Wisconsin labor protests it's like Cairo has moved to Madison these days

[Greg Bernhardt]

wisconsin labor protests "it's like Cairo has moved to Madison these days"

Not sure if people have been aware of this situation, but it's getting a bit crazy here and I'd like outside opinions on it. All my friends/family are fiercely divided on this issue and things are heating up! We had 20k+ people at the capitol yesterday. Many schools closing today due to teachers leaving to protest.

Details of the matter are in this link
http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/02/17/wisconsin.budget/index.html?hpt=T2
http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/116381289.html


Personally I don't have a problem with the benefit/wage cuts, but Walker is moving to strip collective bargaining from the labor union. Isn't that protected under the Freedom of Association?

WI Rep says "...it's like Cairo has moved to Madison these days."

 

[Al68]

Personally I don't have a problem with the benefit/wage cuts, but Walker is moving to strip collective bargaining from the labor union. Isn't that protected under the Freedom of Association?

Yes, and every free citizen has the right to withhold his labor for any reason he sees fit, including as collective leverage to negotiate wages. That's true whether a member of a union or not.

But Freedom of Association works both ways: employees are free to associate with employers and each other or not as they see fit, and so are employers.

In this case, like many others, union leaders are using the phrase "collective bargaining" to refer to current union benefits above and beyond what the words "collective bargaining" actually mean, such as a restriction on the ability of the state to hire replacements, etc.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

In this case, like many others, union leaders are using the phrase "collective bargaining" to refer to current union benefits above and beyond what the words "collective bargaining" actually mean, such as a restriction on the ability of the state to hire replacements, etc.

Wiki says "Collective agreements usually set out wage scales, working hours, training, health and safety, overtime, grievance mechanisms and rights to participate in workplace or company affairs."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_bargaining

 

[Al68]

Wiki says "Collective agreements usually set out wage scales, working hours, training, health and safety, overtime, grievance mechanisms and rights to participate in workplace or company affairs."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_bargaining

Yes, exactly. Far more than the phrase "collective bargaining" generically means. And failure of an employer to agree to employee demands does not constitute violating their right to collectively negotiate for them. Neither would a refusal of an employer to negotiate at all.

I have the right to negotiate for a lower price at a car lot, and refuse to buy (as leverage), but that right imposes no obligation on the car lot whatsoever.

 

[Containment]

I'm not totally sure if this is part of it but I think protesting has become trendy and it is in fact a fad now. If that can even happen?? Yes I think the 70s are back can't wait for woodstock 10 or what ever it's at now. The best part is soon we will all be in home made clothes that look amazing at the time but will result in many pictures burned 15 years later so that nobody can see us wearing them.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Yes, exactly. Far more than the phrase "collective bargaining" generically means. And failure of an employer to agree to employee demands does not constitute violating their right to collectively negotiate for them. Neither would a refusal of an employer to negotiate at all.

I have the right to negotiate for a lower price at a car lot, and refuse to buy (as leverage), but that right imposes no obligation on the car lot whatsoever.

Interesting! Thanks!

Got a photo of inside the capitol building below

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

State Sens. Spencer Coggs (D-Milwaukee) Jon Erpenbach (D-Fitchburg) said Thursday all 14 Senate Democrats had left Wisconsin Thursday to avoid being forcibly returned to the Capitol to vote on Gov. Scott Walker's proposed elimination of public worker bargaining rights.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/116426009.html

 

[WhoWee]

What do the voters think about the Democrats avoiding the debate?

http://www.aolnews.com/2011/02/17/wisconsin-senate-vote-on-anti-union-bill/

"A group of Wisconsin lawmakers blocked passage of a sweeping anti-union bill Thursday by ignoring orders to attend a vote and instead left the state to force Republicans to negotiate over the proposal.

As ever-growing throngs of protesters filled the Capitol for a third day, the 14 Democrats disappeared from the Capitol. They were not in their offices, and aides said they did not know where any of them had gone.

Hours later, one of them told The Associated Press that the group had left Wisconsin.

