What's Wrong with Schools These Days?

[Farmtalk]

Is it the school system's fault or the students, or both? It seems like more and more students are becoming more lazy and/or carefree when it comes to their studies. I see more of it with each passing day. There are still some students that appreciate learning and math, but the numbers seem to become less every day. So I thought I would ask, why does this seem to be happening?

Any swirling opinions out there?

 

[ineedhelpnow]

because students waste their time on other unnecessary thinks but they realize that none will benefit them in their future like education does.

 

[topsquark]

Is it the school system's fault or the students, or both? It seems like more and more students are becoming more lazy and/or carefree when it comes to their studies. I see more of it with each passing day. There are still some students that appreciate learning and math, but the numbers seem to become less every day. So I thought I would ask, why does this seem to be happening?

Any swirling opinions out there?

From my experience the problem (with Math and Science anyway) is two-fold: mandatory use of calculators in third grade and no experience with critical thinking. If the teachers are bad they lean too far in the direction of technology as the best (only!) way to teach, and if they are good they don't have enough time or access to resources to teach them to think through a problem properly.

Case in point: I once taught a Physical Science class in HS and the majority of the students were upset with me because I wouldn't give them questions with "nice" numbers. aka They wanted all of their answers to come out in nice and neat integers instead of decimals.

There is no simple fix to the problem and, in my humble opinion, the US government needs to keep its hands off the education issues because they haven't made a sensible decision in years.

-Dan

 

[ineedhelpnow]

as much i love using calculators during exams and get really upset at teachers that don't let us use them, i still agree that math/science exams should all be done without calculator. technology is getting smarter but people are getting dumber. one of the major complains i hear from some other students in my class is "oh but the numbers are to hard to calculate by hand". well its not like he's asking you to simplify $\frac{\sqrt{60}\pi}{\ln\left({12}\right)}$ into a decimal form.

 

[MarkFL]

I blame facebook. Before facebook arrived on the scene, things were pretty much okay, but now it's all going down the drain. :(

 

[ineedhelpnow]

i hate FB. as you all probably know I am more into cooler sites like MHB :)

 

[Ackbach]

I think John Taylor Gatto has hit the nail on the head as to what's wrong, with his two books: The Underground History of American Education, and Dumbing Us Down. Unfortunately, Gatto doesn't really have solutions.

I believe the solution lies in classical education. Books like Recovering the Lost Tools of Learning and The Well-Trained Mind, as well as Wisdom and Eloquence really show what can be done. Kids coming out of these schools are several cuts above public school kids, especially in the most important category of all: the ability to learn something new on their own, or "the lost tools of learning". If you're interested in this idea, check out Dorothy Sayers's speech "The Lost Tools of Learning", which you can google. It's incredibly powerful.

 

[Ackbach]

I blame facebook. Before facebook arrived on the scene, things were pretty much okay, but now it's all going down the drain. :(

Well, my opinion (just my opinion) is that things were pretty bad well before FB came on the scene. Try googling "A Nation At Risk". FB may not be helping, I grant you; actually, Twitter seems to be more the rage with the young-uns these days. I don't think Twitter greatly advances human intelligence.

 

[MarkFL]

Well, my opinion (just my opinion) is that things were pretty bad well before FB came on the scene. Try googling "A Nation At Risk". FB may not be helping, I grant you; actually, Twitter seems to be more the rage with the young-uns these days. I don't think Twitter greatly advances human intelligence.

I was actually just trying to be funny and playing up my role as the anti-social media guy...I think while the trappings may be ever changing, human nature is not, at least not on the same timescale. I think ever since older wiser people first sat down younger people and tried to impart some wisdom, there has been resistance, foot dragging and moaning.

 

[ineedhelpnow]

no need for fb, twitter. updating your status every second. just washed hands, just bought shoes. or if your in class: just rolled eyes at teacher...lolz

hehehe says the person that updates thread on every exam

 

[Deveno]

I think the problem is very deep. In a sense, the entire human race is collectively to blame.

As animals, our instincts were honed by many years (centuries? eons?) of adaptation. Survival was hard, food was scare, hazards of many kinds were in abundance.

Then...well, I don't know *exactly* what happened, but we got *organized*. We began to farm, domesticate our food supply, and beasts of burden, build houses, and communicate using language. We found a way to "beat the odds" and experienced a radical shift in the way we lived: not as animals, dependent on whatever providence brought; but with the luxury to plan, to choose, to strategize. We began shaping the planet, rather than the other way around.

