Why does the Earth move around the sun?

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In summary, the conversation discusses the idea of the center of mass as the only viewpoint that provides the truth, while also considering the possibility of the sun being immovable and having zero mass. The conversation also touches on the concept of inertia and how it relates to force and mass. There is disagreement over whether the sun is truly immovable and whether its mass is zero, with one participant suggesting that the sun's wobbling motion due to the pull of other planets disproves its immovability. Overall, the conversation highlights the complexity and nuances of Newton's laws of motion and gravity.
  • #1
deda
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I say the only viewpoint available that provides us with the truth is the center of mass. You go ahead be my guest and choose another but be ware: Your physics will not remain the same. Let's fix the coordinate system on the sun and watch the Earth moving. The sun is truly immovable thus has no force on it because of Newton 2. Because of Newton’s gravity sun’s mass is also zero but also and earth’s force will be zero. So how can Earth move relatively to the sun? It will probably dilate time and contract space in order to move!

I'm off to Bermuda!
 
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  • #2
The centre of mass is not a view point. How do you know the sun isn't moving? In another thread you say it is. The sun has zero mass? Bermuda? The triangle, try not to get lost, please.
 
  • #3
If the system is fixed on the sun then the sun in this system is immovable.
If the sun is immovable or has constant velocity due to Newton 1 it is subjected to no force.
If the sun is subjected to no force then due to Newton's gravity the sun has zero mass.
If the sun is subjected to zero force and Newton 3 then the Earth is also subjected to zero force.
If the Earth is subjected to zero force then its velocity is constant or zero.

In few words we get totally different physics.
 
  • #4
The system being fixed on the sun and the sun not moving are, if one assigns meaning to the words that are ambiguous, contradictory statements (the orbits are elliptic).

How do you know the sun is not moving, or moving with no acceleration? In what larger iniertial frame is this observation taking place? Why are you ignoring the other planets in the system?
 
  • #5
deda said:
In few words we get totally different physics.

Many of those few words are "if," and if you can't get past the first statement you have a hard time implying the rest of them :smile:
 
  • #6
deda said:
If the system is fixed on the sun then the sun in this system is immovable.
If the sun is immovable or has constant velocity due to Newton 1 it is subjected to no force.
If the sun is subjected to no force then due to Newton's gravity the sun has zero mass.
If the sun is subjected to zero force and Newton 3 then the Earth is also subjected to zero force.
If the Earth is subjected to zero force then its velocity is constant or zero.

In few words we get totally different physics.

So many errors, so little time!

I'll just straighten you out on this one: "If the sun is subjected to no force then due to Newton's gravity the sun has zero mass."

You need to review the equation for "Newton's gravity" (or maybe 8th grade math). There are two masses in the equation. Only one of them (not necessarily the sun's) needs to be zero for there to be "no force".
 
  • #7
How lost am I? That is one of the stangest things I've ever heard. Just because something is not subjected to a "NET" force (notice what I did there with the quotes and capitalizing it?) doesn't mean it has no mass. I am not being subjected to a net force right now (meaning that I am sitting in my chair and not moving, at least my center of gravity is not moving), if I was being subjected to a force I would accelerate. OK so I am not being subjected to a net force (just really bad reasoning) but this in no way means I have no mass. I have mass (a little too much mass actually but such is life in a cube), I can tell by the fact that my fingers actually come in contact with the keys of my keyboard (even though it is mostly e/m fields that are keeping my fingers from going through the keyboard, they would not be there if I had no electrons).

Here is most of the misconception: misinterpreting the math without understanding what is going on. Equating Newton's formula for gravitational force with his laws of motion without a clear understanding of what they mean is ... meaningless. Sorry but you should probably take a look at a beginning text in Physics.
 
  • #8
jdavel said:
You need to review the equation for "Newton's gravity" (or maybe 8th grade math). There are two masses in the equation. Only one of them (not necessarily the sun's) needs to be zero for there to be "no force".
Then the Earth is the one with the zero mass and you can eat my shorts!
 
  • #9
Sorry forgot something
By the way, the sun is not fixed in space, it wobbles because of the pull from the planets.
 

Related to Why does the Earth move around the sun?

What is an invariant?

An invariant is a condition or property that remains unchanged throughout a particular process or system. It is often used in scientific research and mathematics to describe a characteristic that remains constant regardless of any changes or variables.

Why is invariance important in science?

Invariance is important in science because it allows for the identification of fundamental laws and principles that govern a particular system or phenomenon. By identifying invariants, scientists can better understand and predict the behavior of a system and make more accurate conclusions about their research.

How do scientists identify invariants?

Scientists identify invariants by conducting experiments and observations, analyzing data, and using mathematical models. By observing patterns and trends, scientists can identify characteristics that remain constant and use them to develop theories and make predictions.

What are some examples of invariance in science?

Some examples of invariance in science include the conservation of energy, the laws of thermodynamics, and the principle of relativity. These principles remain constant regardless of any changes in the environment or variables involved.

What role does invariance play in scientific theories?

Invariance is a crucial component of scientific theories as it provides a foundation for understanding and predicting the behavior of a system. By identifying invariants, scientists can develop theories that accurately describe and explain a particular phenomenon or process.

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