Sen. Jon Erpenbach said Democrats fled to slow down consideration of the bill in the hopes that Republican Gov. Scott Walker and GOP lawmakers would discuss changes."

Personally, I think people in the Great Lakes/Rustbelt are fed up with Unions in general. IMO - teacher's should be subject to review and share responsibility in the decline of our schools. Additionally, I still can't understand why any Government workers need protection from their employer?

(we posted at the same time)

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

What do the voters think about the Democrats avoiding the debate?

Not surprising the union voters are calling them patriots. I hope the majority call them out.

Personally, I think people in the Great Lakes/Rustbelt are fed up with Unions in general. IMO - teacher's should be subject to review and share responsibility in the decline of our schools. Additionally, I still can't understand why any Government workers need protection from their employer?

(we posted at the same time)

A lot of it is feelings of entitlement and appeals to emotion. Many are seeing this as a forecast for other states that might start moving on similar measures. The bill will likely pass, but I wonder how long the protests will continue and what happens then.

 

[Proton Soup]

did the teachers' union have a contract that guaranteed the benefits?

i can see the state opting to not provide benefits going forward to new hires, but if they made a financial obligation to the union, then it seems like they should be willing to sell some assets to make up the difference.

scuttling of pensions has always seemed a scummy practice to me. if anything, the employees should at least be able to recover the equity in the enterprise when a business is involved.

 

[WhoWee]

The Dept of Labor released their report on unions recently:

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm

"Highlights from the 2010 data:

--The union membership rate for public sector workers (36.2 percent) was
substantially higher than the rate for private sector workers (6.9 percent).
(See table 3.)

--Workers in education, training, and library occupations had the highest
unionization rate at 37.1 percent. (See table 3.)

--Black workers were more likely to be union members than were white, Asian,
or Hispanic workers. (See table 1.)

--Among states, New York had the highest union membership rate (24.2 percent)
and North Carolina had the lowest rate (3.2 percent). (See table 5.)"

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

As ever-growing throngs of protesters filled the Capitol for a third day, the 14 Democrats disappeared from the Capitol. They were not in their offices, and aides said they did not know where any of them had gone.

http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/116390569.html

They were just found in a Best Western in Rockford IL. Unbelievable!

 

[WhoWee]

http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/116390569.html

They were just found in a Best Western in Rockford IL. Unbelievable!

I wonder if the taxpayers are responsible for the bill - wages, bus, hotel, food, entertainment(?) - what next?

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

I wonder if the taxpayers are responsible for the bill - wages, bus, hotel, food, entertainment(?) - what next?

oh I am willing to bet we are!

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Additionally, I still can't understand why any Government workers need protection from their employer?

One person I talked to said they need it for safety. They can make demands for changes or additions to make the workplace more safe. ie. social workers might need a cellphone or police escort.

 

[WhoWee]

One person I talked to said they need it for safety. They can make demands for changes or additions to make the workplace more safe. ie. social workers might need a cellphone or police escort.

On the other hand - maybe they're thinking "Russelville Convention" Part II?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russellville_Convention

 

[Astronuc]

Not sure if people have been aware of this situation, but it's getting a bit crazy here and I'd like outside opinions on it. All my friends/family are fiercely divided on this issue and things are heating up! We had 20k+ people at the capitol yesterday. Many schools closing today due to teachers leaving to protest.

Details of the matter are in this link
http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/02/17/wisconsin.budget/index.html?hpt=T2
http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/116381289.html


Personally I don't have a problem with the benefit/wage cuts, but Walker is moving to strip collective bargaining from the labor union. Isn't that protected under the Freedom of Association?

WI Rep says "...it's like Cairo has moved to Madison these days."

AFAIK, labor laws developed after the Constitution was put in place. Collective barganing would be covered by state laws. For instance, the are some states that are 'right to work' states, as opposed to those states that have laws favoring unions.

Collective bargaining may also cover pensions, which is major issue for some states.

In our state, some government officials, both R & D, have 'retired' then continue in office. That way, they can collect a pension as well as salary, well before they reach retirement age. We have double dippers, triple dippers, and more.

