Why cats are smarter than dogs

[xTheFormlessOnedx]

So I was reading about this topic on google. It brought me here where I was reading about a 2017 thread about why dogs are smarter than cats. The original poster wanted to know exactly what brain region is responsible for why dogs are smarter. A moderator closed the thread stating everything that could be said was said. I disageee, so Iiterally made an account to post this. I feel dissapointed because the question about the brain was not addressed. I have been reading that generally neurons in dogs greatly outnumber those of cats.

Here is the very simple but overlooked issue. Why do anatomy labs use pigs and cats for dissection? Why do they never use dogs? It is because cat anatomy is more similar to humans than dogs. That includes brain structure. While dogs may have more neurons in total, the cat brain is anatomically more human like. Money point: it's the folds, connections, and overall structure of the cat brain that makes it superior to the larger dog brain.

Their eyes are spaced more human like compared to dogs. When my cat is far away and looking at me, its really weird and creepy because it is human like. Lol actually she is cute and precious. What is also really weird and creepy about cats in a cool way. They can sound very human/infant like. Feral cats outside can literally sound like human infants crying (this cannot be understated). They can overall sound more human like compared to dogs. They have a higher variety of vocalizations they can make in general.

From my reading, it is accepted they have both short and long term memory that is respectable, and superior to dogs.


While dogs can be trained. My cat understands many words like a dog can. But everyone knows they are analytical and good at problem solving.


All in all. We know their brain structure is more human like because you see cats in anatomy labs. Not dogs. The connections, folds and overall structure outweigh the higher number of neurons in dogs, and relative higher brain mass to body ratio. Analytics and problem solving is more impressive to me than trainabity. Cats just seem like 4 to 6 year old humans to me, whereas dogs seem more infant like.

 

[Hornbein]

"this cannot be understated)"

Overstated.

Young sheep very much sound like babies. I can't tell them apart.

I once had a sandal with a leaky air chamber. It sounded exactly like a kitten.

 

[DaveE]

Cockroaches are the smartest at being cockroaches, much more so than humans. Elephants are the smartest at being elephants and living in their environment with their specific constraints. Whenever I hear someone speak of "intelligence" metrics between species, I think they just really don't understand evolution at all. E. Coli is really smart at being a gut bacteria, they are more successful than humans, or cats, in most any objective metric. Unless, of course, you chose to use some warped human centric view of what's intelligent.

OK, we get it, you like cats and apparently dislike dogs. Why did you choose these two creatures? What prize are you trying to win by proving cats are better than dogs, cockroaches, fungus, or chimps? By what objective standard will you prove this?

Disclaimer: I like cats but they make me sneeze, so I can't live with them. I train detection dogs in my retirement job, mostly just for fun. They are both cool in their own unique ways, IMO.

 

[nuuskur]

I have 5 questions right off the bat.

It is because cat anatomy is more similar to humans than dogs.

What. Does. That. Even. Mean?!?!!!!

How do you measure similarity??

 

[xTheFormlessOnedx]

Hornbein. Sheep can sound very human like. Their are videos. Yes. Overstated. Good catch. Their is actully a yt video. With a goat. People called the police because they thought a human was being tortured. I think cats sound more human like than sheep can. My cat literally sais hi back to me. In the form of a trill.

DaveE: I LOVE dogs. They are very special to me. I switched to cats because i wanted a pet and cant care for a dog. So here is the point of the post. In 2017, a poster made a thread asking what part of the brain accounts for superior intelligence of dogs compared to cats. They were asking about the brain specifically. The thread got closed without the posters question being answered. So i felt compelled to make this. Cats are used in anatomy labs because of more human like anatomy, and more human like brain. Its not a particular brain region. But the overall more human like structure, folds, connections. The folds and connections of the cat brain outweight the higher brain mass, relative brain mass and neurons of dogs. This answers an unanswered question in a thread from 2017.

 

[xTheFormlessOnedx]

I have 5 questions right off the bat.

What. Does. That. Even. Mean?!?!!!!

