Why does my general solution for a double pendulum have three unknowns?

In summary, the general solution for a double pendulum involves three unknowns due to the system's complexity and the need to account for the positions and velocities of both pendulums. Each pendulum's angle and angular velocity contribute to the overall state of the system, leading to the necessity of three variables to fully describe the motion and interactions of the double pendulum. This complexity arises from the non-linear dynamics and the constraints imposed by the coupling of the two pendulums.
  • #1
zenterix
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Homework Statement
This question is about some calculations I saw in a video lecture about coupled oscillators.
Relevant Equations
In particular, there is the derivation of the solutions to the problem of the double pendulum.

It seems to me the derivation ends up with three unknown parameters to be determined by initial conditions. Shouldn't it be four?
For the record, here is the lecture I am speaking of.

Consider a double pendulum.

1722983745368.png


I'm going to skip the setup of the problem and jump to the system of differential equations

$$m\ddot{x}_1=-\frac{3g}{l}x_1+\frac{g}{l}x_2\tag{1}$$

$$m\ddot{x}_2=\frac{g}{l}x_1-\frac{g}{l}x_2\tag{2}$$

where ##\omega_0^2=\frac{g}{l}##.

The lecturer then says that any normal mode solution will have to have the form

$$x_1=A_1\cos{(\omega t+\phi_1)}\tag{3}$$

$$x_2=A_2\cos{(\omega t+\phi_2)}\tag{4}$$

We plug these into the system and we reach

$$A_1(\omega^2-3\omega_0^2)+A_2\omega_0^2=0\tag{5}$$

$$A_1\omega_0^2+A_2(\omega^2-\omega_0^2)=0\tag{6}$$

The only way this has a non-zero solution for ##A_1## and ##A_2## is if the system matrix has a zero determinant.

Given ##\omega_0##, this happens for two positive values of ##\omega##. Let's call them ##\omega_A## and ##\omega_B## (I won't post the actual values because it isn't important for my question I think).

For each of these these angular frequencies, the system represented by (5) and (6) is singular: there is only one equation. We can only determine the ratio ##A_1/A_2=r##.

The normal mode solutions are then

$$x_1=r_1A_2\cos{(\omega_A t+\phi_1)}\tag{s1}$$

$$x_2=A_2\cos{(\omega_A t+\phi_2)}\tag{s1}$$

and

$$x_1=r_2A_2\cos{(\omega_B t+\phi_1)}\tag{s2}$$

$$x_2=A_2\cos{(\omega_B t+\phi_2)}\tag{s2}$$

The general solution seems to be the sum of these solutions.

My question is about the number of unknown parameters to be determined by initial conditions.

As far as I can tell we have ##A_2, \phi_1,## and ##\phi_2##.

Shouldn't there be four?
 
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  • #2
Okay, so I think the answer to my question is that actually ##A_2## is distinct for each of the normal modes. I noticed this just after posting.

The normal mode solutions are then

$$x_1=r_1A_{2,1}\cos{(\omega_A t+\phi_1)}\tag{s1}$$

$$x_2=A_{2,1}\cos{(\omega_A t+\phi_2)}\tag{s1}$$

and

$$x_1=r_2A_{2,2}\cos{(\omega_B t+\phi_1)}\tag{s2}$$

$$x_2=A_{2,2}\cos{(\omega_B t+\phi_2)}\tag{s2}$$

So the unknown parameters are actually ##A_{2,1}, A_{2,2}, \phi_1,## and ##\phi_2##.
 
  • #3
zenterix said:
The normal mode solutions are then$$x_1=r_1A_{2,1}\cos{(\omega_A t+\phi_1)}\tag{s1}$$ $$x_2=A_{2,1}\cos{(\omega_A t+\phi_2)}\tag{s1}$$
For a normal mode, the phase constant ##\phi## is the same for ##x_1## and ##x_2##. See your video link at time 37:35. So, for the first normal mode (mode ##A##), let ##\phi_A## be the common phase constant of ##x_1## and ##x_2##. For the second mode (mode ##B##), let ##\phi_B## be the phase constant. Thus, for mode ##A##

$$x_1=r_1A_2\cos{(\omega_A t+\phi_A)}\tag{s1}$$ $$x_2=A_2\cos{(\omega_A t+\phi_A)}\tag{s1}.$$ For mode ##B##, $$x_1=r_1B_2\cos{(\omega_B t+\phi_B)}\tag{s1}$$ $$x_2=B_2\cos{(\omega_B t+\phi_B)}\tag{s1}.$$
What are the four parameters that are determined by the initial conditions?
 
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FAQ: Why does my general solution for a double pendulum have three unknowns?

Why does my general solution for a double pendulum have three unknowns?

The general solution for a double pendulum typically involves three unknowns because it consists of two angles (the angles of each pendulum relative to the vertical) and one additional parameter, which could be the length of the pendulums, their masses, or initial conditions such as initial velocities or positions. This is necessary to fully describe the state of the system.

What are the three unknowns in the double pendulum system?

The three unknowns in a double pendulum system usually include the two angular positions (θ1 and θ2) of each pendulum and one additional parameter, which might be the angular velocities (ω1 and ω2) or initial conditions. These parameters are essential for solving the equations of motion and predicting the behavior of the pendulum over time.

How do I determine the values of the unknowns in my solution?

To determine the values of the unknowns in your solution, you need to apply initial conditions based on the physical setup of your experiment or simulation. This includes the initial angles of the pendulums and their initial velocities. By substituting these values into your equations of motion, you can solve for the unknowns.

Why are there more unknowns than equations for the double pendulum?

In a double pendulum, the system is inherently nonlinear and chaotic, which can lead to a situation where the number of unknowns exceeds the number of independent equations derived from the system's dynamics. This is often due to the complexity of the interactions between the two pendulums, requiring careful consideration of initial conditions and constraints to fully define the system.

Can the number of unknowns change with different configurations of the double pendulum?

Yes, the number of unknowns can change with different configurations of the double pendulum. For example, if you include additional parameters such as external forces, damping, or constraints, you may introduce more unknowns into the system. Conversely, if you simplify the system by fixing certain parameters, you may reduce the number of unknowns.

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