One our Congressman is a retired colonel from the military. He made a point to suspend his military retirement because he's drawing a salary from Congress. That is appropriate and commendable. Apparently he's an exception. Many others, state and federal, collect one or more pensions before retirement age, while drawing a salary from a different government job.

 

[WhoWee]

In our state, some government officials, both R & D, have 'retired' then continue in office. That way, they can collect a pension as well as salary, well before they reach retirement age. We have double dippers, triple dippers, and more.

The double dipping is also a major problem in our area - with teachers. They retire and receive about 80% of their former wage - then are rehired at the starting wage (about $28,000).

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Collective bargaining may also cover pensions, which is major issue for some states.

Under the new bill pension contribution would increase from .2% to 5.8%. That is still a sweet deal!

 

[WhoWee]

Under the new bill pension contribution would increase from .2% to 5.8%. That is still a sweet deal!

I pay 100% of mine. Perhaps, I should go on strike this weekend - see if anyone feels sorry for me.

 

[ParticleGrl]

Even with the current benefit system, how many people here would work as k-12 school teachers? Admittedly, pensions that are set up so that it makes the most sense to retire and immediately got back to work should be reworked, but even with that odd perk, how many people here would work as a teacher?

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Even with the current benefit system, how many people here would work as k-12 school teachers? Admittedly, pensions that are set up so that it makes the most sense to retire and immediately got back to work should be reworked, but even with that odd perk, how many people here would work as a teacher?

Personally I can't stand other people's kids :D (I don't have any of my own, but I am sure i'd love them)

 

[Andy Resnick]

Not sure if people have been aware of this situation, but it's getting a bit crazy here and I'd like outside opinions on it. All my friends/family are fiercely divided on this issue and things are heating up! We had 20k+ people at the capitol yesterday. Many schools closing today due to teachers leaving to protest.

Details of the matter are in this link
http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/02/17/wisconsin.budget/index.html?hpt=T2
http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/116381289.html


Personally I don't have a problem with the benefit/wage cuts, but Walker is moving to strip collective bargaining from the labor union. Isn't that protected under the Freedom of Association?

WI Rep says "...it's like Cairo has moved to Madison these days."

I got an email today from the AAUP (Ohio's new government is advocating for the same thing as Wisconsin) about this. I am in the union- I can opt out and save $10 (my annual membership fee), but I would still be bound by the annual collective bargaining agreement and cannot negotiate my own employment agreement independent of the union. The law school is not unionized.

I'm not sure how I feel about it- I don't really understand how I benefit from the AAUP (although there's a lot of scary rhetoric available detailing the horrors that will occur) and I have seen how employee unions can impede progress in the workplace (NASA civil servants) by creating a two-tiered citizenry.

According to Cary Nelson (AAUP president), "The issue is self-determination: whether faculty members and other public sector employees should have the democratic right to choose their own collective destiny."

I don't know what 'collective destiny' means in the current academic environment.

I suppose eliminating collective bargaining shifts power to the administration, and I don't have confidence that the administration can determine what is best for me- what research I should pursue "to align with the strategic goals of the institution", for example. On the other hand, the AAUP (and our local union reps) often takes a very adversarial posture when a more thoughtful discussion is needed.

To be sure, employee unions can be very important- the ongoing issue with Homeland Security Presidential Directive #12 and JPL employees is a great example. But I've worked years without union protection and would have a hard time claiming the working environment was substantively worse than now.

 

[WhoWee]

The signs in the crowd make the Tea Party look pretty mild (IMO) - Mubarak, Mussolini, and Hitler - where is the outrage from the media over the lack of civility?

 

[ParticleGrl]

Its worth noting that Wisconsin was not facing a budget shortfall, and is not in need of austerity measures:

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/...udget-shortfall-to-undercut-worker-rights.php

 

[russ_watters]

A lot of it is feelings of entitlement and appeals to emotion.