How do you measure similarity??

Muscles and attachments. Nerves. Arteries. Veins. Bones. Organs. Eyes. Brains. Etc. Everything an anatomy student would dissect in lab. Both cats and pigs are more similar to humans. That is why students dissect cats and pigs. Not dogs.

 

[DaveE]

In 2017, a poster made a thread asking what part of the brain accounts for superior intelligence of dogs compared to cats.

Maybe that thread was closed because it was a meaningless question. IDK, I didn't read it. Is it really worth resurrecting?
Say what you want to say or ask what you want to ask. An 8 year old closed thread isn't really the point, is it?

 

[Rive]

You are just comparing hammers with saws by their yellowness, and complaining when bananas starts to pop up.

Cats were domesticated to autonomously regulate vermin around the house.
Dogs were expected to play assistants in mixed packs.
Neither of them is expected to fill up IQ tests.
I can assure you that any cat would do very poorly in an IQ test made for dogs. And, of course: dogs would fail on IQ tests of cats.
And you would fail spectacularly in both case.
Would that make cats and dogs smarter than you?

 

[berkeman]

I train detection dogs in my retirement job, mostly just for fun.

Very cool, thanks for doing that work.

In my experience, hunting dogs can be among the smartest of all the dog types. I was hog hunting with my best friend many years ago here in Northern California and he had his black lab "Wedgie" along for the hunt. She was a very smart hunting dog, but my buddy explained to me that sometimes she could be a bit stubborn, and was getting old enough that he though she was getting hard of hearing as well. He had always been pretty strict with her, especially when hunting.

It had rained pretty hard overnight, which made it easier to visually track the hogs in the wet grass (but harder for Wedgie to smell their tracks). My buddy and I split up at one point, and he had me take Wedgie with me to circle a hill. I tried my best to give her verbal commands and use pointing to show here where I wanted her to go, but several times she decided she wanted to go a different way. Maybe it was the scents blowing on the morning breezes, or maybe she was just being obstinate.

At one point I really wanted her to follow me down a trail, but she was standing about 30 yards from me just looking at me while I hollered for her to come to me. "Wedgie, come here! Come here!" I finally picked up a 4" branch that was laying on the ground and figured I'd drive the point home by smacking the tree that I was standing by. "Wedgie, come here! BAM!!" But when I hit the trunk of that tree, all the water sitting on the leaves above me fell down and completely dowsed me with water. Sheesh!

I could visibly see Wedgie laugh with a couple guffaws, and then she turned and walked away. I guess she figured she'd made her point about which one of us was the smarter one...

 

[xTheFormlessOnedx]

Maybe that thread was closed because it was a meaningless question. IDK, I didn't read it. Is it really worth resurrecting?
Say what you want to say or ask what you want to ask. An 8 year old closed thread isn't really the point, is it?

View attachment 355395

Dave. The poster never had their question answered. Which was about brain differences, or differences in region/s of the brain. The answer to his question was more human like: STRUCTURE, CONNECTIONS, FOLDS. FOLDS AND CONNECTIONS IN THE BRAIN ARE MORE IMPORTANT THAN OVERALL BRAIN MASS AND NEURON COUNT. It is extremely remarkable how much larger a dog's relative and absolute brain mass is compared to a cat, yet a cat has very impressive capabilities due to the FOLDS, CONNECTIONS AND MORE HUMAN LIKE BRAIN STRUCTURE. As evidenced by the fact that cats are used in anatomy labs no dogs.

The poster was asking what brain region accounts for dog intelligence compared to cats. IT was the wrong question to be asking. You need to look at overall structure/folds/connections of the brain.

 

[xTheFormlessOnedx]

You are just comparing hammers with saws by their yellowness, and complaining when bananas starts to pop up.

Cats were domesticated to autonomously regulate vermin around the house.
Dogs were expected to play assistants in mixed packs.
Neither of them is expected to fill up IQ tests.
I can assure you that any cat would do very poorly in an IQ test made for dogs. And, of course: dogs would fail on IQ tests of cats.
And you would fail spectacularly in both case.
Would that make cats and dogs smarter than you?

