Why aren't hydrogen fuel cell cars more popular than conventional batteries?

[mheslep]

US DOE has an extensive, in depth, resource on http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/" .

Each report multi MB pdf.

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/program/2007_avtae_report.pdf"

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/program/2007_hvso_report.pdf"

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/program/2007_apeem_report.pdf" 9MB

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/program/2007_energy_storage.pdf" - everything A-Z on batteries. Ultracap section.

http://www.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/program/2005_ace_merit_review.pdf" - mainly just improved efficiency of traditional ICE but also includes hydrogen based ICE

 

[taylaron]

organic fuel cells -fixing the nano-scale problem

Hey, I know this is a bit of a stretch from the traditional way of thinking about fuel cells (and I am certainly no expert) but what is the likelihood of genetically designing a fuel cell? couldn't you use stem cell technology to start the growth of a fuel cell that uses its cells as the building blocks of a incredibly intricate cell. wouldn't that increase the efficiency of fuel cells because we currently don't have a reliable way of making a fuel cell of the complexity and practical size (thus cost) that consumers require. (to my understanding)
I don't know where we are in the bio-engineering stage right now but I certainly think it should be further looked into. heck, we've had some success in growing human organs from stem cells.

this is more of a question than a statement. my entire understanding of this technology could be far off.


see: Growing New Organs http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/4212851.html"


thanks,
Taylaron

 

[mheslep]

Taylaron: do a little introductory reading on fuel cells, as what you are suggesting is not relevant to the current technology. The limitations are not from complexity or size (see up thread, some very large fuel cells have been built). One limitation of PEM fuel cells is the cost of the catalyst material required, platinum.

 

[thatotherguy]

Maybe y'all can help out automakers in figuring out a way to make them fuel cells practical for automotive application. I understand that the BMW 7 is already a "production" car which means that it is ready for the road but not yet available in the market because of course of its price. By the way, would using a fuel cell displace the use of some http://www.autopartsdeal.com/"?

 

[mheslep]

By the way, would using a fuel cell displace the use of some http://www.autopartsdeal.com/"?

Absolutely. Take a look at this "[URL car
[/URL]. Its a pure electric battery play, no fuel cell, but you can get the idea by imagining a fuel cell in place of some of the battery load. The transmission and its losses are gone, as is all of those pumps usually seen running off belts on a normal combustion system: alternator, the whole combustion engine oil lubrication system is gone, etc, etc.

 

[thatotherguy]

cool. that means the auto industry has to cope up with that change too right? hopefully, not too many employees working on factories manufacturing these displaced parts would be, well, displaced.

 

[mheslep]

The Tesla recently, finally, went into production. Leno did a piece on it.
http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/video/video_player.shtml?vid=229378\

So did Motortrend
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/alternative/112_0803_2008_tesla_roadster

 

[bassplayer142]

Wouldn't it be smarter to just have plants where the hydrogen cells are turned into electricity. Then you charge your car. I don't see why there is a need for the car to be the source in the first place. All you need is a good battery.

 

[russ_watters]

That would be redundant, bassplayer. The hydrogen plant would be sitting next to a regular power plant.

The point of fuel cell cars is to use the fuel cell instead of a battery.

 

[bassplayer142]

I just don't see how it is more economical to use the fuel cell in a car instead of at some plant instead.

 

[chroot]

Conventional batteries weigh a ton, take time to recharge, have limited lifespans, and most pollute the environment with heavy metals.

Hydrogen fuel cells are a type of battery, since, just like any other battery, they convert chemical energy into electrical energy. Fuel cells just happen to be a much better kind of battery for automotive applications because they don't weigh much, can be recharged essentially "instantly," and do not use large quantities of toxic metals.

- Warren

 

[mheslep]

That would be redundant, bassplayer. The hydrogen plant would be sitting next to a regular power plant.

The point of fuel cell cars is to use the fuel cell instead of a battery.

As discussed up thread in https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=1585492&postcount=23" and by chroot in #26 its advantageous to use both. Fuel cell to provide average power and traditional batteries or utracaps to provide peak power. Edit: The FC is far too expensive per kw to stand alone.

 

[mheslep]

Conventional batteries weigh a ton, take time to recharge, have limited lifespans, and most pollute the environment with heavy metals.

Hydrogen fuel cells are a type of battery, since, just like any other battery, they convert chemical energy into electrical energy. Fuel cells just happen to be a much better kind of battery for automotive applications because they don't weigh much, can be recharged essentially "instantly," and do not use large quantities of toxic metals.

- Warren

Perhaps you are referring to future performance for fuel cells? Of the metrics listed here, I believe only time-to-recharge (refuel) is an advantage of todays fuel cells over todays batteries. I'd also add range extension, if the fuel is methane or methanol, since an all electric vehicle can really only take round trips without a long stop over.

Weight:
A fair comparison to batteries/ultra caps must include storage tank which, because of the volume required for H2, is inevitably massive. Thus fuel cell kg + tank kg + plumbing kg + fuel kg, I doubt there's much of a weight advantage over Li ion cells. Replace H2 fuel with methane or methanol and then you must add the weight of the reformer. For comparison the http://www.teslamotors.com/performance/perf_specs.php" , ~3400lbs curb weight, 100kw fuel cell is 220lbs/ ~200mi, can't dig up the tank or plumbing weight. The FCX

Life Cycle:
- Time
Fuel cells are subject to stack poisoning from any practical H source. Imperfect water management and disposal over the temp. range of vehicles also reportedly harms FC life. Though the DOE goals are 40,000 hrs, practically I read ~3000 hrs is the current reality. LiIon, at least per the Tesla, is 100,000 mi/10 yrs or again perhaps 3000hrs.
- Disposal
Li Ion batteries are not classified as hazardous waste in the US and can go to the dump unlike lead acid. Dump disposal is not desirable, but then PEM fuel cells (ala the Honda) contain heavy metal catalysts and shouldn't be tossed down in the storm drain either.