing management of the new additions clothing. Pretty strong word, IMO to describe ones disposition.

Agreed...I guess that's what you meant by being less than "content". I was connecting the word "content" to the action, not the feeling. I don't think people have much control over their own feelings and none over the feelings of others. But they do have control over how they act in response to those feelings -- and I thought the action was appropriate.

Can you tell when somebody has or hasn't?

Ooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhh, yeah. Unfortunately I had to have that conversation with a subordinate...multiple times.

How does anyone else specify/police/prove it better?

Exactly how it's being presented in this thread: it's largely complaint-based. I can't define a shower/deodorant frequency, but if it is insufficient, I notice, other people notice and complain to me, and I have to respond. Other than saying "have good personal hygiene" -- which is obviously quite vague -- I don't know how to write that in a personnel manual and there's certainly no way to specify or prove an actual frequency.

Fashion/dress codes can be more prescriptive, but there is also more variability. I see local or even national news stories almost weekly (why is this a big issue?) over school dress code problems.

 

[random_soldier]

Ooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhh, yeah. Unfortunately I had to have that conversation with a subordinate...multiple times.

Well clearly my standards are too high for people. I assume they would smell their own arm pits or something sooner or later and figure it out.

Exactly how it's being presented in this thread: it's largely complaint-based. I can't define a shower/deodorant frequency, but if it is insufficient, I notice, other people notice and complain to me, and I have to respond. Other than saying "have good personal hygiene" -- which is obviously quite vague -- I don't know how to write that in a personnel manual and there's certainly no way to specify or prove an actual frequency.

Fashion/dress codes can be more prescriptive, but there is also more variability. I see local or even national news stories almost weekly (why is this a big issue?) over school dress code problems.

I just don't see why you can't flat out write it down instead of things needing to come to complaints. For somethings it's hard but for things like men wearing short shorts, it seems straightforward. So why not just say no man should be wearing shorts that go above the knees in said organization? It avoids ambiguity and there being a lot more complaints than needed.

 

[symbolipoint]

So much effort to arguing about dress codes and cultural standards of dressing and grooming.

I would guess that one kind of "business casual" may be buttoned dress-shirt with collar; "dress" pants (slacks?) which would usually go with 'suite & tie' but without the 'suite & tie'; solid-color socks; "nice" shoes such as whatever would go well with a suite&tie OR neat-looking work shoes. No necktie!

 

[berkeman]

You were quizzing so I took a stab.

Oh, I get it now. No, in general you should get new running shoes about every 6 months or every few hundred miles, because they lose some of their cushioning effect. The whole reason for wearing running shoes on your runs instead of simple "sneakers" is for the specialized support and cushioning for your feet. Keeps your feet much happier!

https://www.fleetfeet.com/blog/how-long-do-running-shoes-last