Why do I think (guitar) G-strings sound out-of-tune?

[f95toli]

Does anyone else experience this?

I've played the guitar for a few years. A somewhat annoying thing is that to me, open G strings always sounds like they are somewhat out of tune. Fortunately, fretted notes sound OK, I only have this problem with the open string.
Please note that this is not a problem with my guitars; to my ears ALL guitars (maybe with the exception of classical guitars) have this problem, including ones I see demonstrated on say YouTube.
That is, the G-string is in tune (as can be verified by a tuner), but to me it sounds like it is not. Fortunately, I don't have this problem with the other strings.

Some Googling suggests that I am not the only person to experience this. One theory(?) I've seen on forums is that it has to do with whether the G string is wound or not (G strings can be plain or wound) with would suggest(?) that it has to do with the overtones generated...

Anyway, it is not a problem to be solved. I was just wondering if anyone recognizes this?

 

[pinball1970]

Does anyone else experience this?

I've played the guitar for a few years. A somewhat annoying thing is that to me, open G strings always sounds like they are somewhat out of tune. Fortunately, fretted notes sound OK, I only have this problem with the open string.
Please note that this is not a problem with my guitars; to my ears ALL guitars (maybe with the exception of classical guitars) have this problem, including ones I see demonstrated on say YouTube.
That is, the G-string is in tune (as can be verified by a tuner), but to me it sounds like it is not. Fortunately, I don't have this problem with the other strings.

Some Googling suggests that I am not the only person to experience this. One theory(?) I've seen on forums is that it has to do with whether the G string is wound or not (G strings can be plain or wound) with would suggest(?) that it has to do with the overtones generated...

Anyway, it is not a problem to be solved. I was just wondering if anyone recognizes this?

Yes, the G string is a pain. Sensitive to cold, heat and unless you have a Martin or similar the intonation is never spot on.
Not keen on B either, like they are too slack for the target notes.
D is is a pain for wear and tear, always the first to go on a classical.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I am afraid I might well comment on the "G-string" discussion with advice like "lube up your nut slot".

However...

Let;s describe "out of tune". If you tune all your strings with a tuner, presumably that works. If you then play a note up the fretboard, presumably it is out of tune. What does a tuner say? Sharp? Flat? In tune, but your ear tells you otherwise? What about the rest of the strings?

Now repeat it with a capo.

I suspect I know the problem, but I want to get the data before jumping to conclusions.

 

[Hornbein]

it has to do with whether the G string is wound or not (G strings can be plain or wound) with would suggest(?) that it has to do with the overtones generated...

That's what I think. A wound G wouldn't sound like that to you.

 

[f95toli]

Let;s describe "out of tune". If you tune all your strings with a tuner, presumably that works. If you then play a note up the fretboard, presumably it is out of tune. What does a tuner say? Sharp? Flat? In tune, but your ear tells you otherwise? What about the rest of the strings?

No. to me an open G string never sounds like it is in tune; i'd say it sounds a bit sharp even when a tuner says it is in tune.
Fretted notes are fine and in tune (both according to the tuner and my ears) and it is not a problem with intonation. Also, to me most guitars (electrical and acoustic) have this problem. I've had the exactly the same reaction to recordings/videos of people playing the guitars (fortunately, there aren't many situations where someone repeatedly plays the open G string as part of a song) so it is not a problem with my guitars or my playing.

Again, I don't think this is an actual "physical" problem bur rather psychological; for some reason my brain has decided that the sound of an open G string sounds out of tune. I don't have the same problem with other instruments, so presumably it has something to do with the spectrum of an open G string.

I know this sounds weird, but I have seen the same thing mentioned elsewhere, and I was curious if someone else has had a similar experience?

One -as far as I understand well established- somewhat similar phenomena is that many people with perfect pitch end up having their "internal reference" (or whatever one should call it) drift somewhat as they age; the result is that for them pretty much all music will eventually sound like it is out of tune, which much be horrible.

psychoacoustics is weird....

 

[symbolipoint]

f95toli,
Forget about all the acoustical tuning measurement tools. What you hear is what is important.
If you know how to tune your guitar then you would often use harmonics for strings 6, 5, 4, and 3; but then from 3 to 2 you would want to use fourth fret on string 3 and compare to open string 2; and then you use harmonics again between string 2 and 1. From here, you know how the six open strings played together should sound; so adjust as necessary. Also choose two or three common cords, play, and adjust as necessary. With some effort you should have the adjustments so that all the strings sound in-tune.

 

[f95toli]

f95toli,
Forget about all the acoustical tuning measurement tools. What you hear is what is important.