In the space of a few short millenia, technology developed that let's us minimize labor expenditures, allowing many lives to be lead without requiring much hard labor at all. Instead of hunting, skinning, and boiling a stew in the communal pot, all one needs to do nowadays is grab a microwave dinner from the freezer and nuke it for a minute. Even as little as 150 years ago, this would have been prohibitively expensive.

In the wake of this, we have gotten...lazy. We expect our lives to be easy and trouble-free. The emphasis is on hedonism and convenience, we want it all, we want it now. Our schools are no exception; if it were possible to just down-load an education, it'd be happening.

Unfortunately, our brains have not been upgraded to keep pace with all this technological wonderment. We still learn the "old-fashioned" way: through experience. And too few people are asking the relevant question: should we be doing this, just because we CAN?

It is likely our rapacious desire for consumption will end abruptly with wide-spread shortages of materials for consumption. Wars over oil supplies will seem trivial once people start fighting over water, or breathable air. We are creatures of habit (habits being one of the "advantages" that allowed us to thrive in the first place), and will undoubtedly continue on our current course until it is no longer possible to do so.

Our schools are no exception: largely government-run, they share the same short-sightedness of your average human, perhaps even worse, because the current generation is taught by the previous, and there is a lag between what needs to be learned, and what is able to be taught.

One fine day, there will be nothing left to do, but for grandparents to apologize for the world they have left their grand-children, and it will be too little, too late.

Some things that would help: we need to be more aware of the treasure hidden in our past; for example, the message contained in a Greek tragedy is just as relevant today, as when it was written. History is important, the only hope we have for the future is to honestly look at where we came from, and where we are headed. Not a "white-wash" of how glorious THIS culture is, because WE happen to be in it, but an honest evaluation of what happened, and why.

We should also have a greater appreciation of the genius that allowed us to be where we are. For example, the Romans were competent engineers, and one should not take for granted that "newer" is necessarily "better".

I read a fabulous quote from some mathematician whose name escapes me now, but he said, in essence, that he had achieved what he did, by reading the Masters, not the students. If you want to learn how to use the English language as an artist does, read Shakespeare, or any of the great poets. If you want to be a mathematician, read papers and books by those who know of what they speak: modern textbooks, are, by and large, hack-work, and barely worth the paper they are printed on.

Another thing: if you are doing whatever everyone else else, you know only what is common knowledge, and there is not a whole lot to recommend, there. Dare to be different, to explore something new, for yourself. Following the crowd is fine behavior for a herd animal, it is demeaning for humans to act in such a fashion. The idea that "learning" is something that can be done, assembly-line style is, frankly, dehumanizing. If you know math (or science, or history, or music, or whatever) you ought to be able to "pass the test", but if you think that "passing the test" means you actually know something, you are fooling yourself. And many of us ARE fooling ourselves, because to acknowledge we are lacking in drive, in determination, in knowledge, in basic decency and humanity is...inconvenient. And remedying it is...time-consuming. Which means we can't have it all, and certainly not now.

 

[Farmtalk]

Well said Deveno! :D I think that hit a lot of nails on their heads!

I'm 20 years old, and I do have a Facebook. Like many other things, it's HOW you use it. I have many times considered ridding of my Facebook because I don't use it like most people. There are many people that are obsessive about sending "selfies" and updating your Facebook status. I have only used mine to keep up with friends and family, but I think honestly I would just rather have their phone number and call them sometime.

I DO think social media is part of the blame of why people are the way they are in terms of attitude toward education. There have always been people that never cared to learn, but I think it's at an all-time high right now. Social media is a great distraction- a "fun" distraction for younger individuals to get lost in. People on social media like to see who is most popular and has the best photos etc. I see it every time I log into it, and it bothers me.

I think as Devone said, as well as others, there are many reasons why people have the attitude that most have toward the sciences and mathematics. Laziness has a lot to do with it, as well as the technology side. I never will forget my 10th grade algebra 2 class. The teacher literally had HALF of the semester set aside for learning how to use one of the new TI-nspire calculators. We would spend an entire class time learning about how to use the different buttons and graphs and it really bothered me. The farthest we got in that class was complex numbers, which isn't that far.