The topic is about brain differences. The smaller cat brain, with its more human like structure/folds/connections is maybe superior to the dog's brain with higher relative and absolute brain mass.

 

[berkeman]

The answer to his question was more human like: STRUCTURE, CONNECTIONS, FOLDS. FOLDS AND CONNECTIONS IN THE BRAIN ARE MORE IMPORTANT THAN OVERALL BRAIN MASS AND NEURON COUNT. It is extremely remarkable how much larger a dog's relative and absolute brain mass is compared to a cat, yet a cat has very impressive capabilities due to the FOLDS, CONNECTIONS AND MORE HUMAN LIKE BRAIN STRUCTURE. As evidenced by the fact that cats are used in anatomy labs no dogs.

Why are you posting in all caps? Please don't do that -- it is considered yelling in discussion forums.

Also, can you provide a link to that 2017 thread please? I'm not able to find it with a PF Search so far...

 

[xTheFormlessOnedx]

Why are you posting in all caps? Please don't do that -- it is considered yelling in discussion forums.

Also, can you provide a link to that 2017 thread please? I'm not able to find it with a PF Search so far...

Very kindly. The purpose of my original post is very clear. I needed to correct the poster not once, but twice. So yes, the second time I needed to correct the poster was in all caps. I am not yelling or screaming on my end. I am just trying to help the poster focus on the actual issue. Overall brain structure, folds, connections. There, I think using bold is more of what I am trying to get at then using caps. No matter how many times I type overall structure, folds, connections, people are just missing it.

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/why-are-dogs-more-intelligent-than-cats.900001/

Why are dogs more intelligent than cats?

 

[berkeman]

There, I think using bold is more of what I am trying to get at then using caps.

Thank you for using bold instead. As long as the use for hilighting is valid, bold should be fine.

No matter how many times I type overall structure, folds, connections, people are just missing it.

Can you post a couple links to scientific papers that make the comparison of these between dogs and cats? When there are assertions like this, it is generally required at PF that scientific links are posted. Thank you.

 

[xTheFormlessOnedx]

Most excellent that this community encourages an evidence based practice style approach. Here is a start. I can continue to look. I also meant to have Berkeman quoted in this post. Selecting the quote function did not work.



https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4060963/

High resolution MRI anatomy of the cat brain at 3 Tesla​

"The cat model offers many advantages in the study of neurological diseases. Organization of the cat brain is similar to that of humans, with analogous regions of function and physiology, and the cat brain provides certain research advantages over the mouse brain" and "Several naturally occurring cat models of neurologic disorders are currently used in translational research to test therapeutics " and " It has been reported that the increased complexity and large size of the cat brain highlights regional effects of therapy that would likely be experienced in humans"




https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1468243/#_pon93_

Investigation of feline brain anatomy for the detection of cortical spreading depression with magnetic resonance imaging​

"The cat brain is a commonly used experimental model partly because this carnivore species has a complex gyrencephalic brain that resembles the human brain with its folded cerebral cortex." (I am also finding that dogs have this feature as well, superior to rodents as well)






https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4685590/

Neuronal factors determining high intelligence​

Estimates on neuronal cell numbers of various brains are conflicting. In fact, the very scientist responsible for Google circulating articles (from I believe a 2017 study and this is a 2016 study) that dogs have twice as many neurons as cats, is called out for inaccurate methods in this article. Methods are the culprit for conflicting reports of neuron number of various brains.

"In searching for a more direct neurobiological basis of intelligence, the number of neurons, particularly of cortical neurons as well as the effectiveness of their wiring and processing speed, comes to mind quite naturally. Brains and cortices of the same volume may contain very different numbers of neurons depending on their neuron packing density (NPD), which—among others—depends on the size of the neurons, including their dendritic trees. Processing speed depends on interneuronal distance and axonal conduction velocity, which in turn largely depend on the degree of myelination"

"Cats have much smaller brains (25 g) than dogs (74 g), but a much higher NPD, and they therefore have almost twice as many cortical neurons (300 million) as dogs (160 million)."




edit: I will always keep coming back to this point. Cats and pigs are used in anatomy labs for dissection. Dogs are not. It comes down to more overall and general similar anatomy compared to humans.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

In my experience, hunting dogs can be among the smartest of all the dog types.