That is what I am saying According to my hearing (or rather my brain) the G-string is always slightly out of tune irrespective of what I do. It is NOT a problem with the way I tune my guitar; if that was the problem then the fretted notes on the G-string would also sound like they are out of tune and they are not. Hence, tuning with harmonics wouldn't solve anything.
Also, I "hear" exactly the same problem with most other guitars and presumably the people who tuned those DO think they are in tune.
I am pretty confident that this is not an "objective" problem, it is my brain that is interpreting the sound of an open G string*

Again, I don't this is a problem that can be "solved". My reason for posting this was just that I was curious to see if someone else has experienced something similar.

*For those not familiar with guitars: there are always several ways to play the same note on a guitar and they all do sound somewhat differently, the open strings (=strings played without fretting a note on the fingerboard) do sound different from fretted notes (even thought the fundamental pitch is the same)

 

[Vanadium 50]

I am 90% sure that the "problem" is because the harmonics of yoyr G string are not exactly where they would be for a massless, one-dimensional string. A spaectrum analyzer will show this. Pianos have this issue.

 

[pinball1970]

psychoacoustics is weird....

It's a bit off topic here but there is a paper on this I will post it.

 

[pinball1970]

I am pretty confident that this is not an "objective" problem, it is my brain that is interpreting the sound of an open G string*

It drones, it is the only way I can describe it. My mate has a Taylor, expensive, lovely instrument, really bright tone and I can still hear it. Some of that must because I half expect it.

Best to rule out intonation though, if the strings are in with each other on the 5th but are out on the octaves then either the guitar is cheap or not set right.

I would also always recommend tuning to ear not an electronic tuner, that way you train your brain. Then you develop relative pitch and recognise issues and how to address them, including that confounded G!

 

[DennisN]

I was just wondering if anyone recognizes this?

I don't, not with individual guitar strings.

But I used to have a short scale bass which I always thought sounded out of tune .
I thought it was the pickups interfering with the strings, i.e. that the pickups was too close to the strings, so I tried lowering the pickups, but it still sounded strange.
Never understood why, it could have been my ears rather than the bass, I don't know.
It wasn't a particularly good bass, I've got a better one nowadays (an Ibanez TMB30-IV (short scale), pretty cheap, but lovely to play on).

I would also always recommend tuning to ear not an electronic tuner

And if you tune an electric guitar you could check out how to tune using harmonics (if you don't already know how to). An example video is here (I haven't watched the entire video, I just picked one on youtube that seemed good).

You can tune acoustic guitars using harmonics too, but it is a bit more tricky, since the volume tends to get pretty low. A remedy for this is to move the head and ears closer to the string.

 

[symbolipoint]

You can tune acoustic guitars using harmonics too, but it is a bit more tricky, since the volume tend to get pretty low. A remedy for this is to move the head and ears closer to the string.

Either a hearing-loss problem, or being in the presence of a noisy audience -

 

[f95toli]

I am 90% sure that the "problem" is because the harmonics of yoyr G string are not exactly where they would be for a massless, one-dimensional string. A spaectrum analyzer will show this. Pianos have this issue.

Yes, I think that sounds like a likely explanation; it would also explain why it is not a problem for fretted notes where the string is more damped. It is a bit curious that it only happen with the G-string, but as pointed out above it is known to be a "problematic" string on most guitars.

 

[Vanadium 50]

it would also explain why it is not a problem for fretted notes where the string is more damped.

This is partly why I wanted more details on when this happens/doesn't happen/is worst.

As to "why G?"

1. One string has to be worst. There was a 16.67% chance it was this one.
2. We can make "G string" jokes.
3. It's one of the two longest strings in most guitars, and there is a large angle between peg and fretboard.
4. G-string jokes anyone?
5. It probably affects all strings, to different degrees. Because of the interaction between harmonics and temperment, which string is worst may depend on the key you are in. It may well be that D sounds worse. Try something in flat keys.

 

[sbrothy]

I realize this is an old thread but just the same:

This may sound farfetched (I play the guitar myself and am generally told I'm pretty good at it *toot toot*). I'm assuming you know how to check if your guitar is "fret fake" / "tape fake" / "guitar forged" (? these are the translations google translate offered me, sorry).

Without access to a spectrum analyzer you basically check the harmonics at the 12th band and then compare to the actual tone when pressing the string at the same band to check. They should sound the same. As the G string is the "middle" nylon string there could be a discrepancy there. Especially if the guitar was carried haphazardly for a prolonged time.

Yes, I know how far out this sounds but if I really had to guess this might be worth a try.

 

[symbolipoint]

This may sound farfetched (I play the guitar myself and am generally told I'm pretty good at it *toot toot*). I'm assuming you know how to check if your guitar is "fret fake" / "tape fake" / "guitar forged" (? these are the translations google translate offered me, sorry).

Not sure what that is. Not sure what you mean, but you tried.

Without access to a spectrum analyzer you basically check the harmonics at the 12th band and then compare to the actual tone when pressing the string at the same band to check. They should sound the same. As the G string is the "middle" nylon string there could be a discrepancy there. Especially if the guitar was carried haphazardly for a prolonged time.