I think people are very much inclined to do what they think is easiest. Some people would rather multiply 10 x 10 in a calculator just because they know it's faster than thinking in their head (Sad). Calculators are heavily used nowadays and it's very sad. I am a huge fan of calculators themselves, I own 5 including a TI-82, TI-83+, N-Spire CAS (Free!), and a Casio 9750 among others. However, I sparingly use them because they are like a debit card: They're easy to use and can cause trouble quickly.

Finally, I think parents have something to do with this as well. Unfortunately, many parents have similar attitudes about education. Some parents are very stern about learning, while others are not. I know some parents that are more happy that their daughters have 1200 friends on Facebook, than getting an A or a B in math, and I think that's sad.

I think there are a LOT of reasons, a very complex and deep problem indeed.

 

[SuperSonic4]

Education being used as a political football doesn't help. Michael Gove, the recently demoted transferred Secretary of State for Education was incompetent at best. In addition the government has moved to the right and the notion of individualism has taken root more than it did before whilst schools are all but pushed out of government control via financial incentives and call themselves academies/free schools. There was even a plan for an Islamist takeover in a few Birmingham schools (see Trojan Horse scandal). When teachers take industrial action a largely right wing press slams them for it implying that a number of parents see school as free babysitting too.

Of course it's churlish to suggest it is all the system's fault. I feel society has moved towards instant gratification rather than future reward, with social media you can get a "like" within seconds or minutes whereas in school there is a progression which is more true in maths and science where you have building blocks in one's knowledge (eg you have to know how radians work before a lot of trig or how powers work before learning complex numbers). At the same time I don't think we should read too much into this, when I was in school just over 10 years ago maths and science were not the most popular of subjects and I suspect that's been the case for a long time.

Another part may also lie in catering to the majority in the middle (I cannot blame teachers for this given limited time and resources) - those at the bottom cannot understand and give up whereas those at the top do not feel challenged and become bored. Only six of us took higher maths at GCSE from about 200.

Life at home also plays a part to play especially in more deprived areas of the country. From the best teachers being poached away to a lack of parental supervision/input there is an effect on education. This can also manifest as bad behaviour: where before parents and teachers would work together to solve problems and give praise where appropriate, now parents either don't care, don't have time to act or argue with the school. Children have been able to get away with more now, I do not advocate caning (it's ruling through fear) but a trip to the headteacher's office or a suspension mean little.

There are also environmental considerations to be aware of - dehydration and heat both adversely affect concentration. At work I can get a drink when I like but at school you couldn't drink in lessons. Consider that the most important exams take place in the summer and the implication is obvious. When children do well the media cries that exams are getting easier - robbing them of their work. No wonder morale plummets.

 

[Ackbach]

I was actually just trying to be funny and playing up my role as the anti-social media guy...I think while the trappings may be ever changing, human nature is not, at least not on the same timescale. I think ever since older wiser people first sat down younger people and tried to impart some wisdom, there has been resistance, foot dragging and moaning.

Gotcha.

Yes, I totally agree about human nature. I don't think it's changing nearly as fast as technology. In fact, I think you could make a great case that human nature - fundamental human nature - hasn't changed since the beginning.

Sure there's always been foot-dragging and moaning. There's always been laziness. But there is still an innate curiosity that the teacher should be trying to coax (read: prod, pry, force, elbow-twist) out of his students.

 

[MarkFL]

Gotcha.

Yes, I totally agree about human nature. I don't think it's changing nearly as fast as technology. In fact, I think you could make a great case that human nature - fundamental human nature - hasn't changed since the beginning.

Sure there's always been foot-dragging and moaning. There's always been laziness. But there is still an innate curiosity that the teacher should be trying to coax (read: prod, pry, force, elbow-twist) out of his students.

I agree completely that a good teacher can make a world of difference...as a child I had many teachers who inspired me to want to learn, who breathed life into the material, and others whose treatment of the material was pure drudgery.

It is a pure shame how little we as a society seem to value teachers.

Another thing I was thinking that has changed is the family. When I was a child way back when, the vast majority of families had a dad that was a provider, and a mom who was at home with the children. These children were sent to school well-groomed, in clean clothes, with the proper supplies, after having been fed a hot breakfast, and after having their homework looked over the night before. In other words, they were sent to school prepared to learn. Children don't get this anymore in general. They are left on their own to make sure they have clean clothes, do their homework and grab a couple of pop-tarts on their way out...if they're lucky.

