Why Don't I Pick Up Paper in Public Toilets?

[Jimmy Snyder]

Just for the record, when I see a piece of paper on the floor in a public toilet, I don't pick it up.

 

[RetardedBastard]

I don't even like it when the soles of my shoes touch a public bathroom floor.

 

[Evo]

I don't know what the point of this is, but it's not politics. Moving to GD.

 

[RetardedBastard]

I don't know what the point of this is

Ummm, that is PRECISELY why it is, err was, in politics :)

 

[Math Is Hard]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/08/28/craig.arrest/index.html

When the police interviewed him later, the senator said that "he has a wide stance when going to the bathroom" and that was why his foot may have touched the officer's, the report said.

Craig also told police that he had reached down to the floor to pick up a piece of paper, the officer wrote.

"It should be noted that there was not a piece of paper on the bathroom floor, nor did Craig pick up a piece of paper," Karsnia wrote.

 

[Gokul43201]

I recently read a transcription of the entire conversation between Craig and the officer during the arrest. It's a no brainer, once you read that. Looking for it now...

Here it is: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,295329,00.html

The final exchanges:

OFFICER: I just, I just. I guess, I guess I'm going to say I'm just disappointed in you sir. I'm just really am. I expect this from the guy that we get out of the hood. I mean people vote for you.

CRAIG: Yes, they do.

OFFICER: Unbelievable, unbelievable.

CRAIG: I'm a respectable person and I don't do these kinds of...

OFFICER: and INAUDIBLE respect right now though.

CRAIG: But I didn't use my left hand.

OFFICER: I thought that you...

CRAIG: I reached down with my right hand like this to pick up a piece of paper.

OFFICER: Was your gold ring on your right hand at anytime today?

CRAIG: Of course not, try to get it off, look at it.

OFFICER: Okay. Then it was your left hand. I saw it with my own eyes.

CRAIG: All right, you saw something that didn't happen.

OFFICER: Embarrassing, embarrassing. No wonder why we're going down the tubes. Anything to add?

DETECTIVE: Uh, no.

OFFICER:Embarrassing. Date is 6/11/07 at 1236 interview is done.

CRAIG: Okay.

 

[Astronuc]

I recently read a transcription of the entire conversation between Craig and the officer during the arrest.

That's one conversation I don't want to read.

 

[hypatia]

Just ewwwwwwwwwww!

 

[chemisttree]

If you don't want to read it, Olberman is playing a great dramatization...

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/08/29/olbermann-re-enacts-senator-craig-bathroom-scene/

I feel soooo bad for his wife. What was the crime again? Tapping his toe and waving his hand under the partition? I'll have to watch out for that one and report any suspicious behaviour to law enforcement. I'm never speaking, making eye contact or acknowledging anyone in an airport anymore...

 

[Gokul43201]

What was the crime again? Tapping his toe and waving his hand under the partition?

Yeah, why would you even bother refuting a harmless claim like that?

But wait... in Craig's own words, he's a respectable person and he doesn't do things like tapping toes and waving hands under partitions.

My own opinion on the matter is that it's silly to arrest someone for soliciting consensual sex. It's Craig's hypocrisy that stinks the whole thing up.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

The funny thing is, I thought if I put it in GD, it would get moved to political. Oh well, somedays you eat the bear, and somedays the bear eats you.

 

[chemisttree]

Yeah, why would you even bother refuting a harmless claim like that?

But wait... in Craig's own words, he's a respectable person and he doesn't do things like tapping toes and waving hands under partitions.

He admitted to doing just that, in his own words.
I always thought that one had to verbalize something to solicit sex. Secret signals like toe tapping and hand waving sound kind of innocous to me. What if he had actually spoken to him and asked something like, "What's your sign?" Or, "What is the average air speed of an unladen swallow?" (European or African?) Oh wait, it wasn't solicitation that he was charged with it was disorderly conduct. Perhaps reaching into someone else's stall is considered disorderly. I wouldn't disagree.

 

[edward]

I'm never speaking, making eye contact or acknowledging anyone in an airport anymore...

Then Airport security and the TSA will become suspicious and do a full body cavity search.

 

[BobG]

... it was disorderly conduct. Perhaps reaching into someone else's stall is considered disorderly. I wouldn't disagree.

I'd tend to agree. That would be pretty obnoxious and unsettling. If he's arrested of a crime and pleads guilty, he pretty much has to go (but not always - voters often don't care all that much about sex scandals).

The only difference between the current times and the old days is in how those around him act. http://home.nyc.rr.com/alweisel/outwalterjenkins.htm . (The scandal centered around Johnson's key aide, not on Johnson, but it was in the middle of the 1964 Presidential campaign.)

 

[Gokul43201]

Secret signals like toe tapping and hand waving sound kind of innocous to me.

I'm guessing they mean a lot more to cops that may have seen these exact signals on numerous previous solicitations.

http://www.startribune.com/587/story/1386023.html

According to police reports, Craig kept watching the undercover police officer through a crack in the bathroom stall, Roll Call reported. Craig then entered the next-door stall and placed his luggage against the opening under the stall door.