Did that mean "spectrum analyzer" like a measurement instrument to read sound waves or sound wavelengths?

G string is not really "middle" string, if on six-string guitar. G string usually called, 'string number three'.

My guess is you want the word "fret" instead of "band". I believe you are trying to discuss exact placement of each fret. Yes, I imagine if fret 12 is not perfectly placed, then pressed and open will not sound the unison(?) apart. I have no idea if this is adjustable after constructing the instrument.

 

[sbrothy]

You noticed that I put middle in quotes right? I may not be the smartest person here but having a guitar in hand everyday I’m Well aware it has no middle string. It has TWO middle strings though. G happens to be one of them.

 

[sbrothy]

What I mean by fake is than when the arm of a guitar is bend is goes, for want of a better term, “fretfake”. I’ll see if I can Hunt down the proper term. That post was written late.

 

[symbolipoint]

You noticed that I put middle in quotes right? I may not be the smartest person here but having a guitar in hand everyday I’m Well aware it has no middle string. It has TWO middle strings though. G happens to be one of them.

No. I did not notice upon first reading; yet one will recognize in exactness that a six-string instrument as guitar has no middle string. Not everyone tries to take string number three and number four as middle string. Too common for most people to recognize no single string on there is a middle string.

An expected guitar with a true middle string would be a seven-string guitar, these which do exist.

 

[sbrothy]

Ok I’ve tried to look up the proper terms but I still can’t a proper translation of the Danish word for “båndfalsk”. Maybe some Danish-American on here may be of help (I’m really optimistic regarding my chances, heh. :) ).

Anyway, I looked up the proper terms and I can try to explain what I mean. If for nothing else then to show I’m not some retarded simpleton.

Looking at this picture of a guitar’s anatomy, what I mean is that if the neck is bend either way obviously playing any tone by pressing the fingerboard between two frets will sound out of tune proportional to the angle of the bend.

The way to check for this (assuming the angle isn’t visible of course) is to compare each tone between the 12th and 13th fret (E obviously on the 1st and 6th string) to it’s corresponding harmonic above the 12th fret.

If they are out of tune it’s “båndfalsk” (literally: “fretfake”) meaning the neck is bent.

Do I make any sense at all?

 

[symbolipoint]

Anyway, I looked up the proper terms and I can try to explain what I mean. If for nothing else then to show I’m not some retarded simpleton.

Looking at this picture of a guitar’s anatomy, what I

..

If they are out of tune it’s “båndfalsk” (literally: “fretfake”) meaning the neck is bent.

Do I make any sense at all?

(The quoting did not work properly.)

As shown of the bolded part in the quote, I did not say that you were.

You appear to be trying to describe a warped neck. "Bent" might be a way to convey the meaning but "bent" might imply the bending is with an angle.

 

[sbrothy]

..

(The quoting did not work properly.)

As shown of the bolded part in the quote, I did not say that you were.

You appear to be trying to describe a warped neck. "Bent" might be a way to convey the meaning but "bent" might imply the bending is with an angle.

Don’t worry about the personal aspect. I have a tendency to exaggerate my hurt pride and whatnot, taking cheap shots at myself for fun and profit(?).

“Warped neck”! That might be as close as I get to “båndfalsk” I suspect. As good as it gets. :)

But at least you understand what I was trying to convey right?

Heh, and this thread has 1000+ views!
:P

 

[symbolipoint]

To explain more about post #6,
Part of the way to use harmonics is to listen to the beating effect while the two strings are giving their sounds. Turn whichever peg or key just enough to make the beating effect slower or eliminated. This is not so easy for tuning between string number 3 and string number 2.

 

[symbolipoint]

I found this but it does not help me to understand anything:

 

[DennisN]

Anyway, I looked up the proper terms and I can try to explain what I mean. If for nothing else then to show I’m not some retarded simpleton.

Looking at this picture of a guitar’s anatomy, what I mean is that if the neck is bend either way obviously playing any tone by pressing the fingerboard between two frets will sound out of tune proportional to the angle of the bend.

It seems you are referring to "bent necks", and I think the common English terms are forward bow and backwards bow etc., see this image:

Source: this video

This is fixed by adjusting the truss rod (if the guitar has one).

Source: How to adjust your truss rod

More info:

• How To Set Up Your Electric Guitar Part 1: Adjusting the Truss Rod (Sweetwater)
• Truss rod adjustments (Taylor Guitars)

and a video from Taylor Guitars:

Truss Rod Adjustment

 

[sbrothy]

I misspoke. That’s as good as it gets!

EDIT: I’s not even a suspicion anymore. :)

 

[symbolipoint]

"Truss Rod" - some of us forget about those. This is not on our minds if we have too little involvement with the kind of guitar with them.