When I was a child, my family ate dinner together at the same time every night, and as a group, with the one TV in the house turned off. My father would ask each of us in turn, me and my 3 sisters, what we learned in school that day. And we knew we better have something meaningful to report. I wonder how may parents today even ask their children how school went that day...and how many eat dinner with their entire family.

 

[Deveno]

Teachers should get paid more, period. What could possibly be a wiser use of our present resources than preparing for the future?

Yes, it would mean higher taxes, and the taxation system in MANY countries is laughably broken. That's a complex and separate issue. The thing is, if we (as a society) want more in our pockets now, at the expense of our children's legacy, then that's not just selfish, it's stupid. Pardon my bluntness.

Could (in the U.S.) a better oversight be provided by someone else than the Department of Education? Arguably, but it's probably a good idea to think this over carefully. Private corporations aren't necessarily know for their fairness, either.

I think the break-down of the nuclear family social model, plays a role, too. Look, I'm an open-minded guy, and I'm not one to tell other people how to live their lives. But children raised by a welfare mother, while an absentee dad is off doing whatever...it's not a good environment for fostering a sense of belonging, compassion, or even having an inner sense of worth high enough to justify the investment necessary for learning. Our young need to be cared for (we're mammals, after all), and a nearly world-wide ignorance of this basic fact is costing us dearly.

But..OK, so schools aren't what they should be, the curriculum is sub-par, the teachers are over-worked, and the distractions offered by the "fast-food" segments of the internet take their toll. What can one do?

As a student, do more than what you're assigned...learn to think for yourself. Don't be afraid to wonder why, and try to find out. This kind of quest turns out to be its own reward. As a teacher, same thing: do more than you're assigned-try to connect with your students, try not to write-off the ones who are failing, and try to encourage the ones with talent.

As a citizen: speak out. Volunteer. Write your congressman, or a letter to your newspaper, or heck, speak to your neighbors. Even better, lead by example: let your actions do the talking, it's way more impressive.

Social systems are there to provide a "default" to, essentially, fall back on when nothing else happens. Be that something else. The ideas from a single mind, can light the world on fire. And you never know if that person next to you, is that single mind.

(Note: while pessimistic, I am not a pessimist. I believe that the long-shot is always possible, even if unlikely).

 

[ineedhelpnow]

unfortunately i use my calculator for everything (Crying) finished a test in 30 minutes the other day because of it.

a lot of people say that the teacher doesn't matter. i think it does tho (unless you're in a higher level class) because they're the ones introducing the subject to you. i changed my major because of my last bio teacher. he was (No)

- - - Updated - - -

still love my nspire cx cas though. even if i don't use it. (Tmi) it is absolutely amazing (Rock)

 

[Deveno]

unfortunately i use my calculator for everything (Crying) finished a test in 30 minutes the other day because of it.

a lot of people say that the teacher doesn't matter. i think it does tho (unless you're in a higher level class) because they're the ones introducing the subject to you. i changed my major because of my last bio teacher. he was (No)

I remember my first math class in college, it was "Calculus in Vector Spaces", and I was totally lost. Having gotten straight-A's in high-school (and receiving 1st-year credit for getting 5 on my AP placement exam), I was dismayed to be struggling to get a C at my first quarter report.

For reasons I can no longer recall, I transferred to another instructor. And it was like all the lights went on! Everything fell into place, the guy was THAT good.

So, yes, the teacher certainly DOES matter.

 

[ineedhelpnow]

my first bio teacher in college was absolutely amazing. but then the second one came along aaaannnd... it's ok though. turns out i like computer engineering better then bio

 

[kaliprasad]

no need for fb, twitter. updating your status every second. just washed hands, just bought shoes. or if your in class: just rolled eyes at teacher...lolz

hehehe says the person that updates thread on every exam

if you just washed your hands and updated in the facebook you need to wash the hands again.

 

[ineedhelpnow]

if you just washed your hands and updated in the facebook you need to wash the hands again.

dont mean to ruin the joke but why?

 

[MarkFL]

if you just washed your hands and updated in the facebook you need to wash the hands again.

I love that...I will of course be telling everyone I know this one. (Giggle)(Rofl)(Evilgrin)

 

[Ackbach]

I agree completely that a good teacher can make a world of difference...as a child I had many teachers who inspired me to want to learn, who breathed life into the material, and others whose treatment of the material was pure drudgery.

It is a pure shame how little we as a society seem to value teachers.