 

[jrmichler]

Hunting dogs are trained to bring in dead ducks. They are supposed to stand and watch the live ones, while waiting for the hunter to shoot. That dog is just doing its job as trained.

The smart one is the duck. It cannot be shot as long as it is next to the dog.

 

[DennisN]

Dogs were expected to play assistants in mixed packs.

This is how it started:

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Hunting dogs are trained to bring in dead ducks. They are supposed to stand and watch the live ones, while waiting for the hunter to shoot. That dog is just doing its job as trained.

The smart one is the duck. It cannot be shot as long as it is next to the dog.

Okay, but I think those two are best buddies.

 

[DaveE]

hunting dogs can be among the smartest of all the dog types.

They're all smart. They can all hunt, if they want to. There is definitely some genetic variation in what they want the most and how they do it, but they all can do it. That's about 90% of the training right there, teach them to want what you want.

 

[DaveE]

Neuro and medical research on cats (dogs too) has become problematic because of public perception, PETA et.al. My undergrad roommate, later a neuro prof at a UC, worked in a lab doing plasticity research on kitten's visual cortex. That lab was discontinued for political/funding reasons. The university and funders didn't like the image of messing with kittens. Rats, mice, pigeons, and monkeys are OK; but dogs, cats, and apes are a hard sell.

 

[berkeman]

Rats, mice, pigeons, and monkeys are OK

Monkeys are also kind of marginal. My ex-wife worked on the program that sent squirrel monkeys into space on the Space Shuttle to study how they adapted to weightlessness. No surgeries or stuff like that, but there was still pushback from the animal rights community for using monkeys in experiments.

(Interesting fact -- about 50% of the monkeys experienced motion sickness [nausea/vomiting] when training on the Vomit Comet aircraft for zero-g, and in-flight in space. This number is very similar to the number for humans experiencing N/V in zero-g training and flights.)

 

[DaveE]

Later, his lab worked with Rhesus Monkey visual cortex. Security, and anonymity, was a big issue. No signs on the building, no way to just walk in and talk to someone, low profile in SM. Reminded me a tiny bit of the Lockheed DoD buildings in Silicon Valley. There are some truly crazy people out there.

Nearly everything about your medical care today you owe to someone that did things to other living creatures (or humans, maybe). Some is cringe worthy, but we need to have a balanced perspective. Lab animals are usually treated better than our food sources.

PS: those monkeys were incredibly valuable, and expensive. With literally years of research invested in each, you can only afford a few. While you might not like some of the things they did, it was all IRB approved. You don't get good data from a sick or really unhappy monkey. They were treated better than your neighbors Ferrari in many ways. Still, they lived in prison for their entire life.

 

[DaveC426913]

The answer to his question was more human like: STRUCTURE, CONNECTIONS, FOLDS. FOLDS AND CONNECTIONS IN THE BRAIN

And where is the data to support this as-yet unevidenced claim about cats brain versus dog brains?

,It is extremely remarkable how much larger a dog's relative and absolute brain mass is compared to a cat, yet a cat has very impressive capabilities due to the FOLDS, CONNECTIONS AND MORE HUMAN LIKE BRAIN STRUCTURE. As evidenced by the fact that cats are used in anatomy labs no dogs.

Nope. That's circular logic. You're assuming cats are used in anatomy labs because you assert they are similar to humans.

There are a lot of much more ... pragmatic ... reasons why cats are used in labs more than dogs. Think about factors like size, availability, cost, etc. You don't find a lot feral dogs with a brood of young'uns under the porch.

 

[berkeman]

And where is the data to support this as-yet unevidenced claim about cats brain versus dog brains?

Um, I asked for it and they supplied it in post #15 above, no?