"My experience has shown that individuals engaging in lewd conduct use their bags to block the view from the front of their stall," said the officer, Sgt. Dave Karsnia.

The report continued: "At 1216 hours, Craig tapped his right foot. I recognized this as a signal used by persons wishing to engage in lewd conduct. Craig tapped his toes several times and moves his foot closer to my foot. ... The presence of others did not seem to deter Craig as he moved his right foot so that it touched the side of my left foot which was within my stall area."

The report said that Craig swiped his hand beneath the stall divider several times and that Karsnia showed his police identification under the stall.

That's five signals. Do you really have doubts that Craig was soliciting? Or are you just questioning whether there is sufficient evidence to to book him for solicitation? In any case - as you pointed out - he was booked for disorderly conduct (whatever the hell that means).

What if he had actually spoken to him and asked something like, "What's your sign?" Or, "What is the average air speed of an unladen swallow?" (European or African?)

I guess if he was actually trotting around behind a dude making clicking sounds, he could have used an insanity defense.

 

[Evo]

The funny thing is, I thought if I put it in GD, it would get moved to political. Oh well, somedays you eat the bear, and somedays the bear eats you.

You failed to follow the guidelines which is to clearly state the issue in your post.

 

[chemisttree]

That's five signals. Do you really have doubts that Craig was soliciting? Or are you just questioning whether there is sufficient evidence to to book him for solicitation? In any case - as you pointed out - he was booked for disorderly conduct (whatever the hell that means).

I have no doubt what he was up to, after all he didn't flush. I'm just amazed that a policeman bothered to mirandize the perp for tapping his foot and waving his hand. Just what am I to do with my carry on bag when I'm in the crapper? Hold it over my head? The placement is obvious. The policeman could have just as easily said that he had seen mad bombers do the same thing and the 'evidence' would have been just as non-sequitur. Who doesn't put their bag against the door when they're on the can. Most of the doors won't lock anyway!

"You have the right to remain silent. Any stupid lies you tell me can be used against you in the press..."

Definitely disorderly conduct! He should keep his dirty hands in his own space! You don't know where that's been...

 

[chroot]

Apparently these signals are widely understood in the subculture of gay men who solicit anonymous sex in public bathrooms. Of course they seem silly and innocuous to people who are unfamiliar with them -- they are a disguise born of necessity.

Don't forget that the undercover cop was responding to reports of sexual activity in the bathroom -- it wasn't happenstance. Perhaps Craig's signals were not lost on the other people who used the bathroom.

Either way, he was only charged with a pretty silly misdemeanor. It's not like he's going to do hard time for tapping someone's foot in a bathroom. On the other hand, he probably will be laughed out of office. Considering the attitudes he promulgated while in office, it seems a fitting end to me.

- Warren

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Although there's poetic justice that he got caught in a web that he advocated for, I don't think the toilet squad is a good idea. This whole sordid affair shows what happens when the letter of the law is enforced without resort to reason or mercy by robotic functionaries.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

The real problem is that he pled guilty. That pretty much does it - conduct unbecoming a Senator and convicted of a crime. And if he tries to reverse the plea, he is then guilty of perjury.

What got me was the bit about seeing his blue eyes peering through the crack in the door jam. Creepy...

He's already gone. CNN reports that he will announce his resignation soon.

Earlier, CNN was showing clips from an old scandal involving a dem who hired a male prostitute. Everyone on the Sen committee voted for a minor reprimand, except for Craig who was so morally outraged that he voted for a full censure.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

For context, how is this any different than hanging out around the exit of women's restroom and soliticing everyone who goes in?

I certainly do see a problem here. At the least, go to a bar.

 

[Gokul43201]

I have no doubt what he was up to, after all he didn't flush.

I'm just amazed that a policeman bothered to mirandize the perp for tapping his foot and waving his hand.

The other weird thing about that - and this may be because we don't have a complete transcript - is that Craig was never once told what he was being charged with. I think some of the early exchanges were not recorded, like the bit where Craig hands over his US Senator business card when asked to show his driver's license.

The part I liked best was him telling the cop "you solicited me".

 

[turbo]

The part I liked best was him telling the cop "you solicited me".

OK, so there was clear solicitation, but Craig wasn't involved. This bathroom was apparently under surveillance as a gay hot-spot, and Craig was unaware of this and tried to lure another male into his stall (presumably to discuss the "Surge" or some other pressing Republican issue). Catch a clue.

 

[Gokul43201]

OK, so there was clear solicitation, but Craig wasn't involved. This bathroom was apparently under surveillance as a gay hot-spot, and Craig was unaware of this and tried to lure another male into his stall (presumably to discuss the "Surge" or some other pressing Republican issue). Catch a clue.

Of course! Being a good Republican, he would never advocate pulling out.

 

[turbo]

Of course! Being a good Republican, he would never advocate pulling out.

No! Stay in and get job done with a surge, if possible.

 

[drankin]

As far as his initial excuse:

Think about it, if you have just sat down and dropped your drawers, you can't have a wide stance unless you have spandex on, maybe. He was sitting on the can with his pants up trolling for action. He's done.