Another thing I was thinking that has changed is the family. When I was a child way back when, the vast majority of families had a dad that was a provider, and a mom who was at home with the children. These children were sent to school well-groomed, in clean clothes, with the proper supplies, after having been fed a hot breakfast, and after having their homework looked over the night before. In other words, they were sent to school prepared to learn. Children don't get this anymore in general. They are left on their own to make sure they have clean clothes, do their homework and grab a couple of pop-tarts on their way out...if they're lucky.

When I was a child, my family ate dinner together at the same time every night, and as a group, with the one TV in the house turned off. My father would ask each of us in turn, me and my 3 sisters, what we learned in school that day. And we knew we better have something meaningful to report. I wonder how may parents today even ask their children how school went that day...and how many eat dinner with their entire family.

As I was home-schooled 4th through 12th grade, all of this was more or less par for the course. In homeschooling, you can be much more efficient, and you're essentially done for the day by 3:30, including all homework. That leaves a goodly amount of time left in the day to, say, learn a musical instrument, which we did (the piano).

I am 110% in agreement with you on this one, Mark. One father, one mother, who care about their kids, is the best environment for learning. Fundamentally, I would say that education is the parents' responsibility. They may delegate all or some or none of that responsibility, but it's theirs.

Teachers should get paid more, period.

Actually, I disagree. We've been raising teacher salaries for years, and not been getting better teachers. I'm not arguing that teachers should be paid peanuts. I'm just arguing that teachers have traditionally never been paid much, and that they should not be assumed to be after money only. For reference, I am a private school teacher, and my salary is probably a little over half what I could get in the public school, with my level of experience. My father-in-law, who is a good public school teacher, earns more in a year than I did in engineering!

What could possibly be a wiser use of our present resources than preparing for the future?

I'd agree with that, in general. However, given what the public schools spend per student per year, and get bad results, it's quite remarkable that the private schools spend so much less on their students, and yet turn out much better students. Socio-economic status couldn't possibly account for all the difference.

Yes, it would mean higher taxes, and the taxation system in MANY countries is laughably broken. That's a complex and separate issue. The thing is, if we (as a society) want more in our pockets now, at the expense of our children's legacy, then that's not just selfish, it's stupid. Pardon my bluntness.

If we had much more limited (and not mandatory) public schools, along with healthy competition, then I think the quality of all schools would go up.

Could (in the U.S.) a better oversight be provided by someone else than the Department of Education? Arguably, but it's probably a good idea to think this over carefully. Private corporations aren't necessarily know for their fairness, either.

How about abolishing it altogether and allowing local control? Beaurocracy has some pretty severe hampering effects on large school systems.

I think the break-down of the nuclear family social model, plays a role, too. Look, I'm an open-minded guy, and I'm not one to tell other people how to live their lives. But children raised by a welfare mother, while an absentee dad is off doing whatever...it's not a good environment for fostering a sense of belonging, compassion, or even having an inner sense of worth high enough to justify the investment necessary for learning. Our young need to be cared for (we're mammals, after all), and a nearly world-wide ignorance of this basic fact is costing us dearly.

Definitely agree here.

But..OK, so schools aren't what they should be, the curriculum is sub-par, the teachers are over-worked, and the distractions offered by the "fast-food" segments of the internet take their toll. What can one do?

As a student, do more than what you're assigned...learn to think for yourself. Don't be afraid to wonder why, and try to find out. This kind of quest turns out to be its own reward. As a teacher, same thing: do more than you're assigned-try to connect with your students, try not to write-off the ones who are failing, and try to encourage the ones with talent.

As a citizen: speak out. Volunteer. Write your congressman, or a letter to your newspaper, or heck, speak to your neighbors. Even better, lead by example: let your actions do the talking, it's way more impressive.

Social systems are there to provide a "default" to, essentially, fall back on when nothing else happens. Be that something else. The ideas from a single mind, can light the world on fire. And you never know if that person next to you, is that single mind.

(Note: while pessimistic, I am not a pessimist. I believe that the long-shot is always possible, even if unlikely).

Great thoughts!

 

[Deveno]

I think the general drift behind my suggestion that teachers be paid more is that we attract a higher-caliber of people to the job. Not necessarily the current batch, either. I think being able to teach young children is a talent, and paying people more just because their students are older doesn't make much sense to me. We shouldn't relegate these jobs to those who aren't making the cut as university professors.