I hear so much of that and other related things, it is hard for me to feel sympathy for teachers. I've heard them say they work long hours, yet few ever work more than 45 hours a week and have all summer off (most I know work summer jobs!). I've heard complaints about it taking a long time to get tenure (5 years!) mixed with complaints about the poor performance of older, burned-out teachers. Teaching really is a pretty sweet deal and in a poor economy, even sweet deals need to be on the cutting table.

I will say one legitimate complaint is the continuing education requirements. They're basically required to get phd's for the sake of getting phd's. They get paid extra for it, but it doesn't really add much value imo. So if they drop the continuing ed requirements, they could save money and save the headache for the teachers.

 

[russ_watters]

In our state, some government officials, both R & D, have 'retired' then continue in office. That way, they can collect a pension as well as salary, well before they reach retirement age. We have double dippers, triple dippers, and more.

We have a big to-do going on in Philly about that right now. When ambitious and unscrupulous people can write laws that benefit them personally, it's not surprising...despicable, though.

 

[russ_watters]

Even with the current benefit system, how many people here would work as k-12 school teachers? Admittedly, pensions that are set up so that it makes the most sense to retire and immediately got back to work should be reworked, but even with that odd perk, how many people here would work as a teacher?

I wouldn't either, but it is also more because I can't stand other people's kids and actually like engineering, not because of the salary and benefits...though my income potential is better as an engineer. My teacher-friends acknowledge that engineering is more difficult than teaching, though.

So maybe we shouldn't be comparing people on PF to teachers. How about a random office worker vs a teacher, both with a communications degree?

 

[russ_watters]

Its worth noting that Wisconsin was not facing a budget shortfall, and is not in need of austerity measures:

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/...udget-shortfall-to-undercut-worker-rights.php

Ironic he's being lambasted (it's a pretty biased article) for supporting what nationally would be considered a liberal adjenda: two different job creation incentive and a health savings account tax break. Difference is, he's trying to cut in some places while spending in others whereas Obama is just trying to spend.

This is a harbinger of things to come. We've talked before about why the US hasn't seen riots like they have in the EU. And that's the answer: they are making real cuts, doing real austerity measures and we aren't. Here's an example of an American government trying to make significant cuts and getting slammed for it.

Caveat: I can't reconcile CNN saying there is a deficit vs that article (and the Wisconsin Fiscal Bureau) saying there actually isn't.

 

[Containment]

Having someone here from there I would like to ask is there really as many people protesting as the news says? I find it hard to believe when I read it was like 10-20k people is it actually true?

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Having someone here from there I would like to ask is there really as many people protesting as the news says? I find it hard to believe when I read it was like 10-20k people is it actually true?

Today it was closer to 30k. It will be very interesting tomorrow. The capitol was closed early today and hopefully resume tomorrow with a vote if those 14 law makers show up to work.

 

[WhoWee]

Today it was closer to 30k. It will be very interesting tomorrow. The capitol was closed early today and hopefully resume tomorrow with a vote if those 14 law makers show up to work.

I saw a news report that indicated high school students were attending with their teachers, the DNC had coordinated Organizing for America (part of President Obama's ground forces in2008) from out of town?

http://nation.foxnews.com/wisconsin-protests/2011/02/17/dnc-caught-organizing-wisconsin-protests#

Perhaps the DNC should focus on efforts to convince those politicians to return from hiding and do their job?

 

[vici10]

I hear so much of that and other related things, it is hard for me to feel sympathy for teachers. I've heard them say they work long hours, yet few ever work more than 45 hours a week and have all summer off (most I know work summer jobs!). I've heard complaints about it taking a long time to get tenure (5 years!) mixed with complaints about the poor performance of older, burned-out teachers. Teaching really is a pretty sweet deal and in a poor economy, even sweet deals need to be on the cutting table.

So maybe we shouldn't be comparing people on PF to teachers.