 

[chroot]

Of course! Being a good Republican, he would never advocate pulling out.

No! Stay in and get job done with a surge, if possible.

This is terrible, this joke.

- Warren

 

[Moonbear]

Okay, I DO understand the problem with the hypocrisy and attempted cover-up, but what I don't understand is what crime, exactly, was committed here? Granted, a men's room seems like a strange place to pick up your dates, but unless the act is then committed in public (i.e., public lewdness charge) or money exchanges hands (i.e., prostitution), what is illegal about what he did? While all those signals may mean something to someone, they still are pretty circumstantial. And, some of those so-called "signals" seem pretty commonplace. Putting your luggage by the stall door? I do that every time I'm in an airport restroom. Where are you supposed to put your luggage other than that? There usually isn't enough room, and propping it all against the door is about as far out of the way as you're going to get it. Tapping a foot? Okay, we all know what it is men need to do when they enter a stall...is it inconceivable that one would tap their foot while sitting staring at the wall of a stall without their needed magazine or newspaper? As for feet touching...where exactly were the cop's feet? Did he read the toe-tapping as a signal and then move HIS foot toward the stall divider? Really, who bumped whom? The only one of those "signals" that is difficult to explain away as casual coincidence is the hand under the divider. The cop didn't exactly sound unbiased in that transcript.

Nonetheless, even if ALL those signals were intentional and meant, "Do you want sex with me?" where is the harm or crime there? If someone is unaware of the signals or their intent, they would disregard them. If "soliciting sex" is a crime unto itself, then they better start cracking down on everyone in bars at closing time (as Ivan hinted at already).

 

[Gokul43201]

He wasn't booked for soliciting sex (which he clearly was); he was booked for disorderly conduct. I think doing things like staring into another person's stall, sliding your foot under the partition and making repeated hand gestures under the partition count as violating the other person's privacy.

 

[drankin]

I agree. He's a freak. If someone harassed me while I was in the can, I'd be a bit upset. Certainly should be a criminal offense of some kind.

 

[Astronuc]

And Craig has announced his resignation effective at the end of the month.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070901/ap_on_go_co/craig_arrest

BOISE, Idaho - Idaho Sen. Larry Craig resigned Saturday over a men's room sex sting, bowing to pressure from fellow Republicans worried about a scandal dimming their election prospects.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/09/01/craig.arrest/index.html

 

[Gokul43201]

Flashback:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0_Vs5570pKw&mode=related&search=And the audio file from the police interview:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=xWjXedX7pLA&mode=user&search=

 

[Moonbear]

I agree. He's a freak. If someone harassed me while I was in the can, I'd be a bit upset. Certainly should be a criminal offense of some kind.

How was it harrassment? The cop had to have been playing along, giving the impression the advances were welcomed. Let's put it this way...you're in a bathroom stall, and if you haven't noticed anything before then and were coincidentally toe-tapping right along with the guy next to you, then the guy next to you is suddenly bumping your foot with his foot (you'd still have to have your foot pretty close to the divider too for that to even work)...what would you do? You'd move your foot away. He'd know you weren't interested or didn't know what was going on, and game over. If your feet touch and you don't move away, that signals acceptance of that contact. Let's not forget that it was also probably pretty apparent from a glance at ankles that the cop sitting in the stall didn't have his pants down either, so it was a good bet that was the person to try to initiate contact with.

Like I said above, if he was engaging in the sex act itself in the mens' room, or soliciting a paid prostitute and money exchanged hands, I would understand the illegality of it, but to arrest him because of some vague signals that would mean nothing to the average passer-by?

The other thing that struck me amidst all the news about this story is...why are we wasting taxpayer money to have cops sitting in a mens' room all day trying to catch men who are just desperate for sex? Having a minimum wage employee as a bathroom attendant would be just as effective at deterring anyone from lingering, or just have the janitor clean that restroom more frequently to have more of a presence that would make it unsuitable for lingering.

The only fitting irony is that this is the party that is continuously trying to pass the legislation that forces people to stay in the closet and seek to hook-up in such clandestine ways.

 

[Gokul43201]

The other thing that struck me amidst all the news about this story is...why are we wasting taxpayer money to have cops sitting in a mens' room all day trying to catch men who are just desperate for sex?

But it's gay sex! Surely, every penny we can pour into defending ourselves from it is worth it.

 

[BobG]

And Craig has announced his resignation effective at the end of the month.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070901/ap_on_go_co/craig_arrest


http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/09/01/craig.arrest/index.html

Wait! He's not going away quite so fast: Idaho Republican may fight to keep Senate seat, reverse guilty plea.

His lawyer has a point about non-job related misdemeanors. I think he overlooks one point.

A Congressman personally opposed to homosexuality could support efforts for gay marriages, but a gay Congressman can't support anti-gay legislation. It would be as hard as a Congressman getting an abortion while leading the effort to ban abortion. One direction is being fair-minded and open to other's beliefs. The other direction is hypocrisy. It's an argument that's only effective in one direction.

That might still be a decision better left to voters come election time. It might turn out to be a low priority item among voters.