Of course, I feel a lot of people should make more: policemen, firemen, soldiers, for example. Salary distribution within an organization is usually TERRIBLY unfair, with executives often earning 10 times what rank-and-file workers earn, often with substantially less effort and personal risk (I worked at a manufacturing plant once, where the plant supervisor made 50 dollars/hr, and the people running the rivet-punches made 8 dollars/hr...the plant manager was *never* in danger of losing his thumbs). I realize I'm painting a somewhat over-simplified picture, some professions require training which is expensive in and of itself, and if they can't recoup that through earnings, we won't have any such trained people.

Local control isn't that bad an idea, as long as certain minimum standards are satisfied. De-centralization of government puts people more in control of their own lives, and more invested in decision-making. I think that's a good thing. It also opens the door for creative and unusual solutions-in a bureaucratic hide-bound system, innovation usually can't survive the paperwork. Also, different areas are different: someone who doesn't know local conditions can't really make appropriate decisions for that area.

I think a lot of people who are home-schooled have a chance to be "better off than normal" (if the parents are serious about it). The teacher-to-student ratio, at least, is quite favorable. :)

 

[ModusPonens]

Is it the school system's fault or the students, or both? It seems like more and more students are becoming more lazy and/or carefree when it comes to their studies. I see more of it with each passing day. There are still some students that appreciate learning and math, but the numbers seem to become less every day. So I thought I would ask, why does this seem to be happening?

Any swirling opinions out there?

I didn't read the second and third pages, but let me just say that the problem is very deep and I don't see how it can be changed.

The problem is in the culture and mentality of the USA and the western world in general.

What's cool today is to be a jock or a cheerleader. Or (and), if you're intelligent, it's not cool to work hard. The focus is on being intelligent, instead of being acomplished. It's an anti-intelectual movement for which we will pay dearly.

Another important thing is that we don't apreciate what we have. At all. "Do I really have to study algebra?" We have free access to centuries of accumulated knowledge and human genius at our fingertips. It's a previlege to study algebra, not an obligation. Likewise with other subjects and sub-subjects.

Another more preverse thing is the effect that advertising has on all people. In the west people hate themselves a lot more than in the east. And I think this is because of the pressure that advertising puts on us to be successfull in all that we do. Failing to live up to that ideal has deep effects on people. And the funny thing is that students feel this pressure from young age so they don't even try.

And finaly, I think it also has to do with the unsatisfactory nature of the human experience. We can never get satisfied. Wether we have a billion dollars, or a fantastic wife, or the best job in the world, we still feel empty inside. And I think that in the western world, since the basic needs are supressed for most people, that void becomes more salient. And the result is apathy, because people don't know what to do about it.

 

[Farmtalk]

I didn't read the second and third pages, but let me just say that the problem is very deep and I don't see how it can be changed.

The problem is in the culture and mentality of the USA and the western world in general.

What's cool today is to be a jock or a cheerleader. Or (and), if you're intelligent, it's not cool to work hard. The focus is on being intelligent, instead of being acomplished. It's an anti-intelectual movement for which we will pay dearly.

Another important thing is that we don't apreciate what we have. At all. "Do I really have to study algebra?" We have free access to centuries of accumulated knowledge and human genius at our fingertips. It's a previlege to study algebra, not an obligation. Likewise with other subjects and sub-subjects.

Another more preverse thing is the effect that advertising has on all people. In the west people hate themselves a lot more than in the east. And I think this is because of the pressure that advertising puts on us to be successfull in all that we do. Failing to live up to that ideal has deep effects on people. And the funny thing is that students feel this pressure from young age so they don't even try.

And finaly, I think it also has to do with the unsatisfactory nature of the human experience. We can never get satisfied. Wether we have a billion dollars, or a fantastic wife, or the best job in the world, we still feel empty inside. And I think that in the western world, since the basic needs are supressed for most people, that void becomes more salient. And the result is apathy, because people don't know what to do about it.

Well said, so I think it's a multitude of things that just accumulate on top of one another. I wish this could be fixed, but it certainly doesn't look bright in my opinion. It makes me less and less eager to have children.

 

[Deveno]

Well said, so I think it's a multitude of things that just accumulate on top of one another. I wish this could be fixed, but it certainly doesn't look bright in my opinion. It makes me less and less eager to have children.

I don't think you need take things THIS far-but if anything, take with you the certain knowledge "you can't trust the schools" to educate your children. It's on YOU, to see that this happens.