Why not? May be it is better first to ask PF members who are teachers. For example, there is an interesting thread and FrancisZ gives an interesting insight into teacher's life and conditions of work.
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=431354&highlight=teachers&page=3"

I quote here his post #48

Well, if they don't extend the school year--which personally, I think could be ironed out a little bit better, even as is (say actually from Sept 1st to Jun 30, which it never really is)--then I am in favor of extending the day from 8am-4pm (rather than to 2:30 or 3). That seems more like a normal work day, anyhow.

Teachers usually start working at 7 am though; and also usually go well passed 3 o'clock. I used to go at least until 4 or 5 on a regular basis myself. At one insane job (getting ready for re-accreditation) I literally worked from 8am to 10pm or midnight in the school building, frequently (at least once a week). There just wasn't enough people on staff. But I did it because I loved my boss, and I believe in what we were doing. She worked just as long as I did (if not longer).


I have a sort of on fence feeling about unions. I've always worked in Catholic schools. And for the most part, they aren't unionized or have crappy unions.

The union never did much for us in the way of medical benefits or retirement; but just having the union did increase my salary to something slightly more bearable.


My personal work history compensation in Catholic schools, went like this (no lie)...


Subbing (last semester of college): $50/day.

1st full year: $21,500 (NJ; no union; terrible insurance; and we did not get paid through the summer--had to look for other work).

2nd year: $22,? (NJ; no union; terrible insurance; and we did not get paid through the summer--had to look for other work).

3rd year: $23,? (NJ; no union; terrible insurance; and we did not get paid through the summer--had to look for other work).

4th year: $25,000 (NJ; no union; terrible insurance; and we did not get paid through the summer--had to look for other work).

5th year: $27,000 (NJ; no union; terrible insurance; and we did not get paid through the summer--had to look for other work).


6th year: $44,000 (NY; weak union; terrible insurance; and I did get paid through the summer, but the school actually stiffed me--I got something closer to $38k or $39k).

7th year: $52,? (NY; weak union; terrible insurance; but did not get paid through the summer, and also got stiffed--something like $39k again).

Subbing again: $75/day.

Teachers in public schools make more I'm told. Coincidence? They have a strong union. I also think people who don't really deserve it--because you can tell that they're lazy and uncaring--get paid very well in many cases.

So without unions, teachers are paid 20,000-30,000 per year. If Americans think that their children should be educated by people who paid this amount of money then yes, go ahead and forbid them to unionize.

 

[WhoWee]

So without unions, teachers are paid 20,000-30,000 per year. If Americans think that their children should be educated by people who paid this amount of money then yes, go ahead and forbid them to unionize.

Your data does not match your conclusion. The lowest amount I see is $21,500 - at least 8 years ago (perhaps longer?). Also, did changing states have something to do with the pay raise (NJ to NY)? Last, just out of curiosity - why is she now subbing at $75 per day? Did she retire - now engaged in "double-dipping"?

 

[nismaratwork]

Not sure if people have been aware of this situation, but it's getting a bit crazy here and I'd like outside opinions on it. All my friends/family are fiercely divided on this issue and things are heating up! We had 20k+ people at the capitol yesterday. Many schools closing today due to teachers leaving to protest.

Details of the matter are in this link
http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/02/17/wisconsin.budget/index.html?hpt=T2
http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/116381289.html


Personally I don't have a problem with the benefit/wage cuts, but Walker is moving to strip collective bargaining from the labor union. Isn't that protected under the Freedom of Association?

WI Rep says "...it's like Cairo has moved to Madison these days."

I deplore the rhetoric, but not as much as I do an attempt to destroy the powerbase of the opposition in the name of saving money.

doubling input to pensions, I truly don't know, but we've already SEEN what a lack of collective bargaining does, and it isn't preferable to work under those conditions.

Still.. Cairo? When local police start to kill protestors in running street battles, then yeah, I'll buy that. I don't see how that kind of comparison from a state rep does anything to bring parties to the table. In the meantime, 3 days of missed school has one DEFINITE effect: it's bad for kids, and it will have to be made up.

If Democrats put a provision to disallow corporations from participating in the political process, even indirectly, under the rubric of 'saving money'... I can't imagine a better outcome.