(I know it's hard to wade through all the other side-conversations we are having in this thread. That's sort of my bad for allowing it as a Mentor, but I'm trying to walk a fine line in this thread...)

 

[Ivan Seeking]

This is how it started:

View attachment 355434

 

[hutchphd]

And where is the data to support this as-yet unevidenced claim about cats brain versus dog

Having had many cats and dogs I think we are examiining the wrong anatomy. The most telling part is the structure of the forepaws. Only the feline is capable raising the middle digit while looking you straight in the face. Indeed it is what they do best !

I do love cats.

.

 

[xTheFormlessOnedx]

And where is the data to support this as-yet unevidenced claim about cats brain versus dog brains?


Nope. That's circular logic. You're assuming cats are used in anatomy labs because you assert they are similar to humans.

There are a lot of much more ... pragmatic ... reasons why cats are used in labs more than dogs. Think about factors like size, availability, cost, etc. You don't find a lot feral dogs with a brood of young'uns under the porch.

https://dnacentre.co.uk/blog/mans-best-distant-relative-how-much-dna-do-we-share-with-dogs/

Humans share 90% of genes with cats, 84% with dogs. Does not prove anything. But what I would prefer to see on my side of this argument. See below also. I do see your point is valid that it is pragmatic and convenient to use cats. I do get the impression from the resources below, independent of feasibility, cats are excellent models of neurological research. Good supporting information on my side below.


From the Office of Research Integrity cats
https://ori.hhs.gov/education/products/ncstate/cat.htm
"They have been used extensively for neurological research, brain and vision studies as well as toxicology" and "They have been particularly important in research into epilepsy and brain area mapping." and "Cats are often the model of choice for neurological research, as well as studies on hearing, balance, movement and motor neuron research related to spinal cord injury. Due to anatomical similarities in brain structure they have been used for mapping studies." This resource does support what you stated above pertaining to being pragmatic and convenient as well.

From the Office of Research Integrity dogs
https://ori.hhs.gov/education/products/ncstate/dog.htm

There just does not seem to be a good argument that a dog's brain is as good of a model for neuro studies compared to dogs. Though some commenters have pointed out some neuro studies on them. It does seem this is more extensive for cats. But is this due to feasibility and convenience? I am not inclined to think this way.



https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7150223/

Domestic Cats as Laboratory Animals​

"In fact, cats contribute uniquely to science, and their special biological characteristics and diseases rank them as the favored species for several disciplines, including experimental neurology, some aspects of ophthalmology, ......"

 

[xTheFormlessOnedx]

Having had many cats and dogs I think we are examiining the wrong anatomy. The most telling part is the structure of the forepaws. Only the feline is capable raising the middle digit while looking you straight in the face. Indeed it is what they do best !

I do love cats.

.

I have also seen my cat pick up food with her claws/paws, and to place in mouth and eat. I have also seen her pick up meat with her claws/paws, and fling it into a Christmas tree. It was sweet. The fact about middle digit is savage!

 

[Averagesupernova]

So one of my cats seems a lot more like a dog compared to the others. Very social, always glad to see me, licks me, this kind of thing. Does that make the cat dumber or smarter?

 

[xTheFormlessOnedx]

So one of my cats seems a lot more like a dog compared to the others. Very social, always glad to see me, licks me, this kind of thing. Does that make the cat dumber or smarter?

How Pets Can Protect Cognitive Health in Older Adults​

Lol. It will slow your cognitive decline!!!!....Apparently having a dog or cat is associated with a slower rate of cognitive decline in aging adults.

I grew up with dogs. Now I have a cat. People who do not have alot of experience with cats tell me that mine seems alot like a dog.

I would say it is making your cat smarter. I would theorize that any pet is somehow utilizing neural plasticity by merely interacting with an intelligent and loving human all the time. Any cat or dog consistently engaging with a human, becomes more human like as is possible. Cats and dogs are both species that seem to have a high potential for this type of domestication. The learning and love via their humans will surely strengthen their brains over time.