This is not to say that said children "wouldn't learn anything from school". They may learn a great deal. It will, however, be your responsibility to be vigilant, and see that you do your best to prepare them for various things that schools cannot, or will not, do.

Teachers are NO substitute for loving parents, however much some parents might wish this be so. If you create a life, you are beholden to it, by that very act.

The internet has been mentioned many times in this thread, as a source of some distractions, which are in some sense "life-sapping". But the internet itself is morally neutral, it's what you do with it that counts. There are many WONDERFUL educational sites out there, knowledge of the ages available to all, music of all genres, art painted by the masters of every age and country.

The advent of the e-book, means you can hold an entire library in your palm, and many of the books you might read that way, are FREE (a surprising amount of literature falls in the public domain, or is made freely available by the copyright-holder).

Human beings have certain tendencies that can work against their own best interest. The BEST remedy for this is "self-discipline"(some examples: watching what you eat if you are prone to "binging" on food, or making sure you exercise, if your daily routine doesn't include much, or deepening one's spiritual faith, if you are tempted to act immorally), rather than seeking for our "social system" to make sure everything runs smoothly. We CAN learn to tell ourselves "no", and we can pass on that knowledge to our children, who will begin their lives by imitating the people they know best, their parents.

 

[ineedhelpnow]

home school your kids. their education will be under your hands. i think its a great idea if the parents are educated enough to help their child.

 

[Math Amateur]

I didn't read the second and third pages, but let me just say that the problem is very deep and I don't see how it can be changed.

The problem is in the culture and mentality of the USA and the western world in general.

What's cool today is to be a jock or a cheerleader. Or (and), if you're intelligent, it's not cool to work hard. The focus is on being intelligent, instead of being acomplished. It's an anti-intelectual movement for which we will pay dearly.
Another important thing is that we don't apreciate what we have. At all. "Do I really have to study algebra?" We have free access to centuries of accumulated knowledge and human genius at our fingertips. It's a previlege to study algebra, not an obligation. Likewise with other subjects and sub-subjects.

Another more preverse thing is the effect that advertising has on all people. In the west people hate themselves a lot more than in the east. And I think this is because of the pressure that advertising puts on us to be successfull in all that we do. Failing to live up to that ideal has deep effects on people. And the funny thing is that students feel this pressure from young age so they don't even try.

And finaly, I think it also has to do with the unsatisfactory nature of the human experience. We can never get satisfied. Wether we have a billion dollars, or a fantastic wife, or the best job in the world, we still feel empty inside. And I think that in the western world, since the basic needs are supressed for most people, that void becomes more salient. And the result is apathy, because people don't know what to do about it.

I certainly agree with your remark (and the sentiments behind it) when you write:

"It's a privilege to study algebra, not an obligation."

Peter

 

[Math Amateur]

I don't think you need take things THIS far-but if anything, take with you the certain knowledge "you can't trust the schools" to educate your children. It's on YOU, to see that this happens.

This is not to say that said children "wouldn't learn anything from school". They may learn a great deal. It will, however, be your responsibility to be vigilant, and see that you do your best to prepare them for various things that schools cannot, or will not, do.

Teachers are NO substitute for loving parents, however much some parents might wish this be so. If you create a life, you are beholden to it, by that very act.

The internet has been mentioned many times in this thread, as a source of some distractions, which are in some sense "life-sapping". But the internet itself is morally neutral, it's what you do with it that counts. There are many WONDERFUL educational sites out there, knowledge of the ages available to all, music of all genres, art painted by the masters of every age and country.

The advent of the e-book, means you can hold an entire library in your palm, and many of the books you might read that way, are FREE (a surprising amount of literature falls in the public domain, or is made freely available by the copyright-holder).

Human beings have certain tendencies that can work against their own best interest. The BEST remedy for this is "self-discipline"(some examples: watching what you eat if you are prone to "binging" on food, or making sure you exercise, if your daily routine doesn't include much, or deepening one's spiritual faith, if you are tempted to act immorally), rather than seeking for our "social system" to make sure everything runs smoothly. We CAN learn to tell ourselves "no", and we can pass on that knowledge to our children, who will begin their lives by imitating the people they know best, their parents.

Deveno writes:

"The internet has been mentioned many times in this thread, as a source of some distractions, which are in some sense "life-sapping". But the internet itself is morally neutral, it's what you do with it that counts."

Indeed: one excellent example is the Math Help Boards, which makes a real positive difference to my life … and, I suspect, others lives as well